Beyond Brutality

[heb13-13]

Hi Rick,

I'm so glad you took time to share your ideas with me...
I did not say Christians were killing people, even though Christian history is full of violence and brutality (Crusades, Inquisition, ect.). My big point which it seems you have missed is that the biblical solution to man's wickedness is "brutality", hence the title "Beyond Brutality".

You said: "Every occurrence in the Bible of "violent" has to do with man and not God. Then there is this but Jesus is not talking about being violent to others. " I think you have got it backwards...almost every occurrence of violence in the Bible was DIRECTED BY GOD, and man either carried out Gods commands, or was the victim of it! You say that Jesus is not talking about being violent to others...what about this!

Rev.19:13-15 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

Which is just one of the many violent passages.


So glad you asked what I would have done...

If I were goddess Rose, creator of the heavens and the earth, having all power at my finger tips, I would have created people with INCORRUPTIBLE hearts of kindness...just like God's heart is suppose to be.

Obviously we all know God's plan has not worked yet, so maybe it's time to wonder why the biblical God has not been able to figure out how to alleviate wickedness?

With much kindness to you my friend,
goddess Rose

Hi Rose,

And why do you think that God did not create "incorruptible hearts of kindness"? The movie "Stepford Wives" comes to mind.

Because that is your answer, it reveals to me that you don't understand that God wants to fellowship with people who CHOSE to turn away from all the wonderful temptations of this life, including self and choose Him.

It would have been quite easy for God to make robots, don't you think? What satisfaction or fellowship would He receive from them?

Blessing to you,
Rick

[heb13-13]

Just wanted to add something else, Rose.

Once you have created your spiritual Barbie doll with the incorruptible heart, you would never know if Barbie loves you or not.

You would only know that she serves you because she has no choice. You programmed her that way.

As difficult as it is to raise children, if I had the choice when they were born to give them the "incorruptible serum" or not, I would have easily chosen NO, with absolutely no hesitation. That would have robbed me of true fellowship and companionship and love. It would have robbed them of the same things. In addition I and my children would not of had the benefit of growing through mistakes and trials. Our love for each other would never have been tested, and so it never would have grown.

God is after something, Rose. He will present a Bride to His Son that is not Pre-programmed but one that chose to love Him above all else.

The Bride and the Bridegroom will have the same heart for each other.

This is what God is doing on the earth. He is calling a people to Himself not building robots or dolls in a factory.

I'm sorry but your idea is no improvement on His plan.

And if you believe that, what would you do if you were Queen of the earth?

Blessings to you,
Rick

[Rose]

Just wanted to add something else, Rose.

Once you have created your spiritual Barbie doll with the incorruptible heart, you would never know if Barbie loves you or not.

You would only know that she serves you because she has no choice. You programmed her that way.

As difficult as it is to raise children, if I had the choice when they were born to give them the "incorruptible serum" or not, I would have easily chosen NO, with absolutely no hesitation. That would have robbed me of true fellowship and companionship and love. It would have robbed them of the same things. In addition I and my children would not of had the benefit of growing through mistakes and trials. Our love for each other would never have been tested, and so it never would have grown.

God is after something, Rose. He will present a Bride to His Son that is not Pre-programmed but one that chose to love Him above all else.

The Bride and the Bridegroom will have the same heart for each other.

This is what God is doing on the earth. He is calling a people to Himself not building robots or dolls in a factory.

I'm sorry but your idea is no improvement on His plan.

And if you believe that, what would you do if you were Queen of the earth?

Blessings to you,
Rick

Hi Rick,

I like your sarcasm about the "spiritual Barbie doll"....NOT

If you believe in Hell (which the Bible teaches) then rational people don't really have a choice of whether to serve God or not, unless you want to go to eternal punishment in Hell... And besides that what about people in Heaven...they have incorruptible hearts don't they?

Your example of raising children to make their own choices really doesn't hold up because if your children don't love you you're not going to send them to life in prison where they get tortured every day for the rest of their lives...

As far as what I would do If I were Queen of the earth, I don't think that has any relevance, because being a Queen is nothing like being a creator goddess.

All the Best,

Rose

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Rose,

And why do you think that God did not create "incorruptible hearts of kindness"? The movie "Stepford Wives" comes to mind.

Because that is your answer, it reveals to me that you don't understand that God wants to fellowship with people who CHOSE to turn away from all the wonderful temptations of this life, including self and choose Him.

It would have been quite easy for God to make robots, don't you think? What satisfaction or fellowship would He receive from them?

Blessing to you,
Rick

Hey there Rick,

Your preconceived dogmas are clogging the arteries of your mind. Christ's heart was incorruptable. Was he God's "Stepford wife?" Did he have no freedom? Did he have no ability to love? And the people in heaven will have incoruptible hearts. Does that mean they will lose their free will? Will there be no love in heaven? Obviously, there is nothing in the concept of an "incorruptable heart" that implies anything like a "Stepford wife." And I guess that explains why you didn't even try to give an argument to support your false assertion.

Corruption of the heart is not a necessary prerequisite for love and fellowship. A self-cleaning heart could be analogous to an immune system. Sure, you can get infections (make wrong choices) but your antibodies will usually clean things up for you. And we have doctors to help with really bad infections. And where is your faith in the Great Physician? A human doctor who could cure a disease but does not would not be thought of as good. But you say that God can't heal people of their sin without violating their free will? That's ridiculous. God could use his wisdom and love to heal, and what sick person wouldn't want to be healed? Only the insane - but they are put in institutions and healed for their own good because of the compassion of our society. God would do no less.

Simply stated, the Christian doctrine that everyone is intrinsically evil, and that this is necessary for freedom and love, is both false and indefensible.

And you initial question to Rose could have a thousand answers that would be better than the solution of KILL KILL KILL given in the Bible.

Why is God so enamoured by violence? I think I've asked this a dozen times recently but no one has answered.

All the best,


Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Human brutality has nothing to do with the point that Rose made. She is talking about the brutality of the God of the Bible. Why are you focusing on things that neither she nor I have said and ignoring the things we have said? You posts make no sense.

It is related, which is why I asked the question which goes unanswered, "can non-violence be used if the attacker is violent?". Is it wrong for God to be brutal to evil wicked people when talking sense didn't worked or when He knew will never worked?

Yes, it is wrong for God to be brutal because he has other choices. Why do you think we "sinful people" have invented tasers? It's so we can take down violent people without killing them or even permanently injuring them in most cases. Why are people so much better and kinder than the God of the Bible? We do our best to be kind even to those who would hurt us, but God appears to take great pleasure in killing and tormenting people.

Your question makes no sense to me because it is not grammatically correct. And besdies, I don't know why are you talking about the "human authors" of the Bible since neither Rose nor I have mentioned anything about that in this thread. It looks like you are confused.

OK, let's put it in another way, what is the difference between what was written in BW book and what was quoted as being said in the BW book taking into consideration that the BW book was edited and endorsed by you? So if someone quotes from the BW book, isn't it the same as if spoken by you?

Yes, if someone quotes from the BW book, they are quoting "my words." But I have no idea what you are trying to get at or how it relates to the topic at hand.

Of course you have the "right" to your own opnion - I've never challenged that. But if your opnions contradict Christianity, why do you call yourself a Christian?

A Christian is one who believes that Jesus is the Son of God and whoever believes in Him will never dies but will receive eternal life. A Christian is one who loves God with all his heart and soul and loves his neighbor as himself, the rest and other opinions are not so important.

OK. But most Christians would isagree with you. They say the Mormons are not Christians because they believe in a "different Jesus" who is the spirit-brother of Lucifer. Do you believe that? Or do you believe it doesn't matter?

I don't know what you are talking about, I don't see Mormons as Christians for they do not use the authorized Bible. But anyway, who are we to judge them?

OK - you have narrowed down your definition of "Christian" to include only those who believe in the "Authorized Bible." Of course, Mormon's believe in the Authorized Bible. So you will have to narrow your definition some more. And that's my point - if you actually define "Christian" according to how Christians define themselves, you will find that you might not really be one! That's why I kept asking you what your pastor and your friends at church thought about your ideas. I was trying to help you see that your ideas are very different from what most "Christians" believe. But you said you "don't give a damn" so we can just drop this point I guess.

You're confused again. I didn't ask if you agreed with your pastor. I asked if you say "I don't give a damn" in church and what your pastor would say if you did. Why do I constantly have to repeat my questions?

When I said, "I don't give a damn" means I wouldn't in bother what other people says about me.

That doesn't answer my question. Do you say thinkgs like "I don't give a damn" in church?

If kiliing and brutality is not the best way to rid the world of evil, then what do you think is the best way? If someone is charging at you suddenly with a knife what do you do? ...talk sense to him? or fight with him? kill him in self-defense? It is not entirely true that Yahweh love violence and brutality so much; didn't He tried to talk sense to Job, Jonah, David? Didn't He forgave Hezekiah, Rahab? Isn't it possible that killing was used by God as a form of punishment with the intention to resurrect or forgive their trespasses at a later time? Is this cruel? Please answer the question.

There are times we humans must use violence to protect ourselve and others. But if I were God, I would not need violence because I would have many other ways. I could just cause their legs to grow weak and make them sit there and think about things for a while. I could enlighten their minds to truth so they didn't want to harm others. I could be like a kind loving mother who embraces them and helps them see the errors of thier ways. I could do anything if I were God, so I know I would not act like a brutal Bronze age tribal war god!

I believe God's brutality was against evil wicked people for the good of God's own people. Brutal humans did it for selfish reasons such as to protect his own regime, greed, for power and riches etc. I would not want to worship a weak soft God, would you? isn't fear of Gd is the beginning of wisdom? Didn't Jesus said we worship what we know, you worship what you do not know":

John 4:22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.'


God Blessings to all.

So you get off on a worshipping a macho war god? Great. Go for it. Just don't try to preach that God is good and kind while you're at it. The two don't go together.

[heb13-13]

Hi Rick,

I like your sarcasm about the "spiritual Barbie doll"....NOT

If you believe in Hell (which the Bible teaches) then rational people don't really have a choice of whether to serve God or not, unless you want to go to eternal punishment in Hell... And besides that what about people in Heaven...they have incorruptible hearts don't they?

Your example of raising children to make their own choices really doesn't hold up because if your children don't love you you're not going to send them to life in prison where they get tortured every day for the rest of their lives...

As far as what I would do If I were Queen of the earth, I don't think that has any relevance, because being a Queen is nothing like being a creator goddess.

All the Best,

Rose

Hi Rose,

I do believe in what the Bible teaches, of course. I don't pick and choose. But, I know people that are proud to say that they are going to hell. They have a pride about being a "hell raiser". It is absolutely not a deterrent to them. And it is not a deterrent to most people, because it is a well known fact that the Bible teaches about it and it is also a well known fact that most people live their lives not caring about Hell. And many of these people believe themselves to be rational.

Yes, the people in heaven have incorruptible hearts, they have put on incorruption. They have been perfected in love. But you have put the cart before the horse. You would give a person an incorruptible heart right when they are created. That is tantamount to making a doll for yourself. Most people don't like sarcasm, and I only used it to make the point that you don't create something to love you if it has no choice to hate you. And a doll is actually a good example, because it is the object of your affection but how can YOU be an object of the doll's affection?

No, of course I don't torture my children or threaten them with hell, but neither do I want to inject them with "incorruptible serum". And, it is always their choice on earth if they want to honor their Mom and Dad or love God or not. And it is still a parent's responsibility to train their children when they are young. That is love. You don't have children and leave them to themselves. God trains His children, too. But both children on earth and children of God have been allowed to retain their choices.

If people choose a life of crime then when they are arrested and put in prison they have no one to blame but themselves, right? In other words their choices put them in prison. You could say they chose prison, because those are the consequences. And some even get the death sentence. In Christ, God has not rewarded us according to the multitude of our transgressions. But the key word is IN CHRIST. Now, I don't know what happens to those who never heard of Christ, but I don't have any insecurity with my lack of knowledge, either. However, I have great security in knowing that God is a just and righteous God and I know this rankles people to no end because they want to know the answers to all these questions about OTHERS, hoping that they might get an answer that will excuse them.

God is not a co-dependent enabler. Grace came through Jesus Christ, but also Truth. The Lord's desire is not for us to go through life blaming everyone and Him for our troubles. I can talk more about co-dependency but maybe later in some other thread.

When someone says, "I don't care about God, I don't want to serve Him and I don't care if He loves me, I just want to party and have a good time on earth", is anyone making him say that? Is anyone coercing him to make that decision? The decision is all his doing. Some day, he may come to his senses, though. Sometimes, a person has to go through a lot to come to their senses.

Regarding the "Queen of the Earth", yes I do think it is relevant. Why? Because you vilify the God of the Old Testament, and I would like to know what you would have done when "the imagination of every man was only evil". You strip Him of His righteousness, justice, and mercy and then take pot shots at Him. How would you have handled the nations around Israel that were hell bent on destroying them?

Or would man have even gotten that far? I suppose if you created them incorruptible then that never would have happened. In fact, nothing of any value would have ever happened in that world.

I'm curious whether you believe in Eugenics or not. That would be a terrific thread, don't you think?

Anyway, that's about all for now Rose, this is getting a bit long.

I hope your evening is enjoyable and that you have a great week.

All the very best to you,
Rick

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I do believe in what the Bible teaches, of course. I don't pick and choose. But, I know people that are proud to say that they are going to hell. They have a pride about being a "hell raiser". It is absolutely not a deterrent to them. And it is not a deterrent to most people, because it is a well known fact that the Bible teaches about it and it is also a well known fact that most people live their lives not caring about Hell. And many of these people believe themselves to be rational.

Hey there Rick,

Folks who say they are proud to be going to hell don't really believe in hell at all. They just say that to jerk your chain or sound cool.

Have you ever taken a moment to contemplate the reality of hell? I doubt it, since no person can remain sane and contemplate the reality of an infinite evil eternally inflicted by a supposedly loving God upon a soul he created. It is a logically incoherent concept and therefore cannot be contemplated. Any person with a living human heart who successfully apprehends its limitless horror cannot believe it is true without going insane.

If God made the knowledge of hell undeniably real to each person, there would not be one person who would choose to go there other than those who are truly insane. But then it wouldn't be right to send them to eternal punishment, since even we wicked humans know it's unjust to punish the mentally ill for things caused by their illness.

If the Bible teaches a hell of eternal conscious torment, then the Bible is false. This is why many Christians have rejected this doctrine. And besides, there is little Biblical support for it at all. It originated as a pagan concept and was imported into the NT.

Yes, the people in heaven have incorruptible hearts, they have put on incorruption. They have been perfected in love. But you have put the cart before the horse. You would give a person an incorruptible heart right when they are created. That is tantamount to making a doll for yourself. Most people don't like sarcasm, and I only used it to make the point that you don't create something to love you if it has no choice to hate you. And a doll is actually a good example, because it is the object of your affection but how can YOU be an object of the doll's affection?

So you admit that the idea of an incorruptible heart is not contrary to freedom. That's progress. But now you say that it is logically necessary to have a corruptible heart long enough for a person to make a free choice to love God, and then God can "perfect" their heart in love. What then happens to their freedom? How then can they really love God if they now have an incorruptible heart? If ever there were an argument designed to reach a preconceived conclusion, this is it. No one really knows enough about the nature of "incorruptible hearts" to say that it would require a period of corruptibility to allow for freedom before the perfection of the heart in love. And beside, your argument implies a lack of freedom after the perfection, so it doesn't really work anyway. It looks to me like you are just making up abstruse philosophical arguments to justify the Biblical image of God. The problem is that such abstract and uncertain philosophy will never convince anyone who can see the plain and obvious problems with the Biblical doctrines. The lucidity of the answer needs to match the lucidity of the problem.

Let's get back to reality. The real issue has nothing to do with "incorruptible hearts." That was just Rose's first stab at the question about how she would create the universe if she were God. So let's go back to that question. Here is my take on it:

If I were God, I would interact with my people in whatever way required to let them know that I am real and they are loved. I would not allow them to pray and beg and plead day after day for years and years for simple things like bread and water. I would feed them and love them. I would not neglect them until they become starving and desperate for basic needs like food and water. And I would never teach them to do violence like the God of the Bible. I would teach them in true righteousness. I would not inspire a book so confused that no one has half a clue what it means, and which lets them make up whatever doctrines they like. It would be clear, lucid, and full of divine wisdom. I would never allow them to murder whole villages and then to take 32,000 virgins! I would never starve my people for three years with no explanation until the king finally got around to asking me "What's up with the famine?" -

Then there was a famine in the days of David three years, year after year; and David enquired of the LORD. And the LORD answered, It is for Saul, and for his bloody house, because he slew the Gibeonites.

I would never punish a whole people because of something done by a previous king! What kind of madness is this? And I would never be appeased by the murder of that kings children who had nothing to do with his crimes:

Then there was a famine in the days of David three years, year after year; and David enquired of the LORD. And the LORD answered, It is for Saul, and for his bloody house, because he slew the Gibeonites.

Indeed, if I were God, I would not have chosen Saul to be king at all!

And if I were God, I would not have delivered the entire tribe of Benjamin into the hands of the other tribes so that they could murder every man, woman, and child of the very people I supposedly redeemed! And neither would I have allowed them to murder all the men, women, and children - except the virgins - of the Israeli town of Jabesh-Gilead to supply wives to the 600 remaining soldiers of Benjamin.

How long of a list do you want? If I were God, I would be wise and kind and good and I would lead my people in righteousness, not endless bloody murder! There are a thousand things the Bible says God did that I would not have done. You seem to be forgetting that the Bible portrays God like a brutal Bronze age tribal war god. No 21st century man would aspire to be like him.

No, of course I don't torture my children or threaten them with hell, but neither do I want to inject them with "incorruptible serum". And, it is always their choice on earth if they want to honor their Mom and Dad or love God or not. And it is still a parent's responsibility to train their children when they are young. That is love. You don't have children and leave them to themselves. God trains His children, too. But both children on earth and children of God have been allowed to retain their choices.

You have hit the nail on the head. I remember a conversation long ago with a devout Christian brother who confessed he was having bad thoughts about God because he looks like an absentee father. I had no answer then, and I have no answer now. There is no direct evidence of God at all. At best, folks can formulate very unsatisfying philosophical arguments for his "apparent" absence as "a parent."

If people choose a life of crime then when they are arrested and put in prison they have no one to blame but themselves, right? In other words their choices put them in prison. You could say they chose prison, because those are the consequences. And some even get the death sentence.

There is flaw in your logic. If all criminals were criminals by choice, we would not see the gross racial imbalance in our prisons, unless you want to argue that "choice" is genetically or culturally determined - but if that's the case, it's no longer the individual's moral choice, is it?

And besides, justice demands that the punishment fit the crime. No amount of finite sin justifies an infinite punishment of eternal conscious torment in hell.

In Christ, God has not rewarded us according to the multitude of our transgressions. But the key word is IN CHRIST. Now, I don't know what happens to those who never heard of Christ, but I don't have any insecurity with my lack of knowledge, either. However, I have great security in knowing that God is a just and righteous God and I know this rankles people to no end because they want to know the answers to all these questions about OTHERS, hoping that they might get an answer that will excuse them.

Why do you think God is just? Do you have any evidence of that? And why do you think it would be just for you to suffer eternal conscious torment if you failed to make the right "choice" to trust Jesus? Sounds a bit "unloving" if you ask me.

When someone says, "I don't care about God, I don't want to serve Him and I don't care if He loves me, I just want to party and have a good time on earth", is anyone making him say that? Is anyone coercing him to make that decision? The decision is all his doing. Some day, he may come to his senses, though. Sometimes, a person has to go through a lot to come to their senses.

And does his enjoyment of this life mean that he deserves eternal conscious torment?

Regarding the "Queen of the Earth", yes I do think it is relevant. Why? Because you vilify the God of the Old Testament, and I would like to know what you would have done when "the imagination of every man was only evil". You strip Him of His righteousness, justice, and mercy and then take pot shots at Him. How would you have handled the nations around Israel that were hell bent on destroying them?

I wouldn't have set up our first parents with a Tree of Death that I designed to corrupt their hearts and the hearts of their children. All the evil in the world is a direct result of God setting up the Tree of Death in the Garden to corrupt the heart of all his creatures. Have you never noticed this?

I think we would make a lot more progress if we focused on one issue at a time. I know that's hard - conversations always digress into so many different paths. I love that, but I also would like to see if we could focus on one thing long enough to come to some kind of agreement. Otherwise, we might just get frustrated because we feel like we don't agree on anything.

Great chatting!

Richard

[heb13-13]

[QUOTE=RAM;36123]Hey there Rick,

Folks who say they are proud to be going to hell don't really believe in hell at all. They just say that to jerk your chain or sound cool. [quote]

Really?

Have you ever taken a moment to contemplate the reality of hell? I doubt it, since no person can remain sane and contemplate the reality of an infinite evil eternally inflicted by a supposedly loving God upon a soul he created. It is a logically incoherent concept and therefore cannot be contemplated. Any person with a living human heart who successfully apprehends its limitless horror cannot believe it is true without going insane.

This paragraph above and the one below contradict each other. In the one above it sounds like you successfully apprehended its horror.

In the paragraph below, it sounds like God has not made it real to each person.

If God made the knowledge of hell undeniably real to each person, there would not be one person who would choose to go there other than those who are truly insane. But then it wouldn't be right to send them to eternal punishment, since even we wicked humans know it's unjust to punish the mentally ill for things caused by their illness.

Are you saying that men that do wicked acts are not rational? What is rational and what is a definition of a wicked act?

If the Bible teaches a hell of eternal conscious torment, then the Bible is false. This is why many Christians have rejected this doctrine. And besides, there is little Biblical support for it at all. It originated as a pagan concept and was imported into the NT.

Richard, will you always think if something is not logical to you that it cannot possibly exist? Your opinion or Jesus' and the Apostles? Hmmm, let me think about that.

So you admit that the idea of an incorruptible heart is not contrary to freedom. That's progress. But now you say that it is logically necessary to have a corruptible heart long enough for a person to make a free choice to love God, and then God can "perfect" their heart in love. What then happens to their freedom? How then can they really love God if they now have an incorruptible heart?

This is really simple Richard. We are perfected in love by suffering. Adam and Eve were unwilling to suffer (deny the flesh). But the start of being perfected in love is having the incorruptible seed sown in us by the Holy Spirit when we are born-again.

Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. (1Pe 1:23)

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: (1Pe 1:22)

Sanctification and purification is a walk, Richard. Starts down here. We are being perfected in love and changed into His likeness as we choose to be perfected in love and suffer for His sake. Eternity is a continuation of who we are on earth, yet no more suffering, sin or temptation. We have already chosen to love God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength on earth and are presently walking it out (being changed into His likeness, abiding in Him and thus bearing fruit, godly character).

If ever there were an argument designed to reach a preconceived conclusion, this is it. No one really knows enough about the nature of "incorruptible hearts" to say that it would require a period of corruptibility to allow for freedom before the perfection of the heart in love. And beside, your argument implies a lack of freedom after the perfection, so it doesn't really work anyway.

We have our freedom right now. We are being tested and proven right now with the freedom we have.

It looks to me like you are just making up abstruse philosophical arguments to justify the Biblical image of God. The problem is that such abstract and uncertain philosophy will never convince anyone who can see the plain and obvious problems with the Biblical doctrines. The lucidity of the answer needs to match the lucidity of the problem.

Let's get back to reality. The real issue has nothing to do with "incorruptible hearts." That was just Rose's first stab at the question about how she would create the universe if she were God. So let's go back to that question. Here is my take on it:

Yeah, I won't hold her to it (her first stab). It's not easy to improve on what God has done. I have never seen anyone come up with a better plan of redemption or explanation of God, present existence and eternal things. Obviously, no one can. And if people need more proof than the Holy Spirit within, it also proves that man could not have invented the words in the Bible, because if they could and did, then they can also make a better story, which they can't and haven't.

If I were God, I would interact with my people in whatever way required to let them know that I am real and they are loved. I would not allow them to pray and beg and plead day after day for years and years for simple things like bread and water. I would feed them and love them. I would not neglect them until they become starving and desperate for basic needs like food and water.

So, then with you we would be more like pets. What happens when they are not satisifed with "simple things" like bread and water? Would you always give them whatever they wanted regardless of their behavior or constantly straying heart to other enticing things such as better food than you give, or cleaner water. How do you deal with their basic corruptible and idol-making, lust straying heart? If we are going to talk about reality, let's talk about man. He is real. You're a man and I'm a man. We both know what is in man's heart, or we should.

God's plan is more than just feeding and watering His creation and being there for their every beck and call like they are pets.

What you don't see or understand or just don't want to believe in are God's ways for us (men made in His image) and what He must do for fallen man to help us to see His ways and become like Him.

I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings. (Jer 17:10)

I can't search my dog's heart and certainly can't help him to be like me. I am happy with him just the way he is. And he is not fallen, doesn't stray from me, is not contemplating any rebellion and doesn't want to take my place in life. He has never once tried to kick me out of my bed and stick me in his dog house.

He wants to interact with us and have deep fellowship with us. Not just clothe and feed us. And I don't just want to be taken care of! I want to KNOW HIM, too. Does that count for anything? What if I get bored with just being clothed and fed? Ok, then He gives me a big house. Bored again. Ok, then He gives me a fast car (after all He loves me, right). Then, I'm bored again but I have figured out by now that there is no suffering involved in this relationship and He does not want me to FEEL BAD, so when I get bored again and my flesh wants something else, then I come to Him and ask for something else. And on and on it goes.

So, I ask you, am I becoming like Him? Was this the life of Christ? No. Will this conform me to the image of Christ? I doubt it. Will I get to know His heart if He trains me to be a whiner and a spoiled little brat? Chances are when you give someone everything they want and don't withhold anything from them, they will take advantage of your "love".

We shift blame to God all the time because we don't understand His ways.

And I would never teach them to do violence like the God of the Bible. I would teach them in true righteousness. I would not inspire a book so confused that no one has half a clue what it means, and which lets them make up whatever doctrines they like. It would be clear, lucid, and full of divine wisdom. I would never allow them to murder whole villages and then to take 32,000 virgins! I would never starve my people for three years with no explanation until the king finally got around to asking me "What's up with the famine?" -

Then there was a famine in the days of David three years, year after year; and David enquired of the LORD. And the LORD answered, It is for Saul, and for his bloody house, because he slew the Gibeonites.

I would never punish a whole people because of something done by a previous king! What kind of madness is this? And I would never be appeased by the murder of that kings children who had nothing to do with his crimes:

Then there was a famine in the days of David three years, year after year; and David enquired of the LORD. And the LORD answered, It is for Saul, and for his bloody house, because he slew the Gibeonites.

Indeed, if I were God, I would not have chosen Saul to be king at all!

And if I were God, I would not have delivered the entire tribe of Benjamin into the hands of the other tribes so that they could murder every man, woman, and child of the very people I supposedly redeemed! And neither would I have allowed them to murder all the men, women, and children - except the virgins - of the Israeli town of Jabesh-Gilead to supply wives to the 600 remaining soldiers of Benjamin.

How long of a list do you want? If I were God, I would be wise and kind and good and I would lead my people in righteousness, not endless bloody murder! There are a thousand things the Bible says God did that I would not have done. You seem to be forgetting that the Bible portrays God like a brutal Bronze age tribal war god. No 21st century man would aspire to be like him.

I see what you would you do and you are assuming that man would follow you without hesitation? That they would control the lust of their eyes, lust of their flesh and their pride of life. What if you had an Absalom in your midst and he tried to take your throne. What would you do?

What would you do if some of your people broke off from you because they were tired of being good and righteous and lovey-dovey and wanted to party all day and all night. Would you let them? And a hundred years later they grow into their own populous nation and decide to come and kill all the people that did decide to follow you. How would you handle that? What would you do about trouble in your kingdom? What if most of your subjects said, "this is boring and those others guys look like they are having much more fun than us", and took off? What if everyone deserted you? What would you do to bring man back to you?

Gee, it doesn't seem easy being a King and getting people to follow you willingly and choose to suffer. In fact, some of your subjects even want to kill you.

You have hit the nail on the head. I remember a conversation long ago with a devout Christian brother who confessed he was having bad thoughts about God because he looks like an absentee father. I had no answer then, and I have no answer now. There is no direct evidence of God at all. At best, folks can formulate very unsatisfying philosophical arguments for his "apparent" absence as "a parent."

Well Richard, there is no evidence to the man that refuses to see it. Logic is not the keenest sense that we have, you know.

There is flaw in your logic. If all criminals were criminals by choice, we would not see the gross racial imbalance in our prisons, unless you want to argue that "choice" is genetically or culturally determined - but if that's the case, it's no longer the individual's moral choice, is it?

And besides, justice demands that the punishment fit the crime. No amount of finite sin justifies an infinite punishment of eternal conscious torment in hell.

Why do you think God is just? Do you have any evidence of that? And why do you think it would be just for you to suffer eternal conscious torment if you failed to make the right "choice" to trust Jesus? Sounds a bit "unloving" if you ask me.

Actually, I don't think He is that just, in this respect. I was a hater and blasphemer of God and Jesus Christ. What use did He have for me? Why did He bother with extending His hand (His Son) to me? Why. Was that JUST. I don't think so. I think it was MERCIFUL and LOVING, though and I want to be that way towards others. I want to be like Jesus. I have never met anyone like Him.

When I came before the JUDGE, He threw the book at me. But to my surprise, the Judge came down from His seat, took off His robes and then took my sentence, letting me go free. How JUST is that? But I could have refused Him taking my place, but I didn't.

And does his enjoyment of this life mean that he deserves eternal conscious torment?

I wouldn't have set up our first parents with a Tree of Death that I designed to corrupt their hearts and the hearts of their children. All the evil in the world is a direct result of God setting up the Tree of Death in the Garden to corrupt the heart of all his creatures. Have you never noticed this?

I think we would make a lot more progress if we focused on one issue at a time. I know that's hard - conversations always digress into so many different paths. I love that, but I also would like to see if we could focus on one thing long enough to come to some kind of agreement. Otherwise, we might just get frustrated because we feel like we don't agree on anything.

I am going to close with this because I am just plain tired (pooped-out).

"Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?" (Eze 18:23)


"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye
from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"(Eze 33:11)

I love your forum and chatting with you. It causes me to see how wonderful and good my Lord Jesus is.

Rick

Great chatting!

Richard

[heb13-13]

Hey Richard and Rose,

I meant to ask you whether you think Jesus is a rational person?

I think from most of your statements you would probably say no.

Would that be correct?

Thanks,
Rick

[culi26]

.[/INDENT]Why is it that many secular humanists in this modern day and age are seeking peaceful means to try and bring harmony to the world.

I agree with you completely that we must live in a world where peace reigns. But how can we achieve this??!!
There is no permanent solution!!

Why there is no permanent solution?! Because people have different ideologies as individuals, different cultures as societies and different religions!

Can we be tolerant of each other? YES, WE CAN, but we don't want it!! Whenever a group wants peace will exist another group that wants war!!
The man always thinks that his ideology, culture and religion are better choice for other communities.
And this always brings conflicts between individuals or societies!!

But i totally disagree with you that many secular humanists in this modern day and age are seeking peaceful means to try and bring harmony to the world.

These secular humanist if we can call them so, are trying to put a system in our midst that they are thinking it is better for us. But this is what they want, and there are people who accept their ideology!! But, what about the rest??!

Exactly these secular humanist are the reason of so many conflicts that are happening! Why??! Because this secular humanist are not from nowadays, Yes-the people are changing, but their aim is scheduled much earlier!

The purpose of the First and Second World Wars was precisely to create an anarchy that will rule the world! Their idea failed! They realized that with the violence is not easy to achieve that, so they turned against Hitler and were presented themselves to the world as people who fight for peace!

Everything that is not reached through violence, now they are reaching through the so-called peace!! We are hearing the word "Peace" so often, but we have forgotten what is peace!!

Rose, their peace means bloodshed!!

Hast thou not understand that in the name of "peace" people were killed!! Only U.S.A. in the last 50 years in the name of so called peace killed more than 8 million people!