Henry's Question regarding Daniel 9 "Causes the Sacrifice to Cease"

[TheForgiven]

Hummm ... I'm using IE 9 and have no problems with editing in quick edit or in advanced. I suppose there could be a bug related to permissions. I'm administrator so maybe it lets me do thing you plebes are allowed. It looks like one more bug for me to research.

Well I say Mast-uh, is you go'n to take care of dem bugs for us? I'm just a simple man Mast-uh, so I sho appreciate any help you got.

Joe

[Brother Les]

Joe
I'm not one to tell people to keep searching through endless threads and posts to find previous answers. I believe answers should be given anytime it is asked, not matter how many times, in order to reduce confusion.

You are to kind to 'some' for the abuse that has been given over time, Saint Joe.....

You know that the question by 2 was a jab and your answer to him will still not hold water for him....

Blessing Joe.


Spell check....hummmm, novell idea

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Novell

[Edward Goodie]

Hummm ... I'm using IE 9 and have no problems with editing in quick edit or in advanced. I suppose there could be a bug related to permissions. I'm administrator so maybe it lets me do thing you plebes are allowed. It looks like one more bug for me to research.

All hail to RAM the Patrician, All hail to RAM the Patrician, All hail to RAM the Patrician...

[Richard Amiel McGough]

All hail to RAM the Patrician, All hail to RAM the Patrician, All hail to RAM the Patrician...

Finally! I was wondering if I was every going to get any respect around here!

You now have access to the secret chambers of the Bible Wheel forum, my faithful servant TS!

[TheForgiven]

You guys are funny!

So now that Harold Camping is been proven once again to be a false Prophet, anyone know the status of his medical condition? I've heard that he suffered a stroke or something. Probably couldn't take the heat from being so so so so wrong. Not wishing anything ill on him, but you reap what you sow.

And Richard? I respect you bro. I am beneath you, the mighty moderator of all moderator's; the wheel of all wheels; the forum of all forums. YOU should be the next FACEBOOK my friend. Oh yes, it will happen. Just remember me, your lowly peasant when the fortunes of wealth and prosperity come knocking down your door; I'll be standing their begging for money. LOL!

Joe

[Richard Amiel McGough]

You guys are funny!

So now that Harold Camping is been proven once again to be a false Prophet, anyone know the status of his medical condition? I've heard that he suffered a stroke or something. Probably couldn't take the heat from being so so so so wrong. Not wishing anything ill on him, but you reap what you sow.

Yes, he had a "minor stroke." I listened to a brief recording of him repeating his prediction of the Oct 21 end of the world that he gave after his stroke. Funny thing is, it's still on his website! His speech is slured, but not too bad.

I don't think he had the stroke because of other people giving him heat, but because his own mind blew a gasket as he was attempting the impossible task of justifying himself to himself. He knows that he is a liar and false prophet and that's just not acceptible to him. He refuses to admit the truth. He has not yet made any public statement concernign his exceedingly public failed predictions. He is one of the most arrogant men who has ever lived. People have been trying to show him the errors in his teachings for many decades, but he just brushed them off and continued claiming he was right. Reality finally knocked him off his high horse. I'm really glad he didn't die. It's good for his soul to sit in the knowledge that he lied for so many years.

And Richard? I respect you bro. I am beneath you, the mighty moderator of all moderator's; the wheel of all wheels; the forum of all forums. YOU should be the next FACEBOOK my friend. Oh yes, it will happen. Just remember me, your lowly peasant when the fortunes of wealth and prosperity come knocking down your door; I'll be standing their begging for money. LOL!

Joe

Dude! I do believe you have slightly overstated your admiration. Now the gods are going to have to give me the pox or something! Thanks a lot!



I do have a Facebook account - http://www.facebook.com/#!/richard.a.mcgough

Why don't you friend me?

[Twospirits]

TheForgiven wrote,

So to answer your question, it was the Messiah Jesus who caused the sacrifices and drink offerings to be done away with. I know this text reads "taken away", but not all translations say this. Now as a result of what happened, Jesus dying on the cross, the remainder of the verse explains that the temple would be destroyed at the time of the end, and an end would be brought to the Desolation thereof.

I know that all preterists in general see Dan. 24:27 as fulfilled by Christ, but that wasn't my question. My question concerns the prophecy of the abomination that is tied together with the 'ceasing of the sacrifices.' Let me re-phrase the question, the 'ceasing of sacrifices' in Daniel is said to occur 3 ½ + years BEFORE 'the abomination' is set up. And once the abomination is set up the desolation occurs. Now from what I understand most preterists also agree that the setting up of this abomination happened during the Jewish war 66-70 A. D. which lies outside the 70 sevens.

Yet the angel tells Daniel that 70 sevens are decreed to fulfill the prophecy, this includes the city. Chapter 9 through 12 gives a general history of what leads up to the 'ceasing of sacrifices' where several years later an abomination that causes desolation is set up. This shows that the prophecy of the 'ceasing of sacrifices' spoken of in Dan. 9:27 is the same prophecy as that seen in Dan. 12:7,11,12. Thus if the 'ceasing of sacrifices' is done by Christ after his death, the abomination to be set up would have to occur several years after his death; and we know that didn't occur.

Now some preterists try to spiritualize the ceasing of sacrifices after Christ's death with the literal fulfillment occurring later by the Roman armies, but the prophecy contradicts that position. The context makes clear that it is taken away and caused to cease, literally. And besides it also contradicts Dan. 9:24, that 70 sevens are decreed for the people and city 'to finish--.' When reading Daniel 9-12 it all speaks of the people, the city, the sanctuary (v.26), the 'ceasing of sacrifices,' and 'abomination of desolation' Dan. 9:27; 12:7,11,12 all occurring 'within' the 70 weeks of Daniel.


As I said in the other thread, my question is not to get in a deep discussion, or argument with Daniel 9-12 here (unless you wish to continue it), but to simply get an answer to this question. Because there's clearly a problem as to "when" preterists see this prophecy fulfilled (it can't be both, spiritual, then later literal) since this prophecy concerns Mt. 24:15 and Mark 13:14. This was my main reason for asking.

Readers, your thoughts on this?

God bless---Twospirits

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I know that all preterists in general see Dan. 24:27 as fulfilled by Christ, but that wasn't my question. My question concerns the prophecy of the abomination that is tied together with the “ceasing of the sacrifices.” Let me re-phrase the question, the “ceasing of sacrifices” in Daniel is said to occur 3 ½ + years BEFORE “the abomination” is set up. And once the abomination is set up the desolation occurs. Now from what I understand most preterists also agree that the setting up of this abomination happened during the Jewish war 66-70 A. D. which lies outside the 70 sevens.

Yet the angel tells Daniel that 70 sevens are decreed to fulfill the prophecy, this includes the city. Chapter 9 through 12 gives a general history of what leads up to the “ceasing of sacrifices” where several years later an abomination that causes desolation is set up. This shows that the prophecy of the “ceasing of sacrifices” spoken of in Dan. 9:27 is the same prophecy as that seen in Dan. 12:7,11,12. Thus if the “ceasing of sacrifices” is done by Christ after his death, the abomination to be set up would have to occur several years after his death; and we know that didn't occur.

Now some preterists try to spiritualize the ceasing of sacrifices after Christ's death with the literal fulfillment occurring later by the Roman armies, but the prophecy contradicts that position. The context makes clear that it is taken away and caused to cease, literally. And besides it also contradicts Dan. 9:24, that 70 sevens are decreed for the people and city “to finish--.” When reading Daniel 9-12 it all speaks of the people, the city, the sanctuary (v.26), the “ceasing of sacrifices,” and “abomination of desolation” Dan. 9:27; 12:7,11,12 all occurring “within” the 70 weeks of Daniel.


As I said in the other thread, my question is not to get in a deep discussion, or argument with Daniel 9-12 here (unless you wish to continue it), but to simply get an answer to this question. Because there's clearly a problem as to "when" preterists see this prophecy fulfilled (it can't be both, spiritual, then later literal) since this prophecy concerns Mt. 24:15 and Mark 13:14. This was my main reason for asking.

Readers, your thoughts on this?

God bless---Twospirits

Hey there Henry,

Why did the Temple have to be destroyed? Why did Christ predict it? Because the Temple represented the dead carcase of the Old Covenant that ended when Christ was crucified and brought in the New Covenant.

So it seems to me that the sacrfices were stopped in two senses in two stages. They stopped "spiritually" (their efficacy ended) when the final sacrifice (Christ) was offered, but they continued in the physical Temple until it was destroyed in 70 AD. Seems pretty simple, really.

Great chatting,

Richard

[TheForgiven]

I know that all preterists in general see Dan. 24:27 as fulfilled by Christ, but that wasn't my question. My question concerns the prophecy of the abomination that is tied together with the 'ceasing of the sacrifices.' Let me re-phrase the question, the 'ceasing of sacrifices' in Daniel is said to occur 3 ½ + years BEFORE 'the abomination' is set up. And once the abomination is set up the desolation occurs. Now from what I understand most preterists also agree that the setting up of this abomination happened during the Jewish war 66-70 A. D. which lies outside the 70 sevens.

There's where your mistake is, in my opinion. With regards to the seventy sevens, Daniel was not told that the ceasing of the sacrifices would occur 3.5 years before the AoD; this is an assumption, but an understandable one.

The seventy sevens does not include within itself, the AoD. The AoD is something that happens outside of the seventy sevens. I know I've made this error in the past, so I don't blame anyone else for making the same mistake I made.

The seventy sevens include only the Messiah who brought in everlasting righteousness, made an end of sins, was anointed as the Most Holy, etc. etc. But the Angel never said anything about the AoD occurring within the seventy weeks; we just assume this because of the Messiah confirming the covenant, and causing the sacrifices and drink offerings to be taken away. The result of this eventually leads to the AoD, which happen at a "predetermined time". So what is predetermined is NOT determined within the 70 weeks, but outside of the seventy weeks.

Again, I know it's normal for people to assume that the AoD happens within the seventy weeks because the Angel tells Daniel, "on the wing of abominations [or on the wing of the temple as some word it] shall an end be brought to the Desolation at a predetermined time.

Yet the angel tells Daniel that 70 sevens are decreed to fulfill the prophecy, this includes the city. Chapter 9 through 12 gives a general history of what leads up to the 'ceasing of sacrifices' where several years later an abomination that causes desolation is set up. This shows that the prophecy of the 'ceasing of sacrifices' spoken of in Dan. 9:27 is the same prophecy as that seen in Dan. 12:7,11,12. Thus if the 'ceasing of sacrifices' is done by Christ after his death, the abomination to be set up would have to occur several years after his death; and we know that didn't occur.

Again, that is not correct. That is your assumption but the text does not say this. Once again, you've got to look at the text directly pointing to what happens within the seventy sevens:

24 Seventy weeks have been determined upon thy people, and upon the holy city, for sin to be ended, and to seal up transgressions, and to blot out the iniquities, and to make atonement for iniquities, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal the vision and the prophet, and to anoint the Most Holy.

See? The Angel tells Daniel that seventy weeks fulfills the following:

1. Make an end of sins
2. Seal up Transgressions
3. Blot out iniquities
4. Make atonement for iniquities
5. Bring in everlasting righteousness
6. Seal the vision and the Prophet.
7. Anoint the Most Holy (Messiah)

Nothing is mentioned about the AoD. This is something that happens outside of the seventy sevens. What caused the AoD? The Messiah being "cut off", or crucified. His crucifixion would lead to the AoD at a predetermined time outside of the seventy sevens.

Now because the AoD is mentioned in the following verse, people assume that the AoD must happen within the seventy sevens. But you've got to pay close attention:

26 And after the sixty-two weeks, the anointed one shall be destroyed, and there is no judgment in him: and he shall destroy the city and the sanctuary with the prince that is coming: they shall be cut off with a flood, and to the end of the war which is rapidly completed he shall appoint the city to desolations.

See that? After the Messiah is destroyed, he SHALL (meaning happens later) destroy the city and the sanctuary with the ruler/prince (probably Titus) that is COMING. This means that the Messiah being cutoff or killed in the middle of the final week, leads to the Messiah later destroying the temple and the city with the prince/ruler who was to come (again, probably in reference to General Titus). He then says, "they [Daniel's people] shall be cut off with a flood [of massive armies] which is rapidly completed, and the Messiah shall appoint the city to desolation's.

Thus we can see that Daniel 9 shows that seventy sevens are completed, and THEN the Messiah who was anointed, but cut-off, shall appoint Daniel's people, temple, and city to desolation's at an appointed time.

Now when you read Daniel 12, we then know that the AoD is something that happens when the daily sacrifices are taken away 3.5 years prior to the temple's destruction, or the 1335 days. Notice that the 1335 days was not reckoned with the seventy sevens? If you try forcing the AoD within the seventy sevens, then why the 1335 days? That would make no sense.

So in conclusion, it's a common error to combine the AoD with the seventy weeks, which causes even past Preterists great difficulty in harmonizing these passages. The Angel never said that the AoD happens within the seventy weeks; that's just an assumption caused from not paying close attention. I too once made this error.

Thanks for your questions my friend.

Joe

[TheForgiven]

Hey there Henry,

Why did the Temple have to be destroyed? Why did Christ predict it? Because the Temple represented the dead carcase of the Old Covenant that ended when Christ was crucified and brought in the New Covenant.

So it seems to me that the sacrfices were stopped in two senses in two stages. They stopped "spiritually" (their efficacy ended) when the final sacrifice (Christ) was offered, but they continued in the physical Temple until it was destroyed in 70 AD. Seems pretty simple, really.

Great chatting,

Richard

Hey there Richard. Must you always explain things so simple and make me look like an over-posting baboon? You're absolutely right though...shorter is better.

Joe