The fulness of the Gentiles (Romans 11:25)

[Edward Goodie]

Romans 11:25 - For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

This verse had always given me concern as to its proper understanding. In order to understand its meaning, we must first discern what is meant by Paul's usage of the word "Gentiles."

It is commonly understood that Gentile means a non-Hebrew, non-Jewish individual. That is so untrue. Granted, there are occurrences where Gentile means just that. Paul is not referring to that kind of Gentile in Romans 11 and previous chapters.

For those with open minds and having a sincere desire to learn what was truly meant by Paul, I am attaching a Word document NOT written by me, but by another individual who once held to the same definition as I did...

The connections made in Hosea to Romans 9 in regard to the promise to the house of Israel are outstanding!

It is well worth the time and effort!

[Brother Les]

I have read some of Jim Gunters stuff before (I think?). I think that it may have been on preteristarchive.com

I also have read a book by Lyyod Dale called 'The Two Wives of YHWH'. Giving the view that the 'House of Israel' (Northern) are the major make up of the 'Gentiles/Nations/Jacob by a new Name.

It is interesting what the Strongs says of the 'Gentiles/gowy' of the OT.



Lexicon Results Strong's H1471 - gowy גּוֹי
Transliteration
gowy
Pronunciation

gō'·ē (Key)


Parts of Speech
masculine noun, proper masculine noun

Root Word (Etymology)

Apparently from the same root as גֵּוָה (H1465)

TWOT Reference
326e

Outline of Biblical Usage n m
1) nation, people

a) nation, people

1) usually of non-Hebrew people

2) of descendants of Abraham

3) of Israel
b) of swarm of locusts, other animals (fig.)

n pr m
c) Goyim? = "nations"


Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 558 AV — nation 374, heathen 143, Gentiles 30, people 11




I have come to realize that the New Covenant could have never came to its' Fullness or Marriage status if it had not been for the Gentiles 'coming in' to the Covenant. The 'Jews' of Judah could not have 'brought in' the NC, by themselves, they Needed the Gentiles/Ephraim/the Nations of the Disporia...... The Jews needed the 'Whole House of David and as Ephraim had been divorced from Covenant with YHWH/Jesus, they could only regain that Covenant status by being re-born and coming to a New Covenant. With this being said...the Gentiles also needed Judah.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Romans 11:25 - For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

This verse had always given me concern as to its proper understanding. In order to understand its meaning, we must first discern what is meant by Paul's usage of the word "Gentiles."

It is commonly understood that Gentile means a non-Hebrew, non-Jewish individual. That is so untrue. Granted, there are occurrences where Gentile means just that. Paul is not referring to that kind of Gentile in Romans 11 and previous chapters.

For those with open minds and having a sincere desire to learn what was truly meant by Paul, I am attaching a Word document NOT written by me, but by another individual who once held to the same definition as I did...

The connections made in Hosea to Romans 9 in regard to the promise to the house of Israel are outstanding!

It is well worth the time and effort!

I don't have time to read it right now, but it sounds like you are suggesting that the "Gentiles" (e.g. nations) are the 'nations" of the Israelites that were driven out of the promised land. Is that correct? If so, you should let Beck know since he as promoting this idea a few months ago. I gave him a hard time. I guess I'll have to find time to read it now to find out if I was wronge ....

[mwh]

Hello TruthSeeker1959 and Brother Les,

This is a very interesting topic which I'm currently investigating, not long ago I read the thread: Gentiles, started by Beck. I have also found the book: Exclusiveness of Israel, very helpful in my research, I have read about half of it now.

I think the view of 'gentiles' generally being the other nations of Israel, very compelling. These are some of the quick notes I have made on the topic:

Hebrew words

goy (singular) and goyim (plural).

Greek counterparts are

ethnos (singular) and ethne (plural).


The promises belong to Israel
Matthew 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins

Acts 26:6-7
now for the hope of the promise made to the fathers by God, I have stood judged, to which our twelve tribes, intently night and day serving, do hope to come, concerning which hope I am accused (YLT)

Rom 4:16
to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed [Israel]; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all

Rom 9:3-5
for my brethren, my kindred, according to the flesh, who are Israelites, whose [is] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the lawgiving, and the service, and the promises, whose [are] the fathers, and of whom [is] the Christ, according to the flesh ... (YLT)

Rom 15:8
And I say Jesus Christ to have become a ministrant of circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises to the fathers (YLT)

Hebrews 2:16
… of seed of Abraham it layeth hold

James 1:1-2
James, of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ a servant, to the Twelve Tribes who are in the dispersion: Hail!All joy count [it], my brethren … (YLT)

Rev 7:4
I heard the number of those sealed, (144 thousands were sealed out of all the tribes of the sons of Israel (YLT)


Israel as Jews and ´Gentiles´
Matt 24:14
this good news of the reign shall be proclaimed in all the world [oikoumene], for a testimony to all the nations; and then shall the end arrive (YLT, notice the ´the´ in ´all the nations´, it is commonly left out, denoting particular nations, IE the 12 nations of Israel).

Matt 28:19
having gone, then, disciple all the nations … (YLT, notice the ´the´ in ´all the nations´, it is commonly left out, denoting particular nations, IE the 12 nations of Israel).

John 7:35
The Jews, therefore, said among themselves, `Whither is this one about to go that we shall not find him? -- to the dispersion of the Greeks is he about to go? and to teach the Greeks (YLT)

Acts 9:15
And the Lord said unto him, `Be going on, because a choice vessel to Me is this one, to bear My name before nations [ethnos] and kings [basileus] -- [te] the sons also of Israel; (YLT)

Acts 19:17
and this became known to all, both Jews and Greeks, who are dwelling at Ephesus, and fear fell upon them all, and the name of the Lord Jesus was being magnified (YLT)

1 Corinthians 10:1
Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea (KJV, the letter is written to Isralites, cmp 12:2).

1 Pet 1:1
Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the choice sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, (YLT)


Reunion of Israel
Isaiah 11:10-12
And there hath been, in that day, A root of Jesse that is standing for an ensign of peoples, Unto him do nations seek, And his rest hath been -- honour! And it hath come to pass, in that day, The Lord addeth a second time his power, To get the remnant of His people that is left, From Asshur, and from Egypt, And from Pathros, and from Cush, And from Elam, and from Shinar, And from Hamath, and from isles of the sea, And He hath lifted up an ensign to nations, And gathereth the driven away of Israel, And the scattered of Judah He assembleth, From the four wings of the earth.

Ezekiel 37:15-23
… I will take the children of Israel from among the heathen, whither they be gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land: And I will make them one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king to them all: and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all. … (look at complete citation).

Hosea 1:9-11
Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them, Ye are the sons of the living God. Then shall the children of Judah and the children of Israel be gathered together, and appoint themselves one head, and they shall come up out of the land: for great shall be the day of Jezreel (cpm Romans 9:24-29).

John 10:16
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
- Jesus is talking to Judah...the "other sheep" he is referring to is probably the Northern tribes of Israel.

Ephesians 2:11-22
… that ye [the nations] were at that time apart from Christ, having been alienated from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of the promise, having no hope, and without God, in the world; and now, in Christ Jesus, ye being once afar off became nigh in the blood of the Christ … (YLT, look at complete citation).


Various

[House of Judah and House of Israel]
The Lost Sheep of the House of Israel are a unique sub-set of Gentiles who are Israelites, but they are not Jews.
Viewed from a Jewish perspective, being non-Jews they are Gentiles. But viewed from an Israelite perspective, they are not Gentiles but fellow Israelites.
All Jews are Israelites, but not all Israelites are Jews.

Matthew 10:5-6 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans. But go rather to the Lost Sheep of The House of Israel."

In order to understand this verse we need to remember the title House of Israel was assigned exclusively to the Northern Kingdom when the Davidic Kingdom split. The Northern Kingdom was never Jewish, therefore Jesus command to first go to the Lost Sheep of The House of Israel was NOT a command to go first to "lost Jews".

Jesus was both an Israelite and a Jew. He said in effect "do not go to Israelite Gentiles." (That is, "do not go to non-Israelites.") A common misinterpretation has Him referring to Jewish Gentiles by saying "do not go to non-Jews". That is not what Jesus said.
(http://losttribes.net/menu/gentile.html)


the ´Gentiles´; the lost sheep of the house of Israel, who were scattered among the nations. They had become uncircumsized heathen - "not a people." Though "gentilized," the diaspora was to be once again a people Hosea 1:10, and restored with the remnant of Judah.
(http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...1&postcount=17)



Objections
There is no such thing as the "lost tribes." They have been fully absorbed into the Gentiles.

Yes they were absorbed in to the Gentile/Heathen nations, but being absorbed into a gentile race and culture would not erase those that remained as part of the remnant of Israel (Romans 11:5).
The remnant that would come back to Yahweh, through the preaching of the gospel from out of these nations.

Best regards,
Martin

[Charisma]

My one main thought on this topic is contained in

Rom 9:3-5
for my brethren, my kindred, according to the flesh, who are Israelites, whose [is] the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the lawgiving, and the service, and the promises, whose [are] the fathers, and of whom [is] the Christ, according to the flesh ... (YLT)

When you look at the non-descendants of Abraham who were absorbed into Israel by marriage, the actual racial content of a person is obviously more symbolic (as with Levi and the strict rules about who a Levite could marry) than essential to salvation.

God's main objection to 'the nations' was their idols and the territorial spirits which would overcome His people if they turned away from Him.

Through His death, Christ as the representative Man took our first nationality to the grave, whether we were of Israel or not, Jewish or not.

Hence, Paul puts 'the adoption' first, because the new birth gives us a new nationality. We are all of the same generation as Jesus Christ spiritually, with God as our real spiritual (eternal) Father.

Paul's thesis in the four chapters preceding Romans 9 totally justify his putting 'adoption' first in the list of benefits he desires for his fellow kinsmen.

Jesus was truly 'Jewish' by His first birth, but He was also truly Jewish by the definiton Paul gave in Romans 2:29 - the Jewishness to which all Christians aspire, who have believed into His death and resurrection for us.


Added later:

I should have included above where I mentioned Gentiles marrying into Israel (like Rahab and Ruth) that the other main reason for 'Gentiles' being absorbed into Israel, is by circumcision. Only the male was circumcised, but his wife and family became Jewish.

An outstanding example of a Jewish Gentile is

Matthew 10:4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Mark 3:18
And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the [son] of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite.

We know that Simon was Jewish because he would have to have been circumcised to share the Passover with the other disciples.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Objections
There is no such thing as the "lost tribes." They have been fully absorbed into the Gentiles.

Yes they were absorbed in to the Gentile/Heathen nations, but being absorbed into a gentile race and culture would not erase those that remained as part of the remnant of Israel (Romans 11:5).
The remnant that would come back to Yahweh, through the preaching of the gospel from out of these nations.

Hi Martin,

Welcome to our forum!



I would like to address one point at a time, and since the objection you answered seems to be critical to the entire theory, it seems like a good place to start.

I don't think you understand what it means to be "absorbed" into the Gentiles. It's like a drop of ink in the ocean - they have been so thoroughly mixed together that every drop of water in the ocean has a little bit of the ink. In other words, essentially every "Gentile" is now a physical descendent of Abraham!

This is simple population dynamics. If an Israelite is defined as any carnal descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, then almost everyone is an Israelite. This is because the ten northern tribes have been dispersed and interbreeding with the Gentiles for over 100 generations so we must conclude through population dynamics that most of the population of the planet can trace their ancestry to Jacob. This means almost all the Gentiles have been "converted" to Israelites through interbreeding!

Here's an article from ScienceDaily that explains how one scientist has concluded that everyone currently living - that's all of us - are descended from a relatively small set of "identical ancestors" who lived only 2000 years ago:

While we may not all be 'brothers,' the models suggest we are all hundredth cousins or so," said Joseph T. Chang, professor in the Department of Statistics at Yale University and senior author on the paper.

Chang established the basis of this research in a previous publication with an intentionally simplified model that ignored such complexities as geography and migration. Those precise mathematical results showed that in a world obeying the simplified assumptions, the most recent common ancestor would have lived less than 1,000 years ago. He also introduced the "identical ancestors point," the most recent time -- less than 2,000 years ago in the simplified model -- when each person was an ancestor to all or ancestor to none of the people alive today.

The current paper presents more realistic mathematical and computer models. It incorporates factors such as socially driven mating, physical barriers of geography and migration, and recorded historical events. Although such complexities make pure mathematical analysis difficult, it was possible to integrate them into an elaborate computer simulation model. The computer repeatedly simulated history under varying assumptions, tracking the lives, movements, and reproduction of all people who lived within the last 20,000 years.

These more realistic models estimate that the most recent common ancestor of mankind lived as recently as about 3,000 years ago, and the identical ancestors point was as recent as several thousand years ago. The paper suggests, "No matter the languages we speak or the color of our skin, we share ancestors who planted rice on the banks of the Yangtze, who first domesticated horses on the steppes of the Ukraine, who hunted giant sloths in the forests of North and South America, and who labored to build the Great Pyramid of Khufu."

This means that nearly every person living is a physical descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob!

If your theory of an "Israel according to the flesh" is going to stand, I do beleive you will have to overcome this objectiion.

All the best,

Richard

[Edward Goodie]

Hi Martin,

Welcome to our forum!



I would like to address one point at a time, and since the objection you answered seems to be critical to the entire theory, it seems like a good place to start.

I don't think you understand what it means to be "absorbed" into the Gentiles. It's like a drop of ink in the ocean - they have been so thoroughly mixed together that every drop of water in the ocean has a little bit of the ink. In other words, essentially every "Gentile" is now a physical descendent of Abraham!

This is simple population dynamics. If an Israelite is defined as any carnal descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, then almost everyone is an Israelite. This is because the ten northern tribes have been dispersed and interbreeding with the Gentiles for over 100 generations so we must conclude through population dynamics that most of the population of the planet can trace their ancestry to Jacob. This means almost all the Gentiles have been "converted" to Israelites through interbreeding!

Here's an article from ScienceDaily that explains how one scientist has concluded that everyone currently living - that's all of us - are descended from a relatively small set of "identical ancestors" who lived only 2000 years ago:

While we may not all be 'brothers,' the models suggest we are all hundredth cousins or so," said Joseph T. Chang, professor in the Department of Statistics at Yale University and senior author on the paper.

Chang established the basis of this research in a previous publication with an intentionally simplified model that ignored such complexities as geography and migration. Those precise mathematical results showed that in a world obeying the simplified assumptions, the most recent common ancestor would have lived less than 1,000 years ago. He also introduced the "identical ancestors point," the most recent time -- less than 2,000 years ago in the simplified model -- when each person was an ancestor to all or ancestor to none of the people alive today.

The current paper presents more realistic mathematical and computer models. It incorporates factors such as socially driven mating, physical barriers of geography and migration, and recorded historical events. Although such complexities make pure mathematical analysis difficult, it was possible to integrate them into an elaborate computer simulation model. The computer repeatedly simulated history under varying assumptions, tracking the lives, movements, and reproduction of all people who lived within the last 20,000 years.

These more realistic models estimate that the most recent common ancestor of mankind lived as recently as about 3,000 years ago, and the identical ancestors point was as recent as several thousand years ago. The paper suggests, "No matter the languages we speak or the color of our skin, we share ancestors who planted rice on the banks of the Yangtze, who first domesticated horses on the steppes of the Ukraine, who hunted giant sloths in the forests of North and South America, and who labored to build the Great Pyramid of Khufu."

This means that nearly every person living is a physical descendant of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob!

If your theory of an "Israel according to the flesh" is going to stand, I do beleive you will have to overcome this objectiion.

All the best,

Richard

RAM, I do not see the point of your argument. The time periods differ vastly.
Besides, what does descending from a people group have to do with anything? John 8 pretty much clears that up for me.

And, what is your understanding of the phrase "Israel according to the flesh." Surely, you are not thinking "Israel according to human tissue."

[Richard Amiel McGough]

RAM, I do not see the point of your argument. The time periods differ vastly.
Besides, what does descending from a people group have to do with anything? John 8 pretty much clears that up for me.

And, what is your understanding of the phrase "Israel according to the flesh." Surely, you are not thinking "Israel according to human tissue."

I think you missed the point that I was refuting.

Futurists have a doctrine that the "ten tribes" (composed of physical descendants of Jacob) still exist, scattered out amongst the "Gentiles," and that God will "gather" them back to the land of Israel in the future. My argument refutes that idea.

[Charisma]

I added something to my post above.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Added later:

I should have included above where I mentioned Gentiles marrying into Israel (like Rahab and Ruth) that the other main reason for 'Gentiles' being absorbed into Israel, is by circumcision. Only the male was circumcised, but his wife and family became Jewish.

An outstanding example of a Jewish Gentile is

Matthew 10:4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him.

Mark 3:18
And Andrew, and Philip, and Bartholomew, and Matthew, and Thomas, and James the [son] of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus, and Simon the Canaanite.

We know that Simon was Jewish because he would have to have been circumcised to share the Passover with the other disciples.

Did you mean to say that we know he converted to Judaism by becoming circumcised, or that he was a Canaanite Jew from birth?