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  1. #101
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Mind you, Jesus, the apostles and all prophets were Futurists.
    That's cute, but it's not exactly true.
    Luke 4:17 And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written: 18 "The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed; 19 To proclaim the acceptable year of the LORD." 20 Then He closed the book, and gave it back to the attendant and sat down. And the eyes of all who were in the synagogue were fixed on Him. 21 And He began to say to them, "Today this Scripture is fulfilled in your hearing."
    And the Apostles frequently said that the prophecies had been fulfilled back then in the first century, just like all good Preterists:
    • Matthew 1:22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: 23 "Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel," which is translated, "God with us."
    • Matthew 2:14 When he arose, he took the young Child and His mother by night and departed for Egypt, 15 and was there until the death of Herod, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying, "Out of Egypt I called My Son."
    • Matthew 2:16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was deceived by the wise men, was exceedingly angry; and he sent forth and put to death all the male children who were in Bethlehem and in all its districts, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had determined from the wise men. 17 Then was fulfilled what was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying: 18 "A voice was heard in Ramah, Lamentation, weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, Refusing to be comforted, Because they are no more."
    • Matthew 4:13 And leaving Nazareth, He came and dwelt in Capernaum, which is by the sea, in the regions of Zebulun and Naphtali, 14 that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Isaiah the prophet, saying: 15 "The land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali, By the way of the sea, beyond the Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles: 16 The people who sat in darkness have seen a great light, And upon those who sat in the region and shadow of death Light has dawned."
    • Acts 1:15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples (altogether the number of names was about a hundred and twenty), and said, 16 "Men and brethren, this Scripture had to be fulfilled, which the Holy Spirit spoke before by the mouth of David concerning Judas, who became a guide to those who arrested Jesus; 17 "for he was numbered with us and obtained a part in this ministry."
    • Acts 3:14-18 14 "But you denied the Holy One and the Just, and asked for a murderer to be granted to you, 15 "and killed the Prince of life, whom God raised from the dead, of which we are witnesses. 16 "And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all. 17 "Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18 "But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled.
    • Acts 13:26 "Men and brethren, sons of the family of Abraham, and those among you who fear God, to you the word of this salvation has been sent. 27 "For those who dwell in Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they did not know Him, nor even the voices of the Prophets which are read every Sabbath, have fulfilled them in condemning Him. 28 "And though they found no cause for death in Him, they asked Pilate that He should be put to death. 29 "Now when they had fulfilled all that was written concerning Him, they took Him down from the tree and laid Him in a tomb. 30 "But God raised Him from the dead. 31 "He was seen for many days by those who came up with Him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are His witnesses to the people. 32 "And we declare to you glad tidings -- that promise which was made to the fathers. 33 "God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm: 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.' 34 "And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus: 'I will give you the sure mercies of David.'

    Jesus, the Apostles, and the Bible are all "Preterists" with respect to the coming of Messiah. The only "Futurist" part left has to do with highly speculative and disputable things about the meaning of a supposed "Second Coming" which is not even mentioned in Scripture. The main and the plain things have obviously been fulfilled. So there is no place to insert a "Futurism" into the Bible. John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecies of the Elijah who was to come, so Futurists deny the Bible and say that John didn't "really" fulfill that prophecy not realizing that they are denying the primary fact that proved Christ was Messiah. This is just one example of how Futurism destroys the testimony of Scripture.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
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  2. #102
    Quote Originally Posted by EndtimesDeut32/70AD View Post
    ----------------------------------------------------------------

    As a side note; In the reading of these articles an answer to another personal question that I was having may have surfaced.

    It had wondered me where the apostles got their source of authority for the prophecies of a 'falling away' and apostacy before the 'end'. Many of us here believe 'the end' to be referring to the end of the mosaic covenant and the end of every rule and dominion including that of the Roman empire and other systems of unbelieving Govts.

    It is my belief that the apostles letters were written to the original 30-70 AD audience and did not forecast and prophecy events beyond the end of the first century; even really beyond 70AD.

    In at least 2 of the articles, this event with the Midianites is likened to the event of fabricating the golden calf and worshiping the idols of Egypt. The Midianite occurrence is at the latter end of the 40 yrs while the Golden Calf of the Egyptians is at the beginning. There doesn't seem to be much 'idolatry' in between, which the two articles also mention.

    I'm introduced to the thought that this account of the Midianites; Balak and Balaam at the latter end of the 40 yrs of wandering in the wilderness and just before crossing Jordan, is the source for the apostles authority and foreknowledge that before the end there would come a latter day [65-70AD] falling away and apostacy to the roman/judean co-operative and political belief systems. The apostles had earlier separated from the idols of the mosaic covenant and the instructions of Moses which could be paralleled to the early idolotry after leaving egypt. The second apostacy would be the giving of alliance and allegience to the religious/political system of Rome which would be the latter apostacy and falling away of the gentile christians.


    Thanks for this topic if only for this reason and answer.
    For a further note of confirmation; I've come to the observation that in 2 Peter 2; the chapter just before 2 Peter 3; Peter talks about this same Balaam in the context of the falling away before the judgment.

    Bingo.......
    Last edited by EndtimesDeut32/70AD; 01-03-2012 at 04:18 PM.
    1Thess 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    If you are oppressed and enslaved by religious law, you may have a tendency to oppress, enslave and attempt to lord over others who are free.

  3. #103
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    Hi Rick,

    In the other thread you mentioned that you thought that you had given a "good explanation" of the 32,000 virgins in the post quoted below and when I checked, I found that I did not answer it. So now I am rectifying that situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by heb13-13 View Post
    Hi Richard,

    It looks to me like those that had 'known men' were those that played the whore with Israel. (Numbers 25:1-5)

    The Sin of Peor
    1 While Israel remained at Shittim,
    the people [ISRAELITES] began to play the harlot with the daughters of Moab.
    2 For they invited the people to the sacrifices of their gods, and the people ate and bowed down to their gods.
    3 So Israel joined themselves to Baal of Peor, and the Lord was angry against Israel.


    The virgins had not played the whore. It was the mercy of God to spare their life and take care of them. They were innocent. They would not bring any plague on Israel. The male babies were probably killed because of potential generational retribution and because the babies were of Midianite seed. They would end up being outcasts when they grew up and would vex Israel.

    You are majoring on the fact that they were virgins and are assuming they were kept as sex slaves. The fact is they were saved because they had not played the whore. They were probably either married or used as servants.
    I see nothing that suggests the virgins were any different from the other Midianites except in the one fact that they had not had sex. And if they were "innocent" then so were the little boys that were killed. And what about the murder of all the Canaanite children? Weren't they as "innocent" as the virgins in Numbers 31? You argument does not seem to be consistent. It seems like ad hoc special pleading.

    The phrase "playing the whore" was descriptive of the ISRAELITES, not the Midianites. And its primary reference is not to sexual intercourse but rather idolatry (bowing down to other gods).

    I call the captive virgins "sex slaves" because they had no choice in the matter. They were kidnapped and given to the soldiers just like the virgins of Jabesh-Gilead were kidnapped and given to the 600 surviving soldiers of Benjamin after God participated in the murder of every other man, woman, and child of that tribe.

    It makes no sense to argue that the female Midianites could be successfully integrated into Israeli life but not the boys.

    And what about the fact that God expressly forbade marriage with the people of the land (which includes Midianites)?

    Quote Originally Posted by heb13-13 View Post
    18 But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

    Some interpret this verse as giving these women as sex slaves. However, we can interpret this verse that they could marry these "women children", no doubt after they had come to a marriageable age. Or we can simply read it that these children could be used as servants.
    It's not so easy to avoid the implication that they were taken to be wives. When Israel killed all the men, women, and children of Jabesh-Gilead, they did it for the express purpose of acquiring wives.

    Numbers 31:17 Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

    Judges 21:12 And they found among the inhabitants of Jabeshgilead four hundred young virgins, that had known no man by lying with any male: and they brought them unto the camp to Shiloh, which is in the land of Canaan.

    Almost exactly the same Hebrew phrase is used in both cases, and it does not appear anywhere else in Scripture. It seems pretty clear that the motivations were the same in both cases. The scenes were very similar - KILL EVERYONE EXCEPT THE VIRGINS. Indeed, some scholars think that the episode in Numbers 31 may have been the precedent for Judges 21.

    Quote Originally Posted by heb13-13 View Post
    29 Take it of their half, and give it unto Eleazar the priest, for an heave offering of the LORD.

    Regarding verse 29, the women that had not known men were not guilty of the crime of the other Midianites so they were not punished.

    The heave offering of 1 in 500 was not human sacrifice. That is not what a heave offering is. They were given to the priests as servants not sacrifices.
    I never said it was human sacrifice.

    You insistence that the virgins were "innocent" relative to everyone else that was murdered has no foundation in the text, or in logic by my estimation.

    Quote Originally Posted by heb13-13 View Post
    Read about Moab and his desire to curse and destroy Israel, God's chosen people through which He would bring His testimony to men (Jesus).

    Numbers 22:
    3 And Moab was sore afraid of the people, because they were many: and Moab was distressed because of the children of Israel.

    4 And Moab said unto the elders of Midian, Now shall this company lick up all that are round about us, as the ox licketh up the grass of the field. And Balak the son of Zippor was king of the Moabites at that time.

    5 He sent messengers therefore unto Balaam the son of Beor to Pethor, which is by the river of the land of the children of his people, to call him, saying, Behold, there is a people come out from Egypt: behold, they cover the face of the earth, and they abide over against me:
    I don't see how that would justify genocide and the taking of the virgins. Just think about this for a minute. Every moral fiber in your soul screams that those actions are morally abominable. The only reason you are trying to justify them is to rescue your dogma about God and the Bible. This is why the Bible is not a moral guide. It actually encourages moral corruption by forcing people to justify the unjustifiable. It destroys any hope for the "moral highground" so coveted by Christians. It's like when William Lane Craig said that God had done no wrong when he killed the Canaanite children because "they all go to heaven." That logic also justifies abortion, one of the favorite moral points Christians like to focus upon.

    And this demonstrates another problem with your thesis - why didn't God save the "innocent children" of the Canaanites and all the other communities he ordered destroyed? Your argument appears to be ad hoc - just made up for the "special case" of Numbers 31. But it's not consistent with the rest of God's actions in the OT.

    Quote Originally Posted by heb13-13 View Post
    Why Was God So Harsh on Israel and the Midianites?
    God dealt very harshly because it was through the people of Israel that the Messiah would later come. Ever since Cain, Satan continually tried to thwart God in his opposition to Him and His people. He tried to make the people of God fall into false worship and through intermarriage with other people who worshipped demons (idols) tried to destroy the messianic line thereby making the promises of God of no effect and destroying the lineage by which the Messiah would come. If Satan could accomplish this, man could not be delivered from him. That is why God was very harsh regarding idolatry and the combination of sexual sin and idolatry were an even stronger bondage and entanglement to the men of Israel.
    You present Satan as if he were an equal match to God who could force God to command genocide as the only solution. If that's the case, then Satan won by making God look worse than him! The Bible doesn't attribute any genocide to Satan - now that's a disturbing thought. A lot of bad things are said about Satan, like he was a "murderer from the beginning" but when we read the Bible, it turns out that God is the great killer of humans! He flooded the whole planet. He participated in the murder of the entire tribe of Benjamin. He killed 70,000 Israelites because David took a census. It's ironic, but I must say that God makes Satan look pretty good!

    I tell you the truth when I say that I cannot imaging a greater damage to the Christian message than the attempt to justify the actions of God in the OT.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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