Is life meaningless without God?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard, Rick and anyone else who comes,
I know you want to move on but I couldn't post yesterday to answer some of your questions.

That's great. I'll separate out the digressions into separate threads if the need becomes obvious.

Yes, I know that you don't agree with Christianity about many things. But I forget your position on hell and the need for "salvation." Are you saying that there is no hell and no need for salvation?

I believe there are levels of hell. I've visited at least one. I didn't like it.
I believe that without salvation we are lost. Salvation is through Jesus Christ. But I do not write off people of other faiths. Those who come to a realization of Grace and truth do so outside and beyond their religious dogmas, whatever those might be. That is why I said they might meet Jesus along the way. If he brought Grace and Truth where would they have gotten it from otherwise.

But what do you mean by "hell." I was talking about the word as used by most Christians to refer to a place in the afterlife of eternal conscious torment. You say that you've visited hell so I'm guessing we are still confused over definitions. Let's see if we can clear that up with a little plain talk, eh?

And what do you mean by "salvation?" Are you a Universalist? Or do some go to hell forever? If so, why? What good does God accomplish by tormenting the creatures he created that way?

I get the impression you see Christianity as a revelation of a path for mystics to commune with God and grow spiritually. But then again, you say other things that make me think you are a regular Christian who believes that the death and resurrection of Christ were really important for everybody. So I must admit that I don't really know where you are coming from.

I believe both. Jesus said, "I am the way." That is the entire way. He brought the highest form of Mysticism to mankind.
Not just through the physical, formative, astral, spiritual realms but all the way to the divine. He sits on the right hand of the Father and waits for the consumation of all things. And yet he lives inside of us.
He said follow me.
He runs the greatest "Mystery School" there ever was. It encompasses the entire universe and yet we do not even have to leave the house to enroll.

That makes perfect sense. Of course you can believe in both the traditional meaning of Christianity as well as mystical. But you could also reject the traditional forms and accept only your own personal mystical interpretation. It was my impression that you inclined towards the latter given how many times you rejected what I thought were traditional Christian teachings.

How does God feeding the wild birds indicate Universalism? Is that what you meant to imply? Everyone gets "saved" without having to "do" anything just like ravens all get fed by God without sowing and reaping?

Animals don't have the ability to "doubt" because they don't have language.

"Considering the ravens" teaches us to have "faith like a child" - to abandon the civilized way of living an return to nature, trusting God to supply all our needs. It's a great way to live, but if everyone did it we'd all be back in the stone age. It makes me think of the kind of idealism common amongst the Rainbow Family. Babylon must burn! We must all return to Mother Nature. We gotta get back to the Garden.

He didn't say become a raven, he said to consider them.
The main thing he was pointing out is that if we keep our minds on spiritual things our physical needs will be provided. That may mean we will get a job when we need it or the neighbor may ask us for dinner when we just ran out of money two days before payday or whatever.

But you, by considering them, pointed out two more important aspects.
Faith like a child is a good one.
The other, that they do not doubt because they don't have language.
As I mentioned before, I began my spiritual journey reading and practicing the teachings of Don Juan, written by Carlos Castaneda.
In his system of knowledge, don Juan points out that the single most important element of his teachings concerning the opening of spiritual perception was the practice of "stopping the internal dialog."It is the incessant speaking in our heads that we do out of habit that keeps us where we are. Tied to the physical realm.
This agrees with the bible.

Ps 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
Ec 3:7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

Now that's profound. I had forgotten about your interest in Don Juan's teachings. I am currently reading books about the right/left brain hemispheres. The "internal dialogue" is usually the process of the left hemisphere. Jill Taylor is a brain scientist who experienced a huge stroke that shut down her left brain and she experienced Nirvana. She described by saying that the "internal dialogue stopped." It took her years to recover, but recover she did and she wrote an excellent little book called "My Stroke of Insight." It's an excellent read. And her first hand experiences have been confirmed in a 600 page fine print synthesis of hundreds of studies on the hemispheres called The Master and His Emissary by Iain McGilchrist. I highly recommend both if you are interested in brain physiology and how it relates to states of consciousness (including the mystical).

Oh, and the verse "Be still and know I am God" was a major meditation point for Rose and myself back in the winter of 2009-10 when we began this journey of discovery. The other key meditation was "Why should we care what others think?"

My "doubt" about the "Law" has nothing to do with my lack of ability to fulfill it. It comes from all sorts of things, like "What is the law anyway?" It's used in various senses in the Bible, and many of them make no sense to me. For example, the Law in the sense of the five books of the Torah is not even a "Law" but rather a mixture of rules (ranging from profound to absurd) and history (ranging from factual to weird unbelievable mythology). Am I really supposed to believe that Jacob caused sheep to produce mottled offspring by putting striped sticks in front of them when they mated (Gen 30:37)? So what is the "Law" of which Paul spoke? Sometimes it was just the rules in the Torah, sometimes the whole Torah as a book, sometimes it included the Prophets, and so on. I couldn't tell you what "Law" I am supposed to "obey" if you asked me. There is much confusion on the meaning of that word.

The law is a puzzle with no answer. It is painting ourselves into a corner so that the only way out is to cut a hole in the wall behind us. It is a test that in order to pass it we have to cheat.
That is if we look at the letter of the law as natural men.
But the law because it is unable to be kept without breaking it and unable to be understood leads us to Christ.
Then because of the blood he spilled on the cross life has been added to the entire world and every element within it. Including the Scriptures.

Ex 15:26 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee.

It is the voice that we are to listen to. That implies a living being, not dead words.

"It is a test that in order to pass it we have to cheat." - I love that! I long ago concluded that if the Bible is from God, it must be a test to see if we love truth more than the crazy dogmas other people teach us.

The problem with the "Voice" is that folks confuse the "voice" of their own minds with the "voice" of God. There's no fix for that as far as I can tell.

It seems your approach is entirely private and personal and I don't see how it differs from any other mystical religion. Do you know anything about Sufism? The Perennial Philosophy?

No, you wouldn't. You would do what you do. Store it away in the back of your mind and it would bother you like a pebble in your shoe until you had the answer.

Are you saying my mind is like an old shoe?

Yeah but if everyone did it we'd all starve to death. Someone's gotta grow the food for seven billion humans. And who's gonna put in the plumbing and the sewage treatment plant? Etc.

I was joking when I said "Me too."

Dang! I missed that one.

Well, everyone is free to make up their own definitions I guess. But that destroys the meaning of language. I don't understand why you want to invent a new religion and call it by the name of the already existing religion of Christianity which by its very definition is "dogmatic." Historically, the religion has been defined by creeds like the Nicene Creed, etc..

My teacher used to say, "If someone asks you what religion you are tell them Christian. If they ask you if you are a Christian, say no."
I guess it bugs me a little that, in my opinion, the term has been usurped.
If someone is a follower of Luther they are called Lutheran.
Maybe I need to coin a new term, but all the good ones have been taken, Disciples of Christ, Church if Jesus Christ, Christian fellowship.
How about Jesites. No, that sounds too much like Jesuits.

I appreciate your point, but I think we are well beyond labels in this conversation. I'm trying to determine what you actually believe - not so I can label you, but so I can understand you.

Well ... I agree that we are all on our own. But if I have to "deconstruct Christianity" in order to be a Christian, why bother? Why not just open my mind to accept all truth and reject all dogmatic sectarian religions?

Yes. Separate what Jesus taught from what men taught. They are not the way, Jesus is. Yes accept all Truth. Don't reject all religions. See if the elements of their teachings match up with the elements of his teachings. Accept the ones that do and reject the ones that don't.

What does it even mean to say that Jesus is the Way? Is this an anthropomorphic form of Taoism?

Why do you believe that "Jesus is the way?" What does that mean to you? What does it mean in practice?

And how can we separate what "Jesus" said from what "men" say given that the only things we know about Jesus are transmitted by men in the book?

Great chatting!

Richard

[Bob May]

That's great. I'll separate out the digressions into separate threads if the need becomes obvious.

Sounds good. Just leave a note

But what do you mean by "hell." I was talking about the word as used by most Christians to refer to a place in the afterlife of eternal conscious torment. You say that you've visited hell so I'm guessing we are still confused over definitions. Let's see if we can clear that up with a little plain talk, eh?

Ok. I found myself in a place of utter darkness during a meditation. No hope, no connection with God. I thought that if I was not able to get out of it during that meditation, that whetheror not I died right there and then physically, made little difference. I would experience the second death or death of the soul.
That is the fear that holds everyone in bondage as far as I can tell.
The fear of death of the soul, not the body.
That darkness would be hell for anyone.
I have found that that experience is in the bible and heard one gentleman describe it on a History channel show. Her had had a near death experience and was burned over 90% of his body and to this day (of his interviewing), he is afraid that at death he will go there again.
There is also the idea that there are two more planes of hell. The first I described above. Complete separation from God, the second I don't remember offhand and the third the plane of decaying souls.

Then there is the popular idea of burning in eternal torment. AQ lot is mixing up the ideas about the cleansing aspect of fire.
Many descriptions in Scripture have to do with the baptism of fire and this cleansing process. Kundalini in the Eastern Schools of thought. You have to be burned to experience some of the higher things.
The removal of the dross etc.

And what do you mean by "salvation?" Are you a Universalist? Or do some go to hell forever? If so, why? What good does God accomplish by tormenting the creatures he created that way?

Salvation from death is salvation from what we are in as natural mankind.
We are separate from God. Jesus shows us the way to connect and even become one with God.
If you go through this life and die and see that you could have become closer to God yet refused the invitation wouldn't that be hell enough?

That makes perfect sense. Of course you can believe in both the traditional meaning of Christianity as well as mystical. But you could also reject the traditional forms and accept only your own personal mystical interpretation. It was my impression that you inclined towards the latter given how many times you rejected what I thought were traditional Christian teachings.

I reject the "traditional Christian" teachings that put me back under the law.
If you add one law to grace it is no more grace. If you are circumcised you are a debtor to do the whole law. If you break one law you are guilty of all.
The law acts like leaven.
And to quote the God Father, "They keep pulling me back in."
Few churches because of their being organizations, by their very nature come up with rules. People take the rules as laws relating to our relationship with God and we get pulled back in.
I see no problem with some of the Creeds of some protestant churches as a statement of belief. But do they add to those and if you try to believe those statements beyond what the leaders of those churches themselves believe them you are banned or shunned or something.
There is a church in the next town over from mine. One of those franchises that have a lot of churches, but I don't recall the denomination. They did a
Promotional event a while back and had big banner in front of the churches that read. "God is still Speaking"
I stopped in on a Sunday morning and attended a service. I saw no evidence or sermon or discussion of what the banner stated. I was disappointed, but not suprised.

Now that's profound. I had forgotten about your interest in Don Juan's teachings. I am currently reading books about the right/left brain hemispheres. The "internal dialogue" is usually the process of the left hemisphere. Jill Taylor is a brain scientist who experienced a huge stroke that shut down her left brain and she experienced Nirvana. She described by saying that the "internal dialogue stopped." It took her years to recover, but recover she did and she wrote an excellent little book called "My Stroke of Insight." It's an excellent read. And her first hand experiences have been confirmed in a 600 page fine print synthesis of hundreds of studies on the hemispheres called The Master and His Emissary by Iain McGilchrist. I highly recommend both if you are interested in brain physiology and how it relates to states of consciousness (including the mystical).

I did post a comment on Rose's thread of left and right brain and something I have always felt related to that in Genesis. Jubal and Tubalcain.

Oh, and the verse "Be still and know I am God" was a major meditation point for Rose and myself back in the winter of 2009-10 when we began this journey of discovery. The other key meditation was "Why should we care what others think?"

It is not just a verse to be meditated upon. It is silent meditation. Not Speaking. (Which, by the way, is the definition of Infant which is what Jesus said the kingdom of heaven was made up of)

Lu 18:15 And they brought unto him also infants, that he would touch them: but when his disciples saw it, they rebuked them.
Lu 18:16 But Jesus called them unto him, and said, Suffer little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.
Lu 18:17 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child shall in no wise enter therein. Lu 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Lu 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Lu 18:23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
Lu 18:24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
Lu 18:25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. Lu 18:26 And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved?
Lu 18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
Lu 18:28 Then Peter said, Lo, we have left all, and followed thee.
Lu 18:29 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake,
Lu 18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.

It is interesting that he goes from the idea of not speaking (infant to giving up all we have, and to nothing is impossible with God even if it is with us as men.)
The giving up all we have is part of the process of silence. Giving up all of our ideas and thoughts and influences of family and doctines etc.
It leaves us open for the Truth to slip through the crack we have made.
Not speaking. Be still and know.
It is a practice that yeilds much fruit.
But then the fruit is tested. Does it fit with the New Covenant and the teachings of Jesus? If so keep it. It is good fruit fromthe tree of life. If not reject it.

"It is a test that in order to pass it we have to cheat." - I love that! I long ago concluded that if the Bible is from God, it must be a test to see if we love truth more than the crazy dogmas other people teach us.

Yes but God provided this cheat for us. We are supposed to come to this realization.
Weren't the tables of stone graven on the front and back side?
And wasn't the lambs book of life written also on the front and on the back side?
Dogma is law and the New Covenant promises are the litmus test.
Does our philosophy/doctrine lead to life or death?
Our doctrine should match Jesus' doctrine and will if we keep following what he was saying.

The problem with the "Voice" is that folks confuse the "voice" of their own minds with the "voice" of God. There's no fix for that as far as I can tell.

The test that I just mentioned is a good one. That is the fix.
And I am much more sceptical than you know when it comes to people hearing voices. But it is not just audible voices I am speaking of. It is what are we getting from Scripture. That is the main way God speaks to us.
We may have visions and dreams etc. But the New Covenant as given in Scripture is the test. Not the laws given by some church.

It seems your approach is entirely private and personal and I don't see how it differs from any other mystical religion. Do you know anything about Sufism? The Perennial Philosophy?

Scripture is of no private interpretation.

2pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
2pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

When something comes from God it comes with a certainty. Many times it is a very literal aspect of the words of Scripture.
"He was the light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world."
If that is literal it is of no private interpretation. It is just not understood by someone who has not experienced this light.
It is not private because everyone who experiences this light will agree that it exists.
The proof of the pudding is in the eating.



I have to get ready for work, Talk later.
Bob

[Bob May]

Hi Richard,
I missed some points yesterday.

That's great. I'll separate out the digressions into separate threads if the need becomes obvious.

But what do you mean by "hell." I was talking about the word as used by most Christians to refer to a place in the afterlife of eternal conscious torment. You say that you've visited hell so I'm guessing we are still confused over definitions. Let's see if we can clear that up with a little plain talk, eh?

Some thing I missed. I have spoken about finding ourselves in Scripture.
The bible is full of prophecies, some of which apply to Jesus coming in the first century. Some of which apply to us. Some of which it becomes difficult to determine which is which.
Recently while reading Isaiah I saw that it was difficult to tell whether it was speaking about us as heirs of the promises or about Jesus. I was speaking to a friend about it and he said maybe it's both.
The eunuch thast Philip met on the road seemed to have the same problem.

Ac 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
Ac 8:34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

Now take this same state of mind that the eunuch had and apply it to reading this psalm.

Ps 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
Ps 16:11 Thou wilt show me the path of life: in thy presence is fulness of joy; at thy right hand there are pleasures for evermore.

Does it apply to Jesus or to David or to us as well?
Or all three?

When Jesus said "Follow me," I believe it was more of a command similar to "Let there be light." It was not a request, it was a command and a prophecy of what is to come.

Jesus went to hell and came out. He also said that he would teach us all things. If we stay on the Path or Way that Jesus claimed to be we will go through some things we could not have imagined existed before we experience them.
You asked the question a while ago about the Spirit teaching us "all things."
If hell is one of those things we may have to pass through it on the way to Christ Consciousness or Cosmic Consciousness.

And what do you mean by "salvation?" Are you a Universalist? Or do some go to hell forever? If so, why? What good does God accomplish by tormenting the creatures he created that way?

The moment we believe we are saved. I cannot tell you when I fist believed but I can tell you when I first began hearing.
Do we believe to the saving of the soul though? That is, I think up to us. It is a process.
I said we may have to pass through hell and gave evidence above.
Do some go to hell forever? Maybe.
I think if they do it would be by rejecting Grace rather than by breaking the Law though.

I appreciate your point, but I think we are well beyond labels in this conversation. I'm trying to determine what you actually believe - not so I can label you, but so I can understand you.

I understand and that is why I told you my thoughts on the matter.

What does it even mean to say that Jesus is the Way? Is this an anthropomorphic form of Taoism?

I gave examples above. We are to follow him and in the process we will experience the things he experienced. Not everyone will experience all of the same things though. There are different gifts and there are twelve gates in the New Jerusalem from which to enter.

Why do you believe that "Jesus is the way?" What does that mean to you? What does it mean in practice?

And how can we separate what "Jesus" said from what "men" say given that the only things we know about Jesus are transmitted by men in the book?

I believe he is the way because I have found myself in scripture and it has confirmed that when certain things have happened to me it was already written there before I experienced it.
The men in the book are not the only way this information is transmitted.
If it were I would probably have my doubts.
As it is the personal experiences that I have had and the confirmation afterwards that what I had experienced was true came from the book.

I once had a vision. I had previously found (several months earlier)that a certain scripture spoke directly to me and I went directly to that place in the
bible and began reading. The very next chapter told me exactly what I had just experienced in detail ten minutes before I read it.
In other words the bible told me what had just happened to me in detail.

This has happened many times to a lesser extent but always speaks of Grace and Truth.
It is 20/20 spiritual hindsight. I experience something and then I find it in scripture. Kind of like an inside out map.
It has happened too many times to doubt now.
Paul called Scripture the "oracles of God," and for good reason.

Great chatting!

Richard

With you too'
Bob