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  1. #1
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    Why do you believe the Bible?

    Most conversations on this forum are based on the assumption that the Bible is the Word of God and fully trustworthy. I don't recall many, if any, that question that assumption. I would like to know why people do or do not believe the Bible.

    Personally, I first believed in the Bible as God's Word when I was 19 years old and had a dramatic "born again" conversion at a "Praise the Lord" festival in Vancouver Washington. My new faith lasted for a few months. I was constantly reading the Bible and feeling amazed all the time. Then one day I was sitting at the "Cottage Inn" restaurant in Kenmore, Washington, reading Matthew and encountered this verse:
    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
    I remember it as if it were yesterday. I felt the "bubble" of my faith simply "pop" as I read that passage and realized that it was not true. Jesus did not come back "with the glory of his father" during the lifetime of those standing there hearing him make this prediction. I was totally confused and profoundly disturbed. I went to talk to the folks who had prayed with me when I converted and they had no answer, but rather tried to cast out the "demon of doubt." It was not long before I forgot all about my new religion.

    Then a few years later I went to Washington State University to study Mathematics and Physics. I would see street preachers and confront them saying that if God wrote a book, I would expect it to be at least as precise and accurate as my Quantum Physics textbook. Then I met fellow student Robin Collins, who became my best friend. He is one of the smartest people I ever met (he got three degrees, Mathematics, Physics, and Philosophy) and was also a very sincere tongue-speaking born-again Christian. After lots of interaction with him, I "returned" to the faith for a while, but it ultimately faded again.

    Then I quit college after getting hung up on my PhD project and rode my bike from Seattle to Los Angeles and back, and then went to my first Rainbow Gathering in Texas (1988) after which I hitch-hiked all around the country. I became very interested in all forms of spirituality, and began searching all the worlds religions for the "ultimate unity" of them all. It was then that I encountered the I Ching, Astrology, Tarot, Kabbalah and the symbolic meaning of the Hebrew alphabet and gematria and a thousand other things. And during all my readings, I kept encountering references to the Bible. I was particularly intrigued by the Hebrew gematria of verses in the OT, and soon became convinced that it's alphanumeric design proved it was of God. I had forgotten all about Christ and thought I might convert to be a Jew. But then I met Mike Gridley who was a firm Christian. He pointed me back towards the NT and I began to search out Greek gematria of the NT and compare it to Hebrew gematria of the OT. It was at this time (1992) that I discovered my first "Holographs" and soon became convinced that the whole Bible was of God. And then I began to "realize" that I was a Christian - I felt like I was simply discovering faith in Christ "growing" in me of it's own accord. I used to liken myself to a pot of dirt in which the Word of God had been planted. I felt like I was discovering that I was a Christian rather than "choosing" it.

    It was around this time (1993) that I discovered the Isaiah-Bible Correlation which seemed to be a very strong confirmation that the Bible was designed by God. And then in 1995 I discovered the Bible Wheel and this completed the "threefold thread" that I felt was strong evidence of the divine origin of the Bible: 1) Biblical Holographs (Gematria), 2) Isaiah-Bible Correlation, 3) The Bible Wheel.

    As far as I know, the evidence presented in those three studies remains valid. And it is augmented by the "Big Picture" of fulfilled prophecy relating to the coming of Christ in the first century. These were the reasons that supported my belief that the Bible was the Word of God. Of course, it would have been pretty much meaningless if it had not been vivified by my personal experiences which I interpreted as "from God."

    So why am I no longer a Christian if the evidence for it still stands? Well, it's because "evidence" means nothing until it is interpreted. And I believe my interpretation of the evidence was wrong. Yes, there is evidence that there is something "supernatural" going on in the Bible, but no, it does not prove any particular version of the many "Christianities" that are derived from the many contradictory interpretations of the Bible.

    So those were my reasons. I would like to know your reasons. Why do you believe the Bible?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  2. #2
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    Hi Richard,

    I believe the bible because it has and continues to prove itself to me over and over again.

    All the best,
    Bob

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob May View Post
    Hi Richard,

    I believe the bible because it has and continues to prove itself to me over and over again.

    All the best,
    Bob
    Thanks Bob.

    But how has it proved itself? I mean, how is it different than any other book in that regards?

    And what does "prove itself" mean to you? I mean, you obviously don't believe there is a solid dome "firmament" holding up the waters that are "above," right?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Thanks Bob.

    But how has it proved itself? I mean, how is it different than any other book in that regards?
    I've mentioned before that the bible is written on four different levels. That is according to the Hebrew Scolars.


    ""From Wikipedia,
    Pardes refers to (types of) approaches to biblical exegesis in rabbinic Judaism (or - simpler - interpretation of text in Torah study). The term, sometimes also spelled PaRDeS, is an acronym formed from the name initials of the following four approaches:

    Peshat (פְּשָׁט) — "plain" ("simple") or the direct meaning[1].
    Remez (רֶמֶז) — "hints" or the deep (allegoric: hidden or symbolic) meaning beyond just the literal sense.
    Derash (דְּרַשׁ) — from Hebrew darash: "inquire" ("seek") — the comparative (midrashic) meaning, as given through similar occurrences.
    Sod (סוֹד) (pronounced with a long O as in 'bone') — "secret" ("mystery") or the mystical meaning, as given through inspiration or revelation.

    Each type of Pardes interpretation examines the extended meaning of a text. As a general rule, the extended meaning never contradicts the base meaning. The Peshat means the plain or contextual meaning of the text. Remez is the allegorical meaning. Derash includes the metaphorical meaning, and Sod represents the hidden meaning. There is often considerable overlap, for example when legal understandings of a verse are influenced by mystical interpretations or when a "hint" is determined by comparing a word with other instances of the same word.""


    I've broken it down a little differently in that I have said Literal, Implied, Allegorical and Mystical.

    Two mindsets are addressed in Scripture. Those that look at the appearance of things and those that look behind the appearances. There is also considerable overlap here, as there are many denominations of both Christianity and Judaism.
    The book is different than any other book in that it relates information that matches your level of study.
    The words do not change but the level of experience of the reader is reflected in the information gleaned when reading.
    So, at the beginning of study the bible is read literally.
    Later it is necessary to look at implied meanings contained within the same words.
    Later still, it is necessary to look for allegorical meanings, and finally the Mystical or "hidden" meanings begin to show through.

    It could be likened to recieving an arithmatic book in grade school and using the same book all through highschool and college and the book would continue to teach you all through the years and studies in higher mathematics.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    And what does "prove itself" mean to you? I mean, you obviously don't believe there is a solid dome "firmament" holding up the waters that are "above," right?
    There is a firmament that exists but it has nothing to do with a solid dome.

    Ge 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.
    Ge 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven.

    I have commented that this firmament is heaven.
    Jesus told us to follow him.
    Joh 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven

    Jesus had a view of the world that differed from ours. Call it cosmic consciousness or Christ consciousness.
    He also said that he was one with the Father and that he was in heaven.

    The waters are the word of God who washes us with that word.
    The book is a book on growing in consciousness.
    The waters above the firmament are "living waters." (The Mystical interpretation, which is not interpretation at all.)
    The waters below the firmament are the interpretations below the Mystical.

    Until we begin to read the bible in the light of that level we are in fear of not knowing what our place is in this world. Because the guide of the bible isn't making sense. That is partially because we are mixing levels.

    This is the reason for the symbology of going into the promised land.
    They followed Joshua on dry land in the midst of the waters. Firmament. Kingdom of Heaven.
    We are to follow Jesus in the same way into the Real (as opposed to the shadow) Promised land that was promised to Jacob and his seed.
    The "waters above" were upstream and the "waters below" were downstream in the story of crossing the Jordan.
    The only "Firmament" when dealing with Spiritual experiences is "Following Jesus."

    "Surely the Lord is in this place and I knew it not." That is the awareness we are shooting for.
    "This Place", as we ultimately realize is inside of us.

    So how does it prove itself?
    Unlike other books, it proves itself to us, and not to everyone who happens to read it.
    If we believe it it proves itself, if we do not, it will not.
    Unlike other books it can speak to us in the here and now. This is why Paul calls the Scripture the "Oracles of God." It speaks.
    I am in no way exaggerating this aspect of it.

    The entire book, both Old and New Testaments speak of the New Covenant and what it means to us. If we believe it we recieve true spiritual knowledge of the promises and the growing awareness of "Christ in you, the hope of Glory."

    Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God;
    Col 1:26 Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints:
    Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this Mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

    Short of relating personal experiences this is the best way I can think of to explain it.
    Actually, I've been explaining it since I came to this website.
    The bible is called the living word for a reason.

    All the best,
    Bob
    Last edited by Bob May; 10-01-2011 at 04:27 PM.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Most conversations on this forum are based on the assumption that the Bible is the Word of God and fully trustworthy. I don't recall many, if any, that question that assumption. I would like to know why people do or do not believe the Bible.

    Personally, I first believed in the Bible as God's Word when I was 19 years old and had a dramatic "born again" conversion at a "Praise the Lord" festival in Vancouver Washington. My new faith lasted for a few months. I was constantly reading the Bible and feeling amazed all the time. Then one day I was sitting at the "Cottage Inn" restaurant in Kenmore, Washington, reading Matthew and encountered this verse:
    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
    I remember it as if it were yesterday. I felt the "bubble" of my faith simply "pop" as I read that passage and realized that it was not true. Jesus did not come back "with the glory of his father" during the lifetime of those standing there hearing him make this prediction. I was totally confused and profoundly disturbed. I went to talk to the folks who had prayed with me when I converted and they had no answer, but rather tried to cast out the "demon of doubt." It was not long before I forgot all about my new religion.

    Then a few years later I went to Washington State University to study Mathematics and Physics. I would see street preachers and confront them saying that if God wrote a book, I would expect it to be at least as precise and accurate as my Quantum Physics textbook. Then I met fellow student Robin Collins, who became my best friend. He is one of the smartest people I ever met (he got three degrees, Mathematics, Physics, and Philosophy) and was also a very sincere tongue-speaking born-again Christian. After lots of interaction with him, I "returned" to the faith for a while, but it ultimately faded again.

    Then I quit college after getting hung up on my PhD project and rode my bike from Seattle to Los Angeles and back, and then went to my first Rainbow Gathering in Texas (1988) after which I hitch-hiked all around the country. I became very interested in all forms of spirituality, and began searching all the worlds religions for the "ultimate unity" of them all. It was then that I encountered the I Ching, Astrology, Tarot, Kabbalah and the symbolic meaning of the Hebrew alphabet and gematria and a thousand other things. And during all my readings, I kept encountering references to the Bible. I was particularly intrigued by the Hebrew gematria of verses in the OT, and soon became convinced that it's alphanumeric design proved it was of God. I had forgotten all about Christ and thought I might convert to be a Jew. But then I met Mike Gridley who was a firm Christian. He pointed me back towards the NT and I began to search out Greek gematria of the NT and compare it to Hebrew gematria of the OT. It was at this time (1992) that I discovered my first "Holographs" and soon became convinced that the whole Bible was of God. And then I began to "realize" that I was a Christian - I felt like I was simply discovering faith in Christ "growing" in me of it's own accord. I used to liken myself to a pot of dirt in which the Word of God had been planted. I felt like I was discovering that I was a Christian rather than "choosing" it.

    It was around this time (1993) that I discovered the Isaiah-Bible Correlation which seemed to be a very strong confirmation that the Bible was designed by God. And then in 1995 I discovered the Bible Wheel and this completed the "threefold thread" that I felt was strong evidence of the divine origin of the Bible: 1) Biblical Holographs (Gematria), 2) Isaiah-Bible Correlation, 3) The Bible Wheel.

    As far as I know, the evidence presented in those three studies remains valid. And it is augmented by the "Big Picture" of fulfilled prophecy relating to the coming of Christ in the first century. These were the reasons that supported my belief that the Bible was the Word of God. Of course, it would have been pretty much meaningless if it had not been vivified by my personal experiences which I interpreted as "from God."

    So why am I no longer a Christian if the evidence for it still stands? Well, it's because "evidence" means nothing until it is interpreted. And I believe my interpretation of the evidence was wrong. Yes, there is evidence that there is something "supernatural" going on in the Bible, but no, it does not prove any particular version of the many "Christianities" that are derived from the many contradictory interpretations of the Bible.

    So those were my reasons. I would like to know your reasons. Why do you believe the Bible?
    I understand what you're going through. But approaching God with knowledge and reason isn't the way. You have to approach God with faith. Our minds are limited. The verse you pointed out is an interesting verse which I will ask my friends but my guess on that verse is that Jesus is referring to what happened in the next chapter:
    Matthew 16:28 KJV - Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

    Matthew 17:1 KJV - And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
    Matthew 17:2 KJV - And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
    Matthew 17:3 KJV - And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
    Matthew 17:4 KJV - Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
    Matthew 17:5 KJV - While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
    Matthew 17:6 KJV - And when the disciples heard [it], they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
    Matthew 17:7 KJV - And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
    Matthew 17:8 KJV - And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
    There might be a good reason which we who are unlearned have missed. We're not called Christians because we're knowledgeable, but because we believe.

    My friends, would you walk out the door in the morning and refuse to believe there is no God? Wouldn't that create anger and frustration? What's your goal in life? Why do you live? What's the point of all this?

    I find that we, lie Jonah are thrown out of our comfort zone into a world of cruelty where on one hand are chastened by God if we refuse to preach and live and on the other hand are scoffed by unbelieving men because we don't have that much knowledge but by God's miracle we do survive another day.

    What kind of words would you give to a dying person to encourage him?

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    I understand what you're going through. But approaching God with knowledge and reason isn't the way. You have to approach God with faith. Our minds are limited.
    I'm sure many Mormons and Muslims would agree with you.

    Without using reason, how am I supposed to discern between the True Religion (TM) and all the false ones?

    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    The verse you pointed out is an interesting verse which I will ask my friends but my guess on that verse is that Jesus is referring to what happened in the next chapter:
    Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. 28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

    Matthew 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart, 2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light. 3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. 4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. 5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
    Yes indeed, that was the solution I found when I became Christian again in my 30s. And I think it's a pretty good one ... especially when compared with 2 Peter:
    2 Peter 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty. 17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. 18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
    Peter described the vision on the mount of transfiguration as a revelation of the "power and coming" of the Lord. It's too bad that few people have any understanding of the Bible, despite being Christians their whole lives. Like I said, the folks I talked to about this problem years ago had no answer, and tried rather to cast out the "demon of doubt." That's what's wrong with Christianity - it's most ardent followers tend to be totally ignorant of what the Bible actually states, and are full of mindless superstitions almost as bad as voodoo.

    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    There might be a good reason which we who are unlearned have missed. We're not called Christians because we're knowledgeable, but because we believe.
    And that's the same reason Muslims are called Muslims. I don't see the value in blind "belief." On the contrary, I think the teaching of blind belief to be one of the worst things that religion has done to humanity. It leads to endless evils. Our only hope is to use our minds. We all died of the plague when all we could do is "believe" and beg God to heal us. He never did. He let us die by the millions until we figured out how to kill the bugs with antibiotics. This seems to me to be a primary proof against belief in the kind of God presented in theistic religions like Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.

    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    My friends, would you walk out the door in the morning and refuse to believe there is no God? Wouldn't that create anger and frustration? What's your goal in life? Why do you live? What's the point of all this?
    Life is fuller and better without false ideas of "gods" of the Abrahamic religions. The world makes a lot more sense when I don't have to explain why there really is a God who goes about acting like he doesn't really exist.

    Haven't you ever wondered why Christians talk out of both sides of their mouths. First they say that we should believe in God and give many reasons why, and then they say that it's all about faith and not reasons. In other words, they just say whatever to try to make their religion seem true, just like Mormons, Muslims, Hindues, JWs, Roman Catholics, and everyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    I find that we, lie Jonah are thrown out of our comfort zone into a world of cruelty where on one hand are chastened by God if we refuse to preach and live and on the other hand are scoffed by unbelieving men because we don't have that much knowledge but by God's miracle we do survive another day.
    Exactly how did you determine that it was God who was "chastening" you? Did he leave a calling card? A voice mail? Or is it possible that you just assumed that the unpleasant event was caused by God? This is the amazing thing that most Christians do. They interpret random events as coming from God without any evidence at all. At the really interesting thing is that Muslims do the same thing. And JWs. And Catholics. They all attribute their own thoughts to God.

    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    What kind of words would you give to a dying person to encourage him?
    Kind words.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  7. #7
    If there is a Creator; written language and the capacity of humans to interact with it is one of parts of his creation.

    It made logical sense to me that if this Creator is a creator of LOVE; that his creation, including written forms of communication, would reflect characteristics, evidence and testimony of himself.

    In other words; If there is a Creator/designer of mankind and written and spoken language and communication which are part of the capacities of that mankind; then would a God of Love interject into the human race a relatively trustworthy written evidence and testimony of his Character, essence, ways and will for mankind?

    Yes, It would be logical and reasonable to consider and expect that a Loving Creator God of the depths and abilities of mankind and of Life would include, among the testimonies and evidences of his being, a relatively accurate [very accurate in original form] written testimony and progressive revelation of his being, his Love, his nature, powers and so forth.

    Would it also be reasonable and logical that this Creator entity would come himself into existence in the highest form of his Creation in Love to satisfy mens doubts and fears and to verify and confirm his essence, his written word; his being, His Love, his existence, his character, ways and will of Freedom?

    Wouldn't' both of these actions seem reasonable and logical TO YOU for a Creator God of Love who had created the depths of mankind to perform????

    Yes, it would be logical and reasonable to expect a Spirit Creator of Love to enter himself into Creation and impart his Spirit into his Created after the confirmation and testimony of his being, character and will. The Bible is the only record I know of which claims and verifies through the fulfillment of prophecies about Him that a specific seed of God entered and remains into the Creation.

    The existence of the written record, as well as the incarnation are the evidences of the Creator reaching out in Love to maintain and re-establish a friendship of knowledge and freedom [John 17:3] with his beloved.

    I find it interesting that Christ is called 'the Word" while the written words could also be considered an 'incarnation' of God's word into humanity through their being given to the prophets who heard them.

    Written [and spoken] language and the means and abilities of mankind to communicate through this medium is part of the Creation and of a testimony to the Creator; just as mathematical formulas and scientific laws are part of evidence of order and harmony of the Creation. All these means as well as the visible intricacies and depth of Creation testify to the Creator.

    Incidently, the preterist views of fulfilled prophecies fits right in with the positive goodness and character of the living God and of Life as they confirm his existence, powers, essence and positive and Good will. This is shown through the full circle from the Edenic beginning in ignorance to the personal Edenic restoration in personal experiential knowledge of the New Garden depicted in Revelation [Ez 36 also] . The old garden people failed in somewhat innocent ignorance while the 'new Garden' people succeed in experiential knowledge, in forgiveness and forgetting of sin, in Freedom and Love. John 17:3; And this is eternal life; that we might know [experientially] God and Jesus his son.

    I think you may be confusing some of the interpretations, doctrines and legalistic deadening aspects of the religion of Christianity versus the understanding and experiential knowledge of God which can and does come through the written and incarnate testimony of his being.
    Last edited by EndtimesDeut32/70AD; 10-03-2011 at 06:03 AM.
    1Thess 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    If you are oppressed and enslaved by religious law, you may have a tendency to oppress, enslave and attempt to lord over others who are free.

  8. #8
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    The Word

    Richard

    Thank-you for opening the door to a most essential question. I found the testimony of your personal journey toward faith to be very interesting. You appear to me as a very unusual person who has exceeded the formal and experiential education of others.

    In answer to your basic question, I have listed below a few of the reasons I accept the Bible as a revelation from God.

    1. It answered (for me) the most fundamental questions of:

    a) Origin
    b) Purpose
    c) Morality
    d) Destiny

    2. The fellowship of other believers.

    3. Spiritual Revelation

    4. Biblical Prophecy

    A few weeks ago I was sitting in our Sunday School class with a group of believers, and the thought occurred to me "how is it that many in this class believe that there is a god? They have never heard his audible voice nor seen his physical body". The only evidence they had for His existence was the same as mine... The Word.

    Even the folowing questions are answered in the Word:

    Why is it that there are so many different religions?
    Why are there so many well educated individuals who are not convinced there is a god?
    Does this creation we find ourselves in exhibit credible evidence for intelligent design?

    Considering the many versions of religion, Only the biblical one makes sense to me because it offers the only credible solution to man's problem. After all, God does not need men to carry out his work of exterminating infidels. Why would he? If this was the type of god he was, it seems he would take the pleasure of doing it himself. Neither does he accept the humiliating acts of an individual to earn his pardon for misdeeds, as many religions teach "this you must do to attain". There is ample evidence that man is a rule and law breaker.

    You too are evidence of His Word. You are not the first believer to lose or question your own faith. Adonirum Judson, missionary to Burma had his "departure experience" as well, yet returned as you will also.

    Richard, you are on the list of intellectuals who have been influenced and challenged by the Word.

    God Bless you Richard. You have made great contributions to the community of believers in The Word and I suspect that you will continue to do so as time goes by.

    John

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by EndtimesDeut32/70AD View Post
    If there is a Creator; written language and the capacity of humans to interact with it is one of parts of his creation.

    It made logical sense to me that if this Creator is a creator of LOVE; that his creation, including written forms of communication, would reflect characteristics, evidence and testimony of himself.

    In other words; If there is a Creator/designer of mankind and written and spoken language and communication which are part of the capacities of that mankind; then would a God of Love interject into the human race a relatively trustworthy written evidence and testimony of his Character, essence, ways and will for mankind?

    Yes, It would be logical and reasonable to consider and expect that a Loving Creator God of the depths and abilities of mankind and of Life would include, among the testimonies and evidences of his being, a relatively accurate [very accurate in original form] written testimony and progressive revelation of his being, his Love, his nature, powers and so forth.

    Would it also be reasonable and logical that this Creator entity would come himself into existence in the highest form of his Creation in Love to satisfy mens doubts and fears and to verify and confirm his essence, his written word; his being, His Love, his existence, his character, ways and will of Freedom?

    Wouldn't' both of these actions seem reasonable and logical TO YOU for a Creator God of Love who had created the depths of mankind to perform????

    Yes, it would be logical and reasonable to expect a Spirit Creator of Love to enter himself into Creation and impart his Spirit into his Created after the confirmation and testimony of his being, character and will. The Bible is the only record I know of which claims and verifies through the fulfillment of prophecies about Him that a specific seed of God entered and remains into the Creation.
    I agree it would seem logical that a God who exists would provide a book that accurately revealed his character and will. And Muslims would agree. And Mormons. And Jews. And Hindus. So the question seems to remain unanswered. Why do you believe the Bible as opposed to some other book like the Koran or the Book of Mormon? And why do you believe one version of the Bible as opposed to some other - e.g. Protestant vs. Roman Catholic vs. Greek Orthodox?

    If I use the same kind of logic as you, I would have to reject the Bible because it has many characteristics that indicate it is not from the true God. For example: it has a strong male bias against women, it has many errors in logic and fact, it attributes many moral abominations to God. So if I use my own "expectations" concerning my a priori ideas about what a God would do, then I would conclude that the Bible is not of God.

    All the best.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by jce View Post
    Richard

    Thank-you for opening the door to a most essential question. I found the testimony of your personal journey toward faith to be very interesting. You appear to me as a very unusual person who has exceeded the formal and experiential education of others.

    In answer to your basic question, I have listed below a few of the reasons I accept the Bible as a revelation from God.

    1. It answered (for me) the most fundamental questions of:

    a) Origin
    b) Purpose
    c) Morality
    d) Destiny

    2. The fellowship of other believers.

    3. Spiritual Revelation

    4. Biblical Prophecy

    A few weeks ago I was sitting in our Sunday School class with a group of believers, and the thought occurred to me "how is it that many in this class believe that there is a god? They have never heard his audible voice nor seen his physical body". The only evidence they had for His existence was the same as mine... The Word.

    Even the folowing questions are answered in the Word:

    Why is it that there are so many different religions?
    Why are there so many well educated individuals who are not convinced there is a god?
    Does this creation we find ourselves in exhibit credible evidence for intelligent design?
    Hi John,

    Thanks for weighing in on this question.

    Your answers make a lot of sense to me, even though I don't find satisfaction with those answers myself. Here are my reasons:

    1. a) Origin: The Bible does not give a true account of origins if it is interpreted literally. Indeed, the Bible is the source of much error in this regard, and has caused many people to reject much scientific truth.

    1. b) Purpose: This was a very strong line of evidence for me because the Bible presents an amazingly coherent "Big Picture" spanning the whole Bible from Creation, Fall, Redemption, Re-Creation. I am still impressed with this line of evidence, but it has one fundamental shortcoming. I don't believe the story is "true" - but it is a great story. So I am guessing it is a "teaching story" like all the other parables in the Bible, and not meant to be interpreted literally.

    1. c) Morality: This is a mixed bag for me. On the one hand, the Bible presents very high morals like the Golden Rule and Love. On the other hand, it says that God commanded his people to act like maniacal merciless genocidal baby killers. And besides that, there is no logic to why God must demand punishment before he is willing to forgive. Any human can forgive without demanding punishment. Are we greater than God?

    1. d) Destiny: Don't know what you are getting at here.

    2. The fellowship of other believers. The lack of this, after decades of effort, did not confirm but rather eroded my faith. Especially because I witnessed how the Christian religion tends to corrupt the minds and morals of many people. It corrupts their minds because they attempt to defend the indefensible, and it corrupts their morals when they believe that all people are intrinsically evil and that it's OK to murder babies if God says so, etc.

    3. Spiritual Revelation: I very much relate to this, as it was the source of my of my living faith. But a little reflection soon reveals that Muslims and Mormons feel their religions are confirmed the same way, and that this is because we humans simply map our personal numinous experiences onto whatever religion we happen to believe. It's just confirmation bias - a believer of any religion will take their numinous experiences as proof of their religion. It really doesn't prove anything.

    4. Biblical Prophecy: This is one of the greatest proofs of the Bible. And it also is one of the greatest ironies that most Christians fiercely reject it as if it were the greatest of heresies. I'm talking about the prophecies of the Olivet Discourse and Revelation that were fulfilled in 70 AD. See this article from 1805 entitled THE DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM: An Absolute and Irresistible Proof of the Divine Origin of Christianity. And while reading it, don't forget that it's conclusions are now rejected by nearly all "Christians."

    Well, I gotta go for my morning walk with Rose. I'll answer more when we get back.

    Great chatting!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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