Holy Spirit: Pledge or Down Payment?

[Edward Goodie]

TruthSeeker1959,

Please could you explain why you think there could have been a change in the Holy Spirit's power?

To be more specific, I don't understand how you link that possible conclusion with the existence of many denominations and theological differences.

My best guess before hearing your answer is, that you don't really understand that renewing of the mind by the Holy Spirit, which is the only way Paul's aspiration for the Church will ever come to pass.

Ephesians 4:1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called, 2 with all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love; 3 endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace. 4 [There is] one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 one God and Father of all, who [is] above all, and through all, and in you all.

7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; 12 for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: 13 till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: 14 that we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; 15 but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, [even] Christ: 16 from whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: '

Yes, I believe there has been some kind of change.

I will list those two Scriptures applying to the ministry of the Holy Spirit back in the first century.

John 16:13 - Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

John 14:26 - But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

To me, all I have to do is ask you four questions. If you are unable to answer all four in the affirmative, then something has changed.

1. Have you and every other Christian been guided into all truth?
2. Have you and every other Christian been shown things to come?
3. Have you and every other Christian been taught all things?
4. Have you and every other Christian remembered everything said to the disciples?

If any two Christians disagree with their understanding of any one verse, passage, definition, etc. from the Bible, then it is positive proof that ALL have not been guided into all truth, etc.

I still want to know WHEN and WHY this changed?

[Charisma]

Hi TruthSeeker1959,

Thanks for your reply to my questions.

I believe the answers are in the passage from Ephesians 4 which I posted, and other parts of the New Testament (and Old, if taken together), and, that your questions are based on false premises.

Anyway, who are you, or anyone (including me) to judge whether or not another brother has seen (or not seen) what God has shown Him? Jesus said we are entitled to judge by the fruit, but that pre-supposes we will recognise fruit when we see it. Fruit comes at the end of a long process involving time, seasons, rest, growth, climate and husbandry. It's not so simple!

[Edward Goodie]

Hi TruthSeeker1959,

Thanks for your reply to my questions.

I believe the answers are in the passage from Ephesians 4 which I posted, and other parts of the New Testament (and Old, if taken together), and, that your questions are based on false premises.

Anyway, who are you, or anyone (including me) to judge whether or not another brother has seen (or not seen) what God has shown Him? Jesus said we are entitled to judge by the fruit, but that pre-supposes we will recognise fruit when we see it. Fruit comes at the end of a long process involving time, seasons, rest, growth, climate and husbandry. It's not so simple!

Whenever two Christians disagree on any one biblical item, it is proof that the ministry of the Holy Spirit has somehow changed.

Thanks for the interaction...

[Charisma]

Hi TruthSeeker1959,

Whenever two Christians disagree on any one biblical item, it is proof that the ministry of the Holy Spirit has somehow changed.

I really can not agree. It's us humans who have to be changed into the likeness of Christ, by co-operating with the work of the Holy Spirit to renew our minds and bring what we believe into line with the word of God to us.

Coloss 3:10 And have put on the new [man], which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

Ephesians 4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God.


God Himself, the unchanging God - Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and forever - is making intercession for us, that we may come into this understanding.

[Bob May]

Bob, where is the αρραβωνα in Exodus 12:13? I ask because everything you said springboards from the foundation you set in Exodus 12:13.

I see no justification for you to use "token" and equate it with the "earnest."

Ex 12:7 And they shall take of the blood, and strike it on the two side posts and on the upper door post of the houses, wherein they shall eat it.
Ex 12:13 And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.

The two side posts and upper doorposts form the tav cross.
The blood on the cross.
That letter Tav is in the form of the cross in the ancient Hebrew alphabet.
It is the seal, sign, covenant of what came about because Jesus died and spilled his blood on that cross.

I was originally going to say that the circumcision was the token just as the circumcision of our hearts is the token for us, but then it hit me WHY the circumcision is the token.
It is because there is spilling of blood involved. And without blood there is no remission of sins.
Without the Realization that we are forgiven because of the Cross we cannot believe the New Covenant and all that it promises to us. Because it does not apply to us.
With that realization the word opens up to us because we know that the verses concerned with forgiveness and beyond that to life and the opening of our ability to percieve Spiritual things do apply to us.

Blood is spirit which gives life. The life is in the blood.
If we read the word of God and believe, we are reading it in the Spirit. And the Blood/Life/Spirit shine through.
The letter killeth but the Spirit giveth life.

Promises are of no use to us if we are not able to apply them to ourselves.

There is no change in the ministry of the Holy Spirit as far as I can tell.
The change is in us.
Maybe I am just not understanding you.


Truthseeker>
""Okay, Bob. I wanted to discuss Genesis 38:20 and its use of αρραβωνα, but I guess that is not going to happen.

Why is the ONLY word for "earnest" expressed by αρραβωνα?

That seems very significant to me.

Why didn't Mark use αρραβωνα for token in Mark 14:44 instead of using συσσημον?

Why didn't the apostle Paul use αρραβωνα for token in Philippians 1:28 instead of using ενδειξις? Or how about why he used ενδειγμα for token in 2 Thessalonians 1:5? Or how about why he used σημειον for token in 2 Thessalonians 3:17?""

OK, what are you getting at?

Bob

[Bob May]

Yes, I believe there has been some kind of change.

I will list those two Scriptures applying to the ministry of the Holy Spirit back in the first century.

John 16:13 - Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

John 14:26 - But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

I don't see any change there. It's the same today as it was back then.

To me, all I have to do is ask you four questions. If you are unable to answer all four in the affirmative, then something has changed.

1. Have you and every other Christian been guided into all truth?
2. Have you and every other Christian been shown things to come?
3. Have you and every other Christian been taught all things?
4. Have you and every other Christian remembered everything said to the disciples?

OK, I'll play.

1. Not yet.
2. Not yet.
3. Not yet.
4. Not yet.

If any two Christians disagree with their understanding of any one verse, passage, definition, etc. from the Bible, then it is positive proof that ALL have not been guided into all truth, etc.

Depends on what you mean when you say Christians.

Ac 11:26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.
Can we agree that we are speaking about the Disciples of Jesus Christ?

If so, then the people that are being spoken of are those who are taught by Jesus. His disciples. Both then and today.
And it did not say that your items 1 through 4 would happen immediately.

Neither did it say that those things would not stop happening if a disciple would fall into unbelief or fall from Grace.

Being led into all truth is a journey. He did not say these things would happen immediately.

I can answer in the affirmative to all of the above if you remove the stipulations concerning ALL truth, ALL things, And EVERYTHING he said to his disciples. (Which, by the way is speaking of US if we are being taught by him.)
In other words, he is in the process of doing exactly what he said.
Your other stipulation concerning other "Christians" I cannot comment on because I am not every other Christian.
I am not even any other Christian.

The Spirit teaches me, so I guess that makes me a disciple.
That would be true for anyone who recieves revelation from the Scriptures.
If we pay attention to that and acknowledge it we would recieve more and more because:

Mr 4:24 And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given. Mr 4:25 For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath. Mr 4:26 And he said, So is the kingdom of God, as if a man should cast seed into the ground;

It is speaking about HEARING. Acknowledge it when you get it because that is the Earnest of the Spirit. Realize that it is He that is speaking to you. TAKE HEED!!!

If you want proof that you can recieve All Truth, Be shown things to come, Be taught all things, and remember Everything that he said to his disciples (one of which is you).

Then you have to start by recieving and acknowledging it when you recieve Some truth, Some things, Some things to come, Have Some things that the Disciples were told come to mind at appropriate times.
Then you will recieve More of each of those things.

Then, if you continue believing his word you will recieve all because you will continue to be his disciple. (Taught by him)

I still want to know WHEN and WHY this changed?

[/QUOTE]

It hasn't!!!

Joh 8:31 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; Joh 8:32 And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Bob

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I will list those two Scriptures applying to the ministry of the Holy Spirit back in the first century.

John 16:13 - Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

John 14:26 - But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

To me, all I have to do is ask you four questions. If you are unable to answer all four in the affirmative, then something has changed.

1. Have you and every other Christian been guided into all truth?
2. Have you and every other Christian been shown things to come?
3. Have you and every other Christian been taught all things?
4. Have you and every other Christian remembered everything said to the disciples?

If any two Christians disagree with their understanding of any one verse, passage, definition, etc. from the Bible, then it is positive proof that ALL have not been guided into all truth, etc.

You are stumbling over a sloppy reading of scripture. First, Jesus was talking to 11 men with whom he cut the everlasting covenant, not you and I. So the premises for your argument are false. This is especially true of #4; he was speaking directly to 11 individuals with whom he had spent much time and to whom he uttered many words. You and I weren't there, so they cannot apply to us. Step away from the delusion that everything uttered to them was uttered to us. The truths certainly apply to us in some way (especially John 16:13), but one must consider the context to spiritually discern what is actually being said.

Also, the word 'all' doesn't always mean every. Jesus' declaration that the holy spirit would lead them into all truth doesn't mean that they would know everything then, but that the spirit was the source who would lead them into everything they were capable of of understanding, and were anointed to understand. In other words, the spirit of truth is the only source of truth.

Also, Jesus was addressing his body. As a whole the body of Christ will understand everything, but no individual will ever know everything. We are a body; what one lacks another has, and the ministry is to all.

The ministry of the holy spirit has not changed. It's mission is to glorify the son, and lead the nation of God into all truth; always has been, is now, and always will be. Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today, forever. God, the father, the same yesterday, today, forever. The holy spirit the same yesterday, today, forever.

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

If you want proof that you can recieve All Truth, Be shown things to come, Be taught all things, and remember Everything that he said to his disciples (one of which is you).

Then you have to start by recieving and acknowledging it when you recieve Some truth, Some things, Some things to come, Have Some things that the Disciples were told come to mind at appropriate times.
Then you will recieve More of each of those things.

Then, if you continue believing his word you will recieve all because you will continue to be his disciple. (Taught by him)

Excellent point, Bob. Your words apply on so many levels. Consider John 3:12:

If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you heavenly things? John 3:12

In other words, how can one believe spiritual truths if he has an unbelieving heart towards physical truths? Also consider 1 John 4:20:

If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? 1 John 4:20

In other words, how can a man possibly love the supreme spiritual being if he doesn't have enough love in his heart to even love physical beings who are made in his image?

We must be faithful with what we have been given before we are given more. How can a man run a marathon except he condition his physical body? Likewise, how can a man know all things of God except he condition his spiritual body? Growth is through faith, faith is through hearing, and hearing is through receiving the word of God. As you well know, people can listen, but not hear.

btw, italicized quoted scriptures would make your most excellent comments much easier to read. (I hope I said that in a nice way )

[Edward Goodie]

Step away from the delusion that everything uttered to them was uttered to us.

I am the least of those to be concerned with that. Speak to the futurists. They are the ones who ignore the historicity of audience relevance.

But thanks for associating me with being deluded. I feel so heart-warmed by it.

Have a nice day.