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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by EndtimesDeut32/70AD View Post
    This is sad..

    Coincidently, I caught one of BG's sermons from what looked like the '60's or early '70's on TV as a re-run on Sat or Sun night. He said that had gone to Pastors all over the globe asking them if there were any hope for the world... No, they said.... the only hope for the world is the return of Jesus Christ .... they said...and it was coming soon.... Then he went on to preach a better get ready message.

    I guess according to them, he [Jesus] didnt' get it done the first time??

    I didnt' realize that the 'end times' message was such part of his teaching; and it may not have been when he started. I thought he used to preach out of the gospels of a positive message and a changed life of emulating Christ. I did know that he was associated with presidents and some jews and word had it the masonic order.

    How contrasting is that message with the message of Hope, life, power, love and the continuation of the [spiritual] seed and example of the man renamed Israel till the cows come home... no.. for as long as the ordinances of heaven continue.

    What hope and future does this give young people to experience God and life to it's fullest and abundance or to work for positive impact and the divinity of life.

    With the adoption as sons comes power and responsibilty of impact and effect for good. These gloomers and doomers weaken, rob steal, kill and destroy.

    How does Paul say:....Romans 10:5ff... Don't look to the heavens to bring Christ down, nor to the earth to bring Christ up from the dead; the WORD, Jesus, is in you, in your mouth and in your heart.

    Is the teaching the future message of the return of Christ to save the world the same as rejecting his previous coming, instructions, salvation, lordship and the indwelling of the heart AND actually part of the spirit of anti-christ and anti-life; anti-god, anti-good?

    I agree that it is the result of false teachings, doctrines and interpretations. She [they] may not know any different. It may be the culmination of 2000 yrs of censorship and even hellenist influencing the ECF's.

    Here's a quote from Samuel Lee from the early 1800's.
    I couldn't have stated this any better my friend. And I fully agree with what Samuel Lee wrote. It's quite clear that Futurism embraces the Church as a sub-standard kingdom, and not the "intended" kingdom of the Prophets. In doing so, their message thwarts the importance of repentance, the inspiration to make a better world through the message of the gospel, and instead seeks to recruit a band of believers who's message is simply to "get ready". Get ready for what? How do you get ready? By searching for signs, thereby creating huge stumbling blocks to not only ourselves, but to others as well? This is one reason why I wanted to discontinue debating eschatology because I've spend more than 15 years debating these topics, only to find myself drifting from what's really important in my life; repentance, and saving souls by the message of the gospels.

    Futurism, in my opinion, has a false sense of urgency; the teaching to reduce the importance of the Church as nothing more than a temporal community designed to collect souls and await for another kingdom. This, as we all know, is very damaging testimony, not only to themselves as false teachers, but also to those whom they recruit in their rather large camps.

    Finally, I too arrived at the conclusion that a few Early Church Fathers were being misled by Hellenistic Jews. It was they who introduced the idea that God was going to restore the nation of Israel, and bring in the true Messiah; not necessarily Jesus. And to this day, some residing in secular Israel are still hoping for this. Sadly, so-called "Christians" of the John Haggee camp are promoting their desire to seek for their Messiah, and not Jesus. These Zionist sympathizer's are ruining the testimony of the Church, its importance, and its history.

    Paul says it quite clear that the Church is the Israel of God (Galatians). Anyone who views the Church as a temporary kingdom, and not THE kingdom, are lying to themselves, lying to others, and are teaching a doctrine that was not passed down by the Apostles. Granted all await to pass on from this earth, to the heavenly kingdom to be with the Lord where He is. But to expect to bring Christ down from His heavenly rule, as though this were Prophesied, is a false expectation, and one that isn't even required. There's nothing wrong with God ruling the world from His rightful habitat, being heaven. But man wants to bring Christ down from above (Romans 10) to rule the world, when these Futurists fail to understand that He already does rule the world; for He and His counsel decides the faith of any Nation who betrays Him; look at what's happening to the United States. But more importantly, He rules the world within us; the Saints who serve as His shining stars; His temple; and His examples of Holiness; at least we should be living Holy lives.

    Good post brother. I look forward to more from you.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  2. #12
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    I don't understand why some people are so eager to condemn sinners. They require our prayers . Wasn't that what Jesus was here for? "Those who are well, do not need a physician". Even if sinners so what? WE are All sinners and fall short of the glory of God. The present Israelis can trace their ancestry to the 12 tribes of israel and theoretically, if they have some specks of Jewish blood and lived in Israel, they are considered as Jews.
    You apparently missed the point Cheow. A blind man cannot lead another blind man; both will fall into the pit. Futurism supports a nation of anti-God behavior, and believes that supporting their agenda and beliefs, will somehow generate special favoritism from God. This is false and is nothing more than the dead walking among the dead.

    I have answered that question and as usual, you just ignore it. As we all agree that trees means nations and therefore all the tres mean the nations that were at the time of Israel's independence and they too were also struggling to gain independence or budding countries such as India, Pakistan, 1947, Jordan, 1946, Indonesia 1945 etc.
    Good grief Cheow. And this has nothing to do with Luke 21. How much sense does it make for Christ, in answering the questions of the Apostles about the temple's destruction (when it was going to happen), to change the subject about a future rebirth of Israel that would not even be within the time-line? The temple was destroyed 2000 years ago, and this so-called rebirth of Israel, and not the "nations" 2000 years after the temple's destruction, doesn't fit the context of Luke 21. Luke does not record the inferred question as believed by Futurists in Matthew 24.

    The answer you give is what's called an "inference" from a non-contextual basis. Therefore, your idea is proven false. The text says nothing of a rebirth to Israel of the flesh, or even the surrounding nations, and you should know this. It is highly irregular to twist scripture into reading what is not there. Do we need to have a line-by-line study of Luke 21? Just say the word, and I'll be glad to assist you. But you've got to have an open heart and mind, willing to learn what the word of God says, and NOT what you want it to say, as you've just shown.

    The fig tree and all the trees represent the nation Israel and all the other countries. Now, Israel gain its independence in 1948 and there are many countries that gained their independence during those times after WW2. This is the period in which people began to realize the fallability of the colonial powers and they fought to gain their independence....India, Pakistan, Indonesia etc. Please see the long list of nations that gain indepedence after WW2:
    Again, this is all inferences taken way out of context. Interpreting scripture in such fashion leads to more confusion, and furthermore, destroys the integrity and history of the Church. Your belief here is not founded on good Biblical principals of study. I've said it before, and I'll say it again. CONTEXT must be retained any in interpretation of scripture. We can debate Revelation, knowing that it's a difficult letter to understand, with all of its symbolism. But the Gospels is an entirely different story. You can try to use the "3rd question" theory from Matthew 24, but you CANNOT use this same principal to Luke 21 nor Mark 13; for neither asked about "His coming".

    The subject was the temple, and so contextually, the interpretation of Luke 21 and Mark 13 must be kept within that context. Anything else is nothing more than a pack of lies.

    Same goes to you too. I do not wish to go on discussing this topic and related topic on "this generation" again which were already discussed. Say whatever you want, but to say that you are absolutely right and everyone is wrong is a self-fulfilling prophesy. Have God told you that you are absolutely right? If so, please let us know.
    But I am right because it's what the word of God says. Luke 21 says nothing about the Fig Tree representing Israel. The context is the temple and the time of its destruction. Contextually, when the events began to unfold, like the Fig Tree indicating summer was near, the events were an indication that its destruction was near. Furthermore, the destruction of the temple would bring forth the true temple; the temple of God as the Church, also known as the Israel of God (Galatians).

    God was removing the Jerusalem below, to perpetually establish the Jerusalem from above. He was bringing forth the kingdom, and the events listed in Luke 21, Mark 13, and Matthew 24, were all indications that Jerusalem from below would soon be destroyed, giving full reign and control to the Jerusalem from above (the heavenly Jerusalem), existing in the Church here on earth. This is the logical interpretation based on the context of Luke 21, Mark 13, and Matthew 24.

    Lastly, as I've stated, you CANNOT willfully alter the meaning of "This generation" in Luke 21, Matthew 24, nor Mark 13. Per your own rules, if "Fig Tree" must mean Israel because of how it's used in other portions of the Bible, then by YOUR OWN RULE, you must use "THIS GENERATION" in how it's used in the rest of scripture as well. YOUR RULE Cheow; not mine.

    This contradiction and selective hearing is a perfect example of how and why Futurists are wrong. And if me being right makes me wrong in your eyes, then I certainly don't want to be right.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  3. #13
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    A contextual interpretation of the Fig Tree and all the trees.

    29 Then He spoke to them a parable: “Look at the fig tree, and all the trees. 30 When they are already budding, you see and know for yourselves that summer is now near. 31 So you also, when you see these things happening, know that the kingdom of God is near. 32 Assuredly, I say to you, this generation will by no means pass away till all things take place. 33 Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will by no means pass away.

    Futurists mistaken define "these things" as the budding/rebirth of Israel of the flesh. Unfortunately, this an inference made outside of the context. "these things" are plural, and not singular. Interpreting "these things" as representing the rebirth of Israel and the surrounding nations, does not fit the context of what the Apostles asked Jesus. Per Luke 21, here is the question asked:

    5 Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 6 “These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down.” 7 So they asked Him, saying, “Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?”

    "These things" have to do with the temple as we've just read in verse 5. The temple would be brought down to the ground. And according to history, this was accomplished in 70AD, when the Roman alliance sacked Jerusalem, and murdered more than a million Jews, if not taken captive or enslaved. Out of astonishment and curiosity, the Apostles asked Jesus how they would know when this destruction was about to take place. He then gives them a list of events that were to happen, one of which would directly affection most of them; their execution. The events are thus listed as "these things", of which Jesus stated would happen. THEN, when they begin to see "these things", as recorded in verses Luke 21: 8-28, the end of the age would come, giving way for the new age of the Kingdom (verse 31).

    So the conclusive context of Luke chapter 21 is not about the rebirth of Israel, as there is nothing within the context to suggest this. Futurists reach for a long shot by changing the context of the Fig Tree from a parable regarding the birth of a new age, into the rebirth of Israel. Yet this had absolutely nothing to do with what the Apostles asked, and thus cannot be understood from its context. The clear, and easily understood interpretation of the Fig Tree and all the trees was a parable used to identify that "things" which took place in the 60's AD, were indications of the temples destruction. The "things" were compared to a woman's travail prior to giving birth. What was to be born immediately after the destruction of the temple? Again, the answer is in verse 31; the answer is THE KINGDOM of God/Israel of God. NOT Israel of the flesh, as Futurists interpret.

    Lastly, Jesus said that "these things" would come upon "this generation". As clearly attested, this astonishing promise/warning was made towards the Pharisees as recorded in Matthew 23. Jesus made this statement 13 times in reference to His generation. And in all these circumstances, the generation applied grammatically and historically to His generation. Futurists, for obvious reasons, refuse to accept this truth because it contradicts their theology. So instead of a naturally derived interpretation from the text, they have to add lost of commentary, twist the grammatical structure of certain phrases or words, and insert bits and pieces of detail in order to alter the plain meaning of the text. If you would review Cheow's detailed reinterpretation of Luke 21, you will note the excessive alterations of his interpretation to force-fit the text into reading what he wants it to read, and not how Christ plainly spoke. His only excuse is that the "Fig Tree" was a parable. And you'll note with all Futurists, any parable gives them plenty of wiggle room to interpret in any fashion they desire, as long as it fits their paradigm. And thus explains the ongoing problems with false interpretations, false/failed predictions, and a complete lack of understanding for the Church (most anyways).

    In conclusion, Futurists are clearly proven wrong, without any shadow of doubt. The budding of the Fig Tree and all the trees was a parable used to explain the coming promised kingdom of God. But before this could happen, Jerusalem of the earth had to be destroyed, so that the Jerusalem from above (Heavenly Jerusalem) could finally be completed. HE SETS ASIDE THE FIRST, TO ESTABLISH THE SECOND.

    Hebrews 8:13
    In that He says, “A new covenant, ” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.



    The Grace of the Lord Jesus be with you all.

    Joe
    Last edited by TheForgiven; 09-20-2011 at 08:27 AM.
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  4. #14
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    CWH
    I don't understand why some people are so eager to condemn sinners. They require our prayers . Wasn't that what Jesus was here for? "Those who are well, do not need a physician". Even if sinners so what? WE are All sinners and fall short of the glory of God. The present Israelis can trace their ancestry to the 12 tribes of israel and theoretically, if they have some specks of Jewish blood and lived in Israel, they are considered as Jews.

    1) Those married to Christ/God should not consider themselves as 'sinners' in the New Covenant AGE. If you think that you are a sinner then and also think that you are a believer in Christ, you teach two different 'gospels' at the same time and by that are dead....

    2) You try to state two 'truths' that can not be proven of by either. No, the present 'Israelis' in Palistine can not trace their ancestry back to ANY tribe of ancient isreal. And by this the only way that any can claim that there is a 'speck' of 'jewish blood' (what about the 11 other tribes?) is by following a Rabbinical religion (through the mothers line, which in reality can only be traced back a few generations). This rabbinical religion is a cultist idolatry religion of its' own standing in the back drop of The Temple cultis.

    3) It would seem that the israeli flag shows where their true loyalties lie.

    http://countdowntothemessiah.com/Res...of_Solomon.pdf
    Last edited by Brother Les; 09-20-2011 at 01:58 PM.
    Brother Les

  5. #15
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Les View Post
    1) Those married to Christ/God should not consider themselves as 'sinners' in the New Covenant AGE. If you think that you are a sinner then and also think that you are a believer in Christ, you teach two different 'gospels' at the same time and by that are dead....
    It is absurd to think that we in the supposed New Covenant do not sin. Believers in Christ does not mean we are righteous and do not sin. RAM can testify that many evils were committed by so called Christians.

    2) You try to state two 'truths' that can not be proven of by either. No, the present 'Israelis' in Palistine can not trace their ancestry back to ANY tribe of ancient isreal. And by this the only way that any can claim that there is a 'speck' of 'jewish blood' (what about the 11 other tribes?) is by following a Rabbinical religion (through the mothers line, which in reality can only be traced back a few generations). This rabbinical religion is a cultist idolatry religion of its' own standing in the back drop of The Temple cultis.
    The descendants among the 12 tribes of Israel can be proven genetically. Unknowingly, you may already have some specks of Jewish blood in your blood. See my thread on "Where is the 12 tribes of Israel now?":

    http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1717

    3) It would seem that the israeli flag shows where their true loyalties lie.

    http://countdowntothemessiah.com/Res...of_Solomon.pdf
    I don't think a person's true loyalties lie in the national flag. We may sing and pledge our national anthems but does that really mean where our true loyalties lie? Given a choice, I would rather sing and pledge to the "flag of God" than to our national flag. Will you also?... The Star of David may have some pagan relations but it has been accepted centuries ago as representing the Jews. I do understand there are some objections to it. See wiki:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_of_David

    May the Grace of God be with everyone of us. Amen
    Last edited by CWH; 09-21-2011 at 04:45 AM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  6. #16
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    [QUOTE=CWH;34718]
    It is absurd to think that we in the supposed New Covenant do not sin. Believers in Christ does not mean we are righteous and do not sin. RAM can testify that many evils were committed by so called Christians.
    CWH,

    What covenant are you in?

    Are you in the old covenant worship system with animal sacrifices, feast days, day of atonement, physical high priest, etc.? Do you celebrate Passover as it is described in the Bible? This is old covenant stuff.

    Or are you in the new covenant with Christ? Christ is the fulfillment of the Law. Christ was sent to the house of Israel to bring them into the new covenant.

    Let's not forget how Paul was previously an old covenant accuser and persecutor of the new covenant Christians. Paul later was saved and became part of the new covenant. Because of this, he too, was persecuted by his own old covenant countrymen.

    How can there be any doubt that we, as Christians today, are part of the new covenant and not part of the old covenant (which is impossible to practice anyway because of a non-existing temple)?

    So, CHW, please tell us which covenant do you belong?

    If we are not righteous in this new covenant in Christ, then nothing can make us righteous!!

    What say ye in this regard?
    Last edited by Edward Goodie; 09-21-2011 at 09:43 AM.

  7. #17
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    It is absurd to think that we in the supposed New Covenant do not sin. Believers in Christ does not mean we are righteous and do not sin. RAM can testify that many evils were committed by so called Christians.
    We are righteous because of Christ, and it is He who is teaching us to turn away from sin. I'm sure you agree.

    The descendants among the 12 tribes of Israel can be proven genetically. Unknowingly, you may already have some specks of Jewish blood in your blood. See my thread on "Where is the 12 tribes of Israel now?":

    http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1717
    This doesn't count. In Old Testament Israel, they were required/commanded not to mingle their "sperm/seeds" with other races; they were to remain pure to their Tribe. Any child born out of non-tribal marriages were to be treated as Gentiles, and not permitted to remain in the land; they were to be outcasts. Therefore, the idea of a 1948 rebirth of Israel, is Bibliographically impossible, as there are no pure Tribes in the middle east. And the idea of God secretly restoring their Tribal birth is not scriptural; that's an unproven myth with no verse or Prophesy to back it up.

    Now in ancient times, during their Dispersion, they maintained their races. But after the first century, that eventually came to an end. And for the past 2000 years, no Israeli of the flesh have been able to maintain their birth-right. And therefore, are not Israeli except by secular law; not God's law.

    The races you see there now are not Israeli. They are a mixture of European descendants, along with Arabic descendants.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  8. #18
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    CWH
    I don't think a person's true loyalties lie in the national flag. We may sing and pledge our national anthems but does that really mean where our true loyalties lie? Given a choice, I would rather sing and pledge to the "flag of God" than to our national flag. Will you also?... The Star of David may have some pagan relations but it has been accepted centuries ago as representing the Jews. I do understand there are some objections to it. See wiki:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_of_David
    Follow the url that you have shown to where it leads.....

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabbalah

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grimoire

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbinic_Judaism


    None of this leads to King David or to the Mosaic Temple Cultus or Jacob and the original tribes. Rabbinical laws of the Talmud (oral traditions of ONE sect) have no foundation in the Bible as God ordained, but plainly against God and is only 'made up' by 'teachers' (Rabbis) as time when on and conflicts with the Priesthood of the Ark of the Covenant.


    It is Voodoo mystic majic worship to foreign gods.

    Just like those in Palistine who say they are jews and are not. They worship Secular Humanism and are Anti-Christ in all things that they do.
    Last edited by Brother Les; 09-21-2011 at 02:14 PM.
    Brother Les

  9. #19
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    It is Voodoo mystic majic worship to foreign gods.
    Wow! Nice choice of words there LES. I've never actually dug too deeply into the Hellenistic religion. What little I do know is that many of the writings from their sect have nearly no support from scripture; if I'm not mistaken.

    What information do you have on these Hellenistic Jews, other than the fact that they willfully tampered with the Old Testament Torah, and dooped St. Jerome into believing that the Septuagint could not be trusted, despite the fact that the Greek Septuagint was written by Hebrew speaking Jews.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  10. #20
    [QUOTE=CWH;34704]
    The fig tree and all the trees represent the nation Israel and all the other countries. Now, Israel gain its independence in 1948 and there are many countries that gained their independence during those times after WW2. This is the period in which people began to realize the fallability of the colonial powers and they fought to gain their independence....India, Pakistan, Indonesia etc. Please see the long list of nations that gain indepedence after WW2:

    Gracious God, show us the truth. Amen.
    If the mention of "the fig tree' and 'all the trees' PUSHING THEIR LEAVES' were intended to refer to nations of peoples in the Olivet discourse, then could they not also be fulfilled in that generation.

    Could this be?

    As the 60's AD progressed, both the Jewish factions within Judea and other nations under Rome began pushing back against Rome. For about 100 yrs there had been a time of 'Peace' called the Pax Romana. This 'peace' would be disrupted by the zealots of Judea and also the civil wars of other nations within the Roman empire in the late 60's AD.
    From the end of the Republican civil wars, beginning with the accession of Augustus in 27 BC, this era in Roman history lasted until 180 AD and the death of Marcus Aurelius......The empire, wracked with civil war for the last century of the Republic, and for years following the Pax Romana, was largely free of large scale power disputes. Only the year 69 AD, the so-called 'Year of the Four Emperors', following the fall of Nero and the Julio-Claudian line, interrupted nearly 200 years of civil order.
    These historical "pushing of the leaves" were prophecied by Jesus during a relative time of peace occurred simultaneously with the time for the ending of the age as would have been prophesied.

    Thus, if you insist and demand that 'the fig tree' represents Israel, then it would refer to it pushing its' leaves of the [then] still established tree. A 'rebirth' would be more likely allegorized as a sprouting from what appeared to be a dead stump, like the American Chestnut is experiencing.

    I don't know how one equates' pushing the leaves of an already established 'tree' with a politically manipulated recognized statehood and 're-birth' of a nation. If the 'fig tree' is intended to represent national Israel of the mosaic covenant, then that is and must also be the intention of Jesus when he declared that it would never bear fruit again. This would coincide with his statements of their house being left unto them as DESOLATE..[of God's Spirit]. But these facts are ignored by the dispensational Zionists.

    The context of Jesus' speech could also have simply been to refer that when they see all these things..... such as the armies circling Jerusalem, they would know that it was time to flee and that it's desolation was near.... JUST AS summer is signified by tree's pushing forth their new leaves. Because he includes "all the trees" in the one account, it is possible indeed that he inferred an expressing of the nations in that generations immediately before the destruction and as a sign of the nearness of God's presence and working.

    In the New covenant, individual people are referred to as 'trees' of righteousness...


    The rest of the OT passages you mentioned were also prophesied before or around the time of the Babylonian captivity; thus were prophesied before the regathering from Babylon and the latter days of the mosaic covenant nation and the fulfillment of the 'new covenant'. They would have had their fulfillment after the regathering to the land after the Babylonian captivity up until the latter end of the national entity [house] of the mosaic covenant as outlined in the book of Deut.

    The 'birth of a nation' in Is 66 would refer to the birth of the 'nation' of all peoples, languages, tongues under individualist new covenant law's of faith, grace and truth as prophecied in Dan 7 and fulfilled in the time of the Roman Empire and the first century.

    The groups of disbelieving and rejecting Judaism/zionism have occupied and established a 'kingdom' within judea at least 3 other times since the Roman desolation. Thus this claim that 1948 is the 're-birth' and return of Israel after 2000 yrs is a lie against the facts. But the futurists' also ignore or are unaware of those 're-births' also.

    If there hasn't been a thread specifically on what is possibly meant by the 'fig tree' and 'pushing their leaves'..... then there should be.

    Since Graham-Lotz has replied to Joe's you-tube post, perhaps he would invite her or one of their camp to interact on these items. Their views are possibly the continual passing down of others teachings without studying them for themselves.
    Last edited by EndtimesDeut32/70AD; 10-01-2011 at 08:20 PM.
    1Thess 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
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    If you are oppressed and enslaved by religious law, you may have a tendency to oppress, enslave and attempt to lord over others who are free.

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