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  1. #21
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    [QUOTE=EndtimesDeut32/70AD;34856]
    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post

    If the mention of "the fig tree' and 'all the trees' PUSHING THEIR LEAVES' were intended to refer to nations of peoples in the Olivet discourse, then could they not also be fulfilled in that generation.

    Could this be?

    As the 60's AD progressed, both the Jewish factions within Judea and other nations under Rome began pushing back against Rome. For about 100 yrs there had been a time of 'Peace' called the Pax Romana. This 'peace' would be disrupted by the zealots of Judea and also the civil wars of other nations within the Roman empire in the late 60's AD. These historical "pushing of the leaves" were prophecied by Jesus during a relative time of peace occurred simultaneously with the time for the ending of the age as would have been prophesied.

    Thus, if you insist and demand that 'the fig tree' represents Israel, then it would refer to it pushing its' leaves of the [then] still established tree. A 'rebirth' would be more likely allegorized as a sprouting from what appeared to be a dead stump, like the American Chestnut is experiencing.

    I don't know how one equates' pushing the leaves of an already established 'tree' with a politically manipulated recognized statehood and 're-birth' of a nation. If the 'fig tree' is intended to represent national Israel of the mosaic covenant, then that is and must also be the intention of Jesus when he declared that it would never bear fruit again. This would coincide with his statements of their house being left unto them as DESOLATE..[of God's Spirit]. But these statements are ignored by the dispensational Zionists.

    The context of Jesus' speach could also have simply been to refer that when they see all these things..... such as the armies circling Jerusalem, they would know that it was time to flee and that it's desolation was near.... JUST AS summer is signified by tree's pushing forth their new leaves. Because he includes "all the trees" in the one account, it is possible indeed that he inferred an expressing of the nations in that generations immediately before the destruction and as a sign of the nearness of God's presence and working.

    In the New covenant, individual people are referred to as 'trees' of righteousness...


    The rest of the OT passages you mentioned were also prophesied before or around the time of the Babylonian captivity; thus were prophesied before the regathering from Babylon and the latter days of the mosaic covenant nation and the fulfillment of the 'new covenant'. They would have had their fulfillment after the regathering to the land after the Babylonian captivity up until the latter end of the national entity [house] of the mosaic covenant as outlined in the book of Deut.

    The 'birth of a nation' in Is 66 would refer to the birth of the 'nation' of all peoples, languages, tongues under individualist new covenant law's of faith, grace and truth as prophecied in Dan 7 and fulfilled in the time of the Roman Empire and the first century.

    The groups of disbelieving and rejecting Judaism/zionism have occupied and established a 'kingdom' within judea at least 3 other times since the Roman desolation. Thus this claim that 1948 is the 're-birth' and return of Israel after 2000 yrs is a lie against the facts. But the futurists' also ignore or are unaware of those 're-births' also.

    If there hasn't been a thread specifically on what is possibly meant by the 'fig tree' and 'pushing their leaves'..... then there should be.

    Since Graham-Lotz has replied to Joe's you-tube post, perhaps he would invite her or one of their camp to interact on these items. Their views are possibly the continual passing down of others teachings without studying them for themselves.
    Great post bro. Unfortunately, you have to remember that we're dealing with a few Futurists who still divide the Church from Israel. Now in Henry's defense, he doesn't exactly do that; thus far, he doesn't seem to hold to the idea of a rebuilt secular Israel of the flesh. He interprets must of scripture figuratively, as we do. But our timing is different. It's Cheow and those like him, who hold to a rebuilt secular Israel which they claim happened in 1948. Unfortunately, they are not familiar with Israeli law from the Old Covenant standpoint. A Jew under the Laws of Moses required the Tribes to remain pure. Anyone caught marrying outside of their Tribal birth were to be considered as Gentiles, due to mixing of their races. This has been an ongoing problem since their demise in the first century. And it was Prophesied to happen, as I'm sure you know. Revelation pictures secular Israel as the huge Millstone being tossed into the sea of nations forever, and never to be found again. The Voice of the Bride and Bridegroom (originally the first wife of God, being Israel of the flesh) was taken away from them, never to be found again. The Kingdom, as Jesus said to them to their very face, was taken away from them, and given to another nation who would bear its fruit. This kingdom of course is the Church, and Jesus is the eternal High Priest. This is why secular Israel is not required anymore because we have the eternal city from above, the Israel of God, for all to worship in, which of course is not based on skin color or blood type, but faith and devotion to God through Christ Jesus.

    Lastly, they miss one very important fact that harms their allegiance to God. To call modern day secular Israel, God's chosen people, is borderline Blasphemy. If that were a nation of God, then you may as well say that God arbors a nation of homosexuals and sinners. God destroyed ancient Israel many times for being called His chosen nation, but were more like Prostitutes who kept contaminating themselves with foreign gods and sinful habits. That's why He destroyed them. The same applies to us of course, but that's an entirely different discussion; we're talking about Israel of the flesh.

    So, the following reasons is proof enough to disprove the 1948 theory:

    1. No Tribes exist, so they do not meet the Biblical definition of Israel
    2. They are a nation of Apostasy, and are anti-God. God would not consider this a blooming Fig Tree producing figs. A good tree does not produce bad fruit. Hence they are an entirely different tree
    3. Merely raising David's flag doesn't not mean you are an Israeli according to the Bible
    4. Jesus shows in Revelation that they, the Millstone, were tossed into the sea of nations, never to be found again.
    5. Like Jeremiah's Prophesy, they would lose the Voice of the Bride and Bridegroom forever.

    Now this doesn't mean that the inhabitants of modern day Israel cannot come to Christ Jesus. But until that happens, they are nothing more than sinners outside of the kingdom of Christ.

    Lastly, Daniels Prophesy shows that the kingdom of Christ was established after the death of the 4rth Beast, which we know to be the Roman Empire. Daniel does not show a 5th kingdom; he numerically mentions 4 only, and the 4rth was Rome. The Church is the huge stones that dashed to pieces the first four kingdoms, and since that time, has been the predominant kingdom ever to live on the face of this earth. That can only mean one thing; this spiritual Israel, which we call the Church, has a great king and High Priest who is not frail nor stricken with fault. He performs well as King, and will never let evil into the kingdom. False Churches may rise, but He as King, will destroy them.

    God bless.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  2. #22
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    [QUOTE=TheForgiven;34866]
    Quote Originally Posted by EndtimesDeut32/70AD View Post

    Great post bro. Unfortunately, you have to remember that we're dealing with a few Futurists who still divide the Church from Israel. Now in Henry's defense, he doesn't exactly do that; thus far, he doesn't seem to hold to the idea of a rebuilt secular Israel of the flesh. He interprets must of scripture figuratively, as we do. But our timing is different. It's Cheow and those like him, who hold to a rebuilt secular Israel which they claim happened in 1948. Unfortunately, they are not familiar with Israeli law from the Old Covenant standpoint. A Jew under the Laws of Moses required the Tribes to remain pure. Anyone caught marrying outside of their Tribal birth were to be considered as Gentiles, due to mixing of their races. This has been an ongoing problem since their demise in the first century. And it was Prophesied to happen, as I'm sure you know. Revelation pictures secular Israel as the huge Millstone being tossed into the sea of nations forever, and never to be found again. The Voice of the Bride and Bridegroom (originally the first wife of God, being Israel of the flesh) was taken away from them, never to be found again. The Kingdom, as Jesus said to them to their very face, was taken away from them, and given to another nation who would bear its fruit. This kingdom of course is the Church, and Jesus is the eternal High Priest. This is why secular Israel is not required anymore because we have the eternal city from above, the Israel of God, for all to worship in, which of course is not based on skin color or blood type, but faith and devotion to God through Christ Jesus.

    Lastly, they miss one very important fact that harms their allegiance to God. To call modern day secular Israel, God's chosen people, is borderline Blasphemy. If that were a nation of God, then you may as well say that God arbors a nation of homosexuals and sinners. God destroyed ancient Israel many times for being called His chosen nation, but were more like Prostitutes who kept contaminating themselves with foreign gods and sinful habits. That's why He destroyed them. The same applies to us of course, but that's an entirely different discussion; we're talking about Israel of the flesh.

    So, the following reasons is proof enough to disprove the 1948 theory:

    1. No Tribes exist, so they do not meet the Biblical definition of Israel
    2. They are a nation of Apostasy, and are anti-God. God would not consider this a blooming Fig Tree producing figs. A good tree does not produce bad fruit. Hence they are an entirely different tree
    3. Merely raising David's flag doesn't not mean you are an Israeli according to the Bible
    4. Jesus shows in Revelation that they, the Millstone, were tossed into the sea of nations, never to be found again.
    5. Like Jeremiah's Prophesy, they would lose the Voice of the Bride and Bridegroom forever.

    Now this doesn't mean that the inhabitants of modern day Israel cannot come to Christ Jesus. But until that happens, they are nothing more than sinners outside of the kingdom of Christ.

    Lastly, Daniels Prophesy shows that the kingdom of Christ was established after the death of the 4rth Beast, which we know to be the Roman Empire. Daniel does not show a 5th kingdom; he numerically mentions 4 only, and the 4rth was Rome. The Church is the huge stones that dashed to pieces the first four kingdoms, and since that time, has been the predominant kingdom ever to live on the face of this earth. That can only mean one thing; this spiritual Israel, which we call the Church, has a great king and High Priest who is not frail nor stricken with fault. He performs well as King, and will never let evil into the kingdom. False Churches may rise, but He as King, will destroy them.

    God bless.

    Joe
    That quote is not by me, Fix it.

    I have discuss this topic with RAM and Rose about the fig tree more than a year ago, please see:

    http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...tree#post17365

    To recap what was discussed:

    Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh. ye, when ye shall see all these things know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    Let's look at the BIble definitions:
    - fig trees means Jewish nation (fig = Jews, tree = nation)
    -budding and blossoming i.e. "branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves".
    -Budding seems to mean growth or development in stature, power, status
    -Blossoming seems to mean progressing or maturing
    -Blossomed means matured
    -Branch seems to mean days
    -leaves nourished the tree with nutrition that enables it to grow thus means the essentials for growth of the nations i.e. economy, industries, nation buildings. Leaves are for healing of nations (Revelation)= ?nation building.
    -summer means June to August in the northern hemisphere

    Genesis 40:9 So the chief cupbearer told Joseph his dream. He said to him, "In my dream I saw a vine in front of me, 10 and on the vine were three branches. As soon as it budded, it blossomed, and its clusters ripened into grapes. 11 Pharaoh's cup was in my hand, and I took the grapes, squeezed them into Pharaoh's cup and put the cup in his hand."
    *12 "This is what it means," Joseph said to him. "The three branches are three days. 13 Within three days Pharaoh will lift up your head and restore you to your position, and you will put Pharaoh's cup in his hand, just as you used to do when you were his cupbearer. 14 But when all goes well with you, remember me and show me kindness; mention me to Pharaoh and get me out of this prison. 15 For I was forcibly carried off from the land of the Hebrews, and even here I have done nothing to deserve being put in a dungeon."

    Numbers 17:*1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Speak to the Israelites and get twelve staffs from them, one from the leader of each of their ancestral tribes. Write the name of each man on his staff. 3 On the staff of Levi write Aaron's name, for there must be one staff for the head of each ancestral tribe. 4 Place them in the Tent of Meeting in front of the Testimony, where I meet with you. 5 The staff belonging to the man I choose will sprout, and I will rid myself of this constant grumbling against you by the Israelites."......8 The next day Moses entered the Tent of the Testimony and saw that Aaron's staff, which represented the house of Levi, had not only sprouted but had budded, blossomed and produced almonds. 9 Then Moses brought out all the staffs from the LORD's presence to all the Israelites. They looked at them, and each man took his own staff.

    Isaiah 27:6 In days to come Jacob will take root, Israel will bud and blossom and fill all the world with fruit.


    Genesis 1:30
    And to all the beasts of the earth and all the birds in the sky and all the creatures that move along the ground—everything that has the breath of life in it—I give every green plant for food.”


    Jeremiah 17:8
    They will be like a tree planted by the water that sends out its roots by the stream. It does not fear when heat comes; its leaves are always green. It has no worries in a year of drought and never fails to bear fruit.”


    Ezekiel 47:12
    Fruit trees of all kinds will grow on both banks of the river. Their leaves will not wither, nor will their fruit fail. Every month they will bear fruit, because the water from the sanctuary flows to them. Their fruit will serve for food and their leaves for healing.


    Revelation 22:2
    down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations.


    So in Matthew 24 :32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; (means learn of Israel). When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, (When the days that Israel is budding and blossoming in growth of status economy, industries, nationhood etc.)ye know that summer is nigh (everyone will know that the harvest of the elect is near. Note that Israel's independence day is in May which is near summertime). 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things (the signs that Israel is budding and blossoming i.e. growing as a nation), know that it is near, even at the doors (know that the end of creation is near). 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation (those born during Israel's independence) shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    Looking at Luke 21:29 He told them this parable: “Look at the fig tree and all the trees. (look at Israel and all the nations fighting for their independence at that time)30 When they sprout leaves, (when they start their nation buildings) you can see for yourselves and know that summer is near (maturity of human and nation development is near). 31 Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near.


    May God blessed us with His knowledge. Amen.
    Last edited by CWH; 10-02-2011 at 07:57 AM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    Great post bro. Unfortunately, you have to remember that we're dealing with a few Futurists who still divide the Church from Israel.
    Joe
    Yes, there is a difference between national Israel of the mosaic covenant and Jacob/Israel the individual and fore-type of the individualized new covenant children of God of the everlasting covenant of mercy.

    Here's an example that CHW used to support his stance, but which refers to the new covenant children [sons] of God.

    Isaiah 27:6 In days to come Jacob will take root, Israel [the new covenant man] will bud and blossom and fill all the world with fruit.

    Likewise; I believe this is what the apostles had in mind when they asked Jesus if he would now restore the kingdom to Israel and to individuals like Israel who were spiritually reborn in their humanity, not indoctrinated into a Babylonian ritualistic religion. Israel, the individual was not a participant of the mosaic covenant nation of Israel but was a wandering Syrian. [Deut 5:1-3] And in Gen 49 it was prophesied that his physical genetic lineage and usage of that physical descendancy by God would have latter days in the time of the coming of Shiloh.

    The apostles knew that the national entity of mosaic covenant Israel was promised to have a latter end and that it's ways would become as a babylonian religion. And they knew that the testimony of the name of the Creator was in the hands of evil and Viperous men... high Priests.. etc.. Jesus' answer was that it was not for the apostles [except John] to know and experience [all] the times and seasons of the confirmation of the new covenant principles. [jacob, Israel] But they all would recieve power at Pentecost. John, however, would remain till he came.
    Last edited by EndtimesDeut32/70AD; 10-02-2011 at 08:52 PM.
    1Thess 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    If you are oppressed and enslaved by religious law, you may have a tendency to oppress, enslave and attempt to lord over others who are free.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    I have discuss this topic with RAM and Rose about the fig tree more than a year ago, please see:
    http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...tree#post17365

    To recap what was discussed:

    Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh. ye, when ye shall see all these things know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    Let's look at the BIble definitions:
    - fig trees means Jewish nation (fig = Jews, tree = nation)
    -budding and blossoming i.e. "branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves".
    -Budding seems to mean growth or development in stature, power, status
    -Blossoming seems to mean progressing or maturing
    -Blossomed means matured
    -Branch seems to mean days
    -leaves nourished the tree with nutrition that enables it to grow thus means the essentials for growth of the nations i.e. economy, industries, nation buildings. Leaves are for healing of nations (Revelation)= ?nation building.
    -summer means June to August in the northern hemisphere
    In your quote of Matt 24 above, you missed the So likewise.
    In his address to the people who asked the question about the destruction of the temple and his coming to remove them and end the mosaic covenant age; how would they 'see' all those things that were being mentioned if they were intended to mean something 2000 yrs in the future.

    32Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

    33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

    34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
    It seems that the 'so likewise' in vs 33 above would indicate the simple observation that when those people to whom he was speaking would be see the signs [taken up to courts and killed, etc etc] that the working of God; the end of the mosaic conditional national covenant and the growth of the church [the kingdom and power of God] was near.

    The 'healing of the nations' and the people therein is just as much through the ending of God's administration through the race of Jews [Gen 49] and the end of the conditional, corporal national covenant of mosiac law as it is through so called 'national Independence'. In Deut 32 and in Isaiah [65 I think] the nations are to come and rejoice with his [God's] people over the ending of the mosiac covenant nation and the oppression of it's religious and enslaving leaders. Thus the healing of the people in the nations is not through the re-establishment of national mosaic covenant entity and law and their preeminence but was by the removal of it in 70 Ad.

    National independence[s] and revolts have been occurring for hundreds and thousands of years.

    The two observations below deserve to be repeated.

    If the 'fig tree' is intended to represent national Israel of the mosaic covenant, then that is and must also be the intention of Jesus when he declared that it would never bear fruit again. This would coincide with his statements that their house being left unto them DESOLATE. But these statements are ignored by the dispensational Zionists.

    The groups of Judaism have occupied and established a 'kingdom' within Judea at least 3 other times since the Roman desolation. Thus this claim that 1948 is the 're-birth' and return of Israel after 2000 yrs is a lie against the facts. But the futurists' also ignore or are unaware of those 're-births' and 'pushing of leaves' also.

    I think CHW that we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't see a resolution to our differences. I furthermore don't' see where the verses you quoted established "DEFINITIONS" as you supposed above.

    The disciples asked and Jesus answered questions about the end of the mosaic covenant age and the removal of the temple and the atmosphere of those laws. To impose mosaic covenant Israel is a continued or present administration of God implies that the new [everlasting, individual] covenant [of the fulfilled seed promised to Eve] is not established in the power and dominion of God. This goes against the purposes, plan, will and good intent of the laws of life of the Creator and his indwelling spirit.

    Yes, God is at work; He is at work establishing friendships with and adopting individuals like Jacob and developing his kingdom and freedom within them and those associated with that kingdom.

    EDIT ADDED:
    Thanks for the link to the previous discussion. It may save repeated discusssion. I noticed a foundational difference of your beliefs with what is written.

    You stated.
    I am not trying to be disrespectful of preterist's belief. But based on my belief, Jesus was asked about 3 things.... When will the Temple be destroyed? What is the sign of His coming and When will be the end of creation.
    I'm sure the others pointed out to you that they were not asking about the end of creation; [ktisis] nor the end of the Roman empire [oikomene]; nor the end of the world [kosmos;] but of the end of the age [aeon]. This in association with their questions about the destruction of the temple could only have them asking about the end of mosaic covenant age, and that had been prophesied right in the giving of the covenant by Moses in the book of Deuteronomy.

    I'm sure your 'belief' and opinion that there is to be a end of Creation and remaking of the world is held by many ; but that is not what the disciples were asking and there are other scriptures which teach the perpetuation and goodness of the Creation. The question of the disciples is openly shown to refer to the end of the mosaic covenant age [not the world] by the use of the world AEON ['age'] and not Creation [ktisis];

    Trenches lexicon has a good article on the mistranslation of AEON as 'world" by the KJV translators. They state: it must be admitted that we are losers by the course which we have adopted. [to translate aeon as 'world']
    Last edited by EndtimesDeut32/70AD; 10-02-2011 at 07:20 PM.
    1Thess 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    If you are oppressed and enslaved by religious law, you may have a tendency to oppress, enslave and attempt to lord over others who are free.

  5. #25
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    I am not trying to be disrespectful of preterist's belief. But based on my belief, Jesus was asked about 3 things.... When will the Temple be destroyed? What is the sign of His coming and When will be the end of creation.
    I'm sure the others pointed out to you that they were not asking about the end of creation; [ktisis] nor the end of the Roman empire [oikomene]; nor the end of the world [kosmos;] but of the end of the age [aeon]. This in association with their questions about the destruction of the temple could only have them asking about the end of mosaic covenant age, and that had been prophesied right in the giving of the covenant by Moses in the book of Deuteronomy.
    Yes bro; we have informed him of his error, but as usual, one ear and out the other. He's stuck on the "end of the world" scenario, even though Matthew 24 doesn't even suggest that. The only bible version that reads "end of the world" is the 1611 King James Bible, which has already been proven to be the worlds worst translation into English. Every other English Bible, to include the New King James Version, reads, "end of the age". That age, of course, came to an end when the temple was destroyed.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  6. #26
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    There is something which continually confuses me.....reference is made to the "end of the mosaic age". And, the supposed end to this age is to have occurred in 70 AD when the temple was destroyed.

    This is often cited as a pivotal event.......the end of one age, and the beginning of another.

    I believe this distinction causes alot of confusion.....at least for me.

    There is no phrase in the scriptures that marks the "end of the mosiac age". There is, however, reference to the "the times of the Gentiles", and, the "diminishing of Israel" (Romans 11:12).

    It seems to me that the "times of the Gentiles" corresponds to the "dimisnishing of Israel" which had already taken place when Paul wrote the letter to the Romans occurring before the Temple destruction of 70 AD.

    While Israel is set aside, the times of the Gentiles runs its course......which is the time period that is characteristic of the current time. Israel's "fulness" will be the pivotal event that will mark the end of the times of the Gentiles.

    Joel
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38,39

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    There is something which continually confuses me.....reference is made to the "end of the mosaic age". And, the supposed end to this age is to have occurred in 70 AD when the temple was destroyed.

    This is often cited as a pivotal event.......the end of one age, and the beginning of another.

    I believe this distinction causes alot of confusion.....at least for me.

    There is no phrase in the scriptures that marks the "end of the mosiac age". There is, however, reference to the "the times of the Gentiles", and, the "diminishing of Israel" (Romans 11:12).

    It seems to me that the "times of the Gentiles" corresponds to the "dimisnishing of Israel" which had already taken place when Paul wrote the letter to the Romans occurring before the Temple destruction of 70 AD.

    While Israel is set aside, the times of the Gentiles runs its course......which is the time period that is characteristic of the current time. Israel's "fulness" will be the pivotal event that will mark the end of the times of the Gentiles.

    Joel
    Fully agree with you, joel. We are living in the times of the Gentile and the Christian age. When one age ends another will begin. The pre-Jesus age ends and the post Jesus age began. Was it AD 70?....hmmmm... maybe but I wonder where in the scripture said that?

    God's Grace and Blessings to you.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    There is something which continually confuses me.....reference is made to the "end of the mosaic age". And, the supposed end to this age is to have occurred in 70 AD when the temple was destroyed.

    This is often cited as a pivotal event.......the end of one age, and the beginning of another.

    I believe this distinction causes alot of confusion.....at least for me.

    There is no phrase in the scriptures that marks the "end of the mosiac age". There is, however, reference to the "the times of the Gentiles", and, the "diminishing of Israel" (Romans 11:12).

    It seems to me that the "times of the Gentiles" corresponds to the "dimisnishing of Israel" which had already taken place when Paul wrote the letter to the Romans occurring before the Temple destruction of 70 AD.

    While Israel is set aside, the times of the Gentiles runs its course......which is the time period that is characteristic of the current time. Israel's "fulness" will be the pivotal event that will mark the end of the times of the Gentiles.

    Joel
    The phrase you are looking for is found many times in the Bible. It is called "the age" in Matt 24:3
    Matthew 24:3 And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
    Note the context. It connects the "end of the age" with the destruction of the Temple which happened in 70 AD. Pretty straightforward stuff. And it is confirmed by many other verses. For example, it is called the "consummation of the ages" in Hebrews 9:26:
    Hebrews 9:26 Otherwise, He would have needed to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now once at the consummation of the ages.
    What "age(s)" are those and similar verses talking about? Answer that, and you will have your answer. It is all so simple and clear. I can't understand the continued confusion. John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecies concerning the messenger who would prepare the way of the Lord and who would warn the world of the day of judgment that would soon follow (Malachi 3 & 4). This was the primary argument put forth by the first Christians to prove that Jesus was the Messiah. But now Christians ignore, or even totally deny, the fulfillment of those prophecies in the first century and invent a "second coming of Elijah" to precede the imagined "second coming of Christ" when a re-vived Roman empire will re-desolate a re-built Temple. Such speculations falsify the fundamental claims of Christianity and confirm the skeptic argument that Christ was a failed doomsday prophet who erroneously predicted the end of the world in the first century.

    The way modern Christians play around with the Bible steals all it's power, and makes me wonder if the original Christians behaved the same way. Think about it! If the original Christians who wrote the NT were anything like normal humans who make up shit all the time (like the 12 witnesses who claimed to see Joe Smith's golden tablets) then why should we trust anything they wrote? If modern Christians are willing to twist words that are written in "Holy Scripture" to fit their competing doctrines, how much more freedom did the original Christians have when they were writing the stuff??? Yowsers ... I think I'm beginning to understand the cogency of the skeptical position. Why should anyone believe the Bible? But that's the topic of the other thread ... if folks want to follow up on that question I guess they should answer there.

    I'm glad I don't have to worry about this any more.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    I am not trying to be disrespectful of preterist's belief. But based on my belief, Jesus was asked about 3 things.... When will the Temple be destroyed? What is the sign of His coming and When will be the end of creation.
    I'm sure the others pointed out to you that they were not asking about the end of creation; [ktisis] nor the end of the Roman empire [oikomene]; nor the end of the world [kosmos;] but of the end of the age [aeon]. This in association with their questions about the destruction of the temple could only have them asking about the end of mosaic covenant age, and that had been prophesied right in the giving of the covenant by Moses in the book of Deuteronomy.
    Yes bro; we have informed him of his error, but as usual, one ear and out the other. He's stuck on the "end of the world" scenario, even though Matthew 24 doesn't even suggest that. The only bible version that reads "end of the world" is the 1611 King James Bible, which has already been proven to be the worlds worst translation into English. Every other English Bible, to include the New King James Version, reads, "end of the age". That age, of course, came to an end when the temple was destroyed.

    Joe
    Yep ... that's correct Joe. But I would add that the word "kosmos" does not necessarily refer to the globe of planet earth either. They simply did not have that concept in the first century Palestine. That's why Paul was able to say that the Gospel had been preached "in all the world [kosmos]" back in the first century. He wasn't talking about Alaska or Zimbabwe. Indeed, every word translated as "world" in the KJV has a local meaning centered on Jerusalem in the Bible. This has been discussed over and over and over again. Some people just refuse to believe what the Bible states - especially those who claim to believe it the most! The irony never ceases to amaze me. Here is a summary I wrote in another thread called Is the World really the World?:

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by HaShaliach
    Does the word "world" mean the whole earth, or does it refer to the known lands at the time the bible was written, the lands surrounding the Mediterranean sea?
    Hi HaShaliach,

    We've gone over and over this one. Here is a good summary of the facts as presented in Scripture concerning the meaning of all forms of "world" which shows the Gospel was preached in all the world (from Post #15 in the thread called A Witness to ALL NATIONS (pas ethnos)):


    1. Prophecy: Matthew 24:14 – And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world [oikumene] for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
      Fulfillment:
      Romans 10:15-18 – And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world [oikumene].
    2. Prophecy: Mark 16:15 – And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world [kosmos], and preach the gospel to every creature.
      Fulfillment:
      Colossians 1:5-6 – For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; 6 Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world [kosmos]; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:
    3. Prophecy: Mark 16:15 – And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature [ktisis].
      Fulfillment:
      Colossians 1:23 – If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature [ktisis] which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
    4. Prophecies: Matthew 28:19 – Go ye therefore, and teach all nations [ethnos], baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Mark 13:10 – And the gospel must first be published among all nations [ethnos].
      Fulfillment:
      Romans 16:25-26 – Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, 26 But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations [ethnos] for the obedience of faith:
    5. Prophecy: Acts 1:8 – But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth [ge].
      Fulfillment:
      Romans 10:15-18 – And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? 17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth [ge], and their words unto the ends of the world.
    6. Prophecy: Isaiah 52:14-15 – As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: 15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see; and that which they had not heard shall they consider.
      Fulfillment:
      Romans 15:19-21 – Through mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God; so that from Jerusalem, and round about unto Illyricum, I have fully preached the gospel of Christ. 20 Yea, so have I strived to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build upon another man’s foundation: 21 But as it is written, To whom he was not spoken of, they shall see: and they that have not heard shall understand.

    The implications are clear. Not one of these passages suggests the "world" refers to the globe of planet earth.

    Richard
    If that doesn't settle it, nothing will.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  10. #30
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    Jun 2007
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    Richard,

    My objection focuses on........the offense of Israel.....and the consequential results as spoken of by Paul in Romans 11. The destruction of the temple was still in the future when Paul wrote his letter. He was speaking of what had already occurred and the results.

    The offense of Israel caused a major change between Israel and the system of this world......and.....he is speaking of a future event of them being...."filled" which will result in yet another change.

    Joel
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38,39

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