Can You Be Righteous?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I am inclined to be as succinct as possible in this matter.......we are "unjust" in spite of the just things we may do.

Realizing our condition, we must also realize that there is nothing we can do to change it.

Also, we must realize that God is just, and that He makes the unjust one just.

Once this is a settled conviction, it is appropriate to seek the "how" of God making just.

Joel

I do not believe that all people are "unjust." I am not doing anything "unjust" right now, and I have no prior "unjust" actions that I have not corrected as far as I know. How then can I be judged as unjust? What exactly do you mean when you say that everyone is unjust? Please spell it out precisely.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I am inclined to be as succinct as possible in this matter.......we are "unjust" in spite of the just things we may do.

Realizing our condition, we must also realize that there is nothing we can do to change it.

Also, we must realize that God is just, and that He makes the unjust one just.

Once this is a settled conviction, it is appropriate to seek the "how" of God making just.

Joel

I'm totally confused now. What do you mean when you say that "God is just?" If the word "just" has no definition, then how is it different than saying "God is smickdoofledorf!"

What exactly does "just" mean in the sentence "God is just."?

[joel]

What exactly does "just" mean in the sentence "God is just."?

(without going into a lengthly debate on the definition of "good" and "evil") Everything God does, either good or evil, is right. Nothing God does is wrong. It is all right.

Everything God does, either good or evil, produces good.

That is how I see that God is just.

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

(without going into a lengthly debate on the definition of "good" and "evil") Everything God does, either good or evil, is right. Nothing God does is wrong. It is all right.

Everything God does, either good or evil, produces good.

That is how I see that God is just.

Joel

I'm sorry Joel, but that kind of language is semantically empty. If the words "right" and "good" have no meaning except in the sentence "All that God does is good and right" then that sentence gives me no information about God, good, or right. It would be like saying that "Everything I do is snrastnistic." Can you determine the meaning of the word "snrastnistic" from that sentence? Nope. You need to define the adjective or the adjective can't give any information about me because you don't know what it means.

When a person says that "All God does is right" they mean that there is a real meaning to the word "right" and that God's actions "match up" to it. If there is no meaning to "right" then it is meaningless to say that God's actions are "right" because no one has any idea what "right" means.

Do you really have no idea what right and wrong mean?

[joel]

After all the words have gushed forth like a torrent and have overwhelmed my pea brain mind, I have discovered one thing..........I know almost nothing.

Right, wrong, good, evil...........whatever.

the little I know is.........I know Jesus and that is enough for me. All of God's wisdom, and knowledge is in Him. If I know Him, I know God, the Father.

Sorry......that may be too simple, and not explanation sufficient enough for a wise one such as you......as the commercial goes.... to me, it is priceless.

Joel

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

Good morning ETD,
Anything a person does is an "act." I can think a thought, and it is an "act" of my mind. I can choose to believe the Bible despite the problems it has. That is an act of my mind. I can choose to disbelieve it, and that too is an act. If one is right and the other wrong, then the "act" of my belief When Abraham believed God, it was an "act" of his soul. If not, the he did not >>DO<< it! It was this action of believing God that God declared to be "righteous."

But there are different kinds of "acts." Paul was concerned with "works of the law" as contrasted with "works of faith." And you know that the Bible speaks of faith as a work since you quoted Christ's statement that the "work of God" is to believe on the son. It seems there is a lot of confusion around the meaning of the word "work" in the Bible.

I view some your interpretations and understandings as sometimes erroneous and then you being critical of those erroneous understandings. I see you more and more extracting and literalizing words from the intended meaning of the context, forming ideas and concepts of those words and then criticizing the concepts. Your not doing inductive study of the greater portion first; or perhaps not with the aid of the Good HS.

Secondly, Paul or the apostles are the interpreters of the truths that were already in the OT and now made clear through God's coming. The doctrine of justification by faith can't be attributed to Paul as the dispensationalist would present it. Paul is an interpreter and explainer of the doctines. It is the doctrine of the Creator.

For example. In Rom 3-5 I dont' know where Paul contrasts works of the deeds of the law with "WORKS" of faith. The work's is usually brought into the discussion by peoples extracting verses from James. But even in James, when you study what he is saying, he is calling "works" what is a response of faith.

A believer and knower of God's love for himself would do acts of love in a natural response to and guidance from that belief and security.

I can choose to believe the Bible despite the problems it has.

I believe the better concept would be to believe in the character attributes of the Goodness and Holiness of Creator God who as part of that Character and love would publish a written record of the progressive revelation of his nature, will, attributes, power and love as well as his desire to fellowship with and bless humanity on both an individual and associated level.

It was this action of believing God that God declared to be "righteous."

I think the wording is that the action of his mind in believing God was accounted to him as righteousness. It equaled a continual status of righteousness. It was a status of Abrahams standing. He had 'crossed over' from death to life.

The word "righteous" is DEFINED as "a person or action that is morally right." This is the definition used in the Bible (1 John 3:7) as well as all "secular" dictionaries.

Here above is a perfect example of trying to codify verses of Scripture into definition apart from the greater context. You refer to 1John 3:7 as a definition of righteous. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
But in the greater context John is in unison with Paul in that the Righteousness of ones life with respect to access to God is due first to ones faith. You miss verses like:Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his [God's] seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. Thus the doing righteousness [spirit works] must come from a status of righteousness which conditions and parameters God establishes. And you would miss the context of first John 3:24...... And he that keepeth his commandments [of Love] dwelleth in him, and he [Jesus] in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us. This goes back to John 14-16 and abiding in the Spirit.

And others;
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him............. Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. "Sin" is removed due to the cancellation of the law of sin/death...to those who believe and receive His Love and Person through faith. Rom 8:2.

In the context, John is encouraging them to put some actions on their Love just as God put actions on his love through His manifestation. Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

That said, I think I can see the point you are trying to make. It seems that you want to define the word "righteous" as anything "approved by God." Thus a sinner who believes in Christ is "approved by God" and so declared to be "righteous." But isn't that arbitrary?

Righteous-ness is a status of ones standing in relationship with the living God not through the eyes and judgment of ones peers. And the rules for that righteousness and standing are declared by the creator of life, it is not arbitrary to the lawmaker and life-maker. It is the standard.

Lets make a quick and simplified analogy of a man [engineer] who designed a spaceship with all the love and intelligence that he could muster. It is designed to function well and fly freely in accordance with the desires of the maker as long as some rules are met. The first rule is to understand that this is a designed peice of equipment; not a haphazard collection of atoms falling out of the air. In such understanding and faith; the machine WILL work. If you think that the machine is built by the haphazard collection of molecules falling out of the air, you may not become an astronaut as you will not be able to operate the craft appropriately or respect its laws inherent with it designer. You will think that you will come to understand the operations of the craft better than it's builder and make and interpret your own rules for it's govornance.

What does "believing in God" have to do with the normal meaning of righteousness? There are plenty of people who "believe in God" but act unrighteously, so we are back to the oxymoron of "unrighteous righteousness."

That is partly answered in the intended meaning of 1 John 2 and 3. Belief in God's love through Christ should result in reciprocating actions of love. We 'love' [in action and deed] because he first loved us.

Acts that may be considered 'righteous' by peers do not equate being declared 'Righteous' by God. One's standing of being declared righteous and free as determined and established by God as coming through faith and the receiving of the Spirit, generates "righteous" acts.

The fact that it causes a lot of confusion is evident from the fact that Paul had to fend off criticisms such as grace giving us a license to sin (Romans 6:1).

If one reads Pauls teaching without the indwelling presence and freedom of the Spirit of Christ, one could come away with those opinions. This is where the accusation of reading, misunderstanding and misinterpreting someone else's letter comes in. Paul addresses 'bretheren' in the beginning of the book. Paul is writing edification, explanation and support of what their spirits already bore witness to. He is not writing anything contrary to the teaching and person of Christ and his indwelling and free-ing Spirit which they received.

Paul's teachings are subordinate and explanatory to Christs and the message of the Gospel [good news] of the Creator of Life. He is an explainer, not writing New "doctrine" for the dispensationalists idea of the church age. If anything has marred the life of an eternal relationship with the Creator, the body of Christ, society, humanity and the world, it is this dispensational idea that the church is a Pauline dispensation; that it is a temporary entity...thus religion; and that the jews frustrated the plan and kingdom of God by killing Christ.

Dan 9:24 and the ushering in of 'everlasting righteousness' comes into play here. But the 'everlasting righteousness' is individually applied.

I clipped the rest of your response for lack of time and partly due to run on ideas. Maybe get to them another time.

I do agree that some aspects of the "Religion" of Christianity are in error. Many of them are related to the dispensational/futurist influence. And I believe that the Romans forced a pre-mature [thus some erroneous] codification of the writings of the apostles into interpretations, statements, and doctrine BY THE ECF"S that was fuel that formed and spawned some aspects of a 'new' "religion" of Christianity and even the dispensational camp.

True Christianity is not so much as a religion as it is 'The Way" to individual [now unbreakable] friendship and fellowship with the Creator God and his good design. [The new garden] The fruit of which are Gal 5;22; loving God and neighbor and such things as taking care of orphans and widows in time of need.

The 'new' covenant is not a new conditional "religion" but a fulfillment of the seed promised to Eve to reverse and cancel the law of individual sin/death-separation from creator/lover God. Where the Spirit of the lord is; there is FREEDOM. It is "NEW" only in it's contrast with the mosaic covenant and it's principle elemental foundations were declared to be NOT LIKE the mosaic covenant but opposite from them. It is the everlasting covenant of individual love and Mercy [grace, adoption and blessing] promised from the Giver and Maker of Life himself.

In many 'christian' circles, one's 'approval' and 'righteousness' is attributed [by their peers] to assenting to all the right 'doctrines' rather than believing in, and receiving the love and Spirit of the Right Person; the Creator and lawmaker himself. The Spirit then guides to the right teachings. This was the method of the people of Israel, who as mentioned in Rom 10 sought righteousness by deeds of the law or by knowledge; such as having the right interpretations, doctrine and religious practice.

This could get run-on and is already getting repetitive and tedious. Though I consider some interaction on the BB's as an 'act of love'...forgive if I don't continue it or get back right away. With many words comes the fatigue of the hearers.

I'm actually in agreement with Joel in these concepts.

[heb13-13]

I believe righteousness is the basic quality of God’s character and His character is to be formed in man.

For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright. Psalm 11:7

The formation of His righteousness does not come instantaneously. For this reason Jesus said, 'But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.' Matt 6:33

Those of the kingdom should experience a daily 'hunger and thirst for righteousness', (Matt 5:6).

The satisfying of this hunger comes as we receive this righteousness into our lives. Righteousness must become our life.
If we seek His kingdom we must seek His righteousness,for the foundation of God’s kingdom is righteousness.

I see the extension of God’s character through His authority. 'For the kingdom of God is righteousness… (Romans 14:17) You could say the scope of His righteousness is the scope of His authority. Or one could also say His authority establishes His righteousness. Righteousness involves the kingdom of God.

What is this righteousness that man is to seek? What is this righteousness that is the foundation of His kingdom and the basic nature of God? I see in the Scriptures that there are 3 revelations of righteousness. The first is found in creation, the second in the formation of a nation and the third in Jesus Christ the Son of God. In each of these a distinctive aspect of God’s righteousness is revealed.

First, let’s look at creation. God brought the world forth on a principle that established righteousness in everything He made. An order was established in the beginning, that has maintained life in exactly the same form as when created. God’s nature was revealed by what He made.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Rom 1:20

God brought forth everything on a principle of separation establishing an order in creation that preserved all He made. Separation is the first principle of righteousness. On the first day of creation God brought forth the light that separated darkness from darkness and it was the first day. On the second day, God separated the waters from the waters and the earth appeared. And on each succeeding day in all that He made, life was separated from life in all its forms. This is righteousness coming through order.

There is order in righteousness that maintains life. Because God is righteous, the sun comes up every morning, the earth maintains its orbit around the sun, the clouds water the earth and the earth blossoms. Because God is righteous, there are no monsters, no crossing over of life forms. Kind produces kind and all is good, just as it was when created. God set everything in its order, so life was established. This is righteousness.

Mixture is contrary to righteousness. In all creation mixture was not found except for a tree called 'the tree of knowledge of good and evil,' which became the place of man’s fall. Evil comes through mixture.Here one finds the first principle of evil. The incorporation of evil is sin. It is the nature of sin to break down order and cause disintegration. All kinds of disorder come until all the life support systems of one’s life are destroyed. The working of evil is always death.

It is mixture of good and evil that destroys righteousness. Evil can look good, but when evil comes in, it destroys all that righteousness has made. How many of God’s people are feeding upon mixture? The tree could be a book, a TV, a movie, a magazine, a philosophy or a relationship. The world today is full of mixture. It will excite the flesh but result in death for the soul.

Through mixture one loses the discernment of evil. In looking upon evil, one comes to accept evil; to experience evil, one loses the discernment of evil; and when discernment of evil is lost, evil has overcome. Not following the first principle of righteousness allows evil to enter. A prophet pronounced judgment upon a nation because they had lost discernment.
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isa 5:20

God’s people must separate themselves from evil and draw the line between the clean and the unclean, between the holy and the profane. Fathers must teach their children to draw this line. The mixture of evil must be eliminated from the home and from the church. How much one allows the principle of separation to work in his life will determine how much God’s righteousness will work in his life.

Righteousness brings order and peace.

And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. And my people shall dwell in a peaceable habitation, and in sure dwellings, and in quiet resting places;
Isa 32:17-18

Here is God’s call to righteousness.

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? 2Co 6:14

And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 2Co 6:16

Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 2Co 6:17

And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty. 2Co 6:18

Much peace to us all,
Rick

[joel]

Rick, that was priceless. Joel

[heb13-13]

Thank you, Joel.

This question of righteousness and what it is, is a very good question. This is a good thread and needs to be discussed, because I think the church has given up on personal righteousness. Does God require men to be righteous or is it something that is impossible so we just say I am righteous because of Jesus Christ? We can't live half truths.

So, if Christ came to make men righteous, how does one experience righteousness as a work of the Spirit? Is this supposed to be an experiential reality in our lives or not?

Is there such a thing as the transformation of righteousness in a believer?

I believe there is because without righteousness the glory of God will not abide among men. It is not enough to be "declared righteous" and to say we are "justified", there must be real fruit. There must be some manifestation of the work of righteousness by the Spirit in a person. Otherwise, there is no reality of Christ in our lives and we just continue down the "happy" road of deception.

As the Church today is praying for revival the words of the prophet still speak with clear direction.

Isa 40:3 The voice of him that crieth in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the LORD, make straight in the desert a highway for our God

Isa 40:4 Every valley shall be exalted, and every mountain and hill shall be made low: and the crooked shall be made straight, and the rough places plain:

Isa 40:5 And the glory of the LORD shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

True believing leads to the inworking (sanctification) and the outworking of our faith (true works authored by the Holy Spirit).

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. John 15:14

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:14

Have a great day,
Rick

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hey there Mike,

I hope you don't get offended by my response. I very much appreciate your presence in our forum. But I think your ideas are quite fallacious, and I think it is best for me to just speak plainly. I could be wrong and welcome any correction you (or others) might want to offer.

First, let’s look at creation. God brought the world forth on a principle that established righteousness in everything He made. An order was established in the beginning, that has maintained life in exactly the same form as when created. God’s nature was revealed by what He made.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: Rom 1:20

God brought forth everything on a principle of separation establishing an order in creation that preserved all He made. Separation is the first principle of righteousness. On the first day of creation God brought forth the light that separated darkness from darkness and it was the first day. On the second day, God separated the waters from the waters and the earth appeared. And on each succeeding day in all that He made, life was separated from life in all its forms. This is righteousness coming through order.

There is order in righteousness that maintains life. Because God is righteous, the sun comes up every morning, the earth maintains its orbit around the sun, the clouds water the earth and the earth blossoms. Because God is righteous, there are no monsters, no crossing over of life forms. Kind produces kind and all is good, just as it was when created. God set everything in its order, so life was established. This is righteousness.

Mixture is contrary to righteousness. In all creation mixture was not found except for a tree called “the tree of knowledge of good and evil,” which became the place of man’s fall. Evil comes through mixture.Here one finds the first principle of evil. The incorporation of evil is sin. It is the nature of sin to break down order and cause disintegration. All kinds of disorder come until all the life support systems of one’s life are destroyed. The working of evil is always death.

It is mixture of good and evil that destroys righteousness. Evil can look good, but when evil comes in, it destroys all that righteousness has made. How many of God’s people are feeding upon mixture? The tree could be a book, a TV, a movie, a magazine, a philosophy or a relationship. The world today is full of mixture. It will excite the flesh but result in death for the soul.

Through mixture one loses the discernment of evil. In looking upon evil, one comes to accept evil; to experience evil, one loses the discernment of evil; and when discernment of evil is lost, evil has overcome. Not following the first principle of righteousness allows evil to enter. A prophet pronounced judgment upon a nation because they had lost discernment.
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Isa 5:20

<sarcasm alert>

Excellent insights! I finally understand the Biblical logic underlying the insistence on racial segregation in the Bible Belt. No evil "mixing of races" that God had obviously created to be separate. The logic was pretty much self-evident to the folks raised in the Christian south "back in the day" before God got kicked out of our schools and inter-racial marriages were still illegal before those wicked liberals started imposing their unrighteous ideas on our Christian nation. It was back in the good old days when America was a real "Christian nation" that true Christians like Bob Jones could refuse to let blacks even enroll in his University, let alone date any of those white girls of the pure race. It was back in the day that W. A. Criswell - then Pastor of the First Baptist Church in Dallas - could boldly proclaim that Christians should "be true preachers of the Gospel" and as such must oppose desegregation because it is "a denial of all that we believe in." You can read all about it here (PDF).

<end sarcasm>

Now seriously, there are many problems with your explanation of "righteousness" in terms of "order" and "separation." Neither are essential to the idea righteousness. Hitler's regime was highly ordered, and demanded racial purity and separation from the "lesser races" like the "Jews" and "Negroes." It was an unrighteous regime based on order and separation. And mixture does not have anything to do with unrighteousness. The body of Christ is a mixture of Jew and Gentile, male and female, slave and free. It is a mixture taken from all "the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations." And Christ himself is a "mixture" of God and Human. The Holy Spirit "mixes" with our own spirit when we commune with God. There is nothing whatsoever evil or unrighteous about the concept of "mixture" in and of itself.

Here's the problem with your thesis. You secretly imported the idea of "righteous" with your idea of "God's order." So it was not the "order" itself that was "righteous" - you began with the idea of a "righteous order." There is nothing about "order" in and of itself that is "righteous." Some kinds of "order" are righteous, and some are unrighteous.

Likewise, there is nothing about a "mixture" that is evil in and of itself. If you mix good things together, they don't become wicked because of being mixed, and if you separate one kind of evil from another, the evils do not become righteous. There is no connection between "righteousness" and "separation" except in the obvious sense that by definition the righteous must be separate from the unrighteous just as even numbers are separate from odd numbers. The idea of "separation" has nothing to do with the concept of an even or an odd number.

Therefore, the idea of "righteousness" itself has nothing to do with either "order" or "separation." It is defined as something like "the quality of moral goodness." It is essentially synonymous with words like "justice, goodness, morality" and so forth.

All the best,

Richard