The Origin of Matter and Information

[throwback]

Let me begin by attempting to define the terms I used in the title so that we can at least begin on the same page. My reference to matter in the title line is not just a reference to anything that has mass and takes up space but also to natural law and the processes born from those laws. So when I refer to matter, often times I am refering to that which is natural. As for what I meant by information, initially it is a reference to DNA and perhaps RNA as well. So, information can be understood at times to be a reference to that which acts upon and causes that which exists naturally to react. In a real sense here, information can be seen as a catalyst.

So, here are my musings and questions:
A. Did matter always exist? If so, then what of antimatter?

B. What type of environment makes it possibly for what we know as natural law to have the ability to be manifested?
- for instance, does gravity exist in a true void?

C. Can darkness be defined and can darkness travel or is it simply the absense of light and nothing more?

D. Where did DNA come from?
- How could it possibly have developed initially?
- Is it possible that this information always existed?

E. Is it possible that the universe itself is centrally (at its initial expansion point) or collectively sentient and self aware?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Let me begin by attempting to define the terms I used in the title so that we can at least begin on the same page. My reference to matter in the title line is not just a reference to anything that has mass and takes up space but also to natural law and the processes born from those laws. So when I refer to matter, often times I am refering to that which is natural. As for what I meant by information, initially it is a reference to DNA and perhaps RNA as well. So, information can be understood at times to be a reference to that which acts upon and causes that which exists naturally to react. In a real sense here, information can be seen as a catalyst.

So, here are my musings and questions:

A. Did matter always exist? If so, then what of antimatter?

B. What type of environment makes it possibly for what we know as natural law to have the ability to be manifested?
- for instance, does gravity exist in a true void?

C. Can darkness be defined and can darkness travel or is it simply the absense of light and nothing more?

D. Where did DNA come from?
- How could it possibly have developed initially?
- Is it possible that this information always existed?

E. Is it possible that the universe itself is centrally (at its initial expansion point) or collectively sentient and self aware?

Very interesting topic. And I appreciate your attempt to define your terms. And in that spirit, I think we should refine them a bit.

It seems like your idea of "matter" might best be understood as "anything that can be measured." And given the equivalence of matter and energy (E = mc^2) I think "matter/energy" or even just "energy" would do fine.

As for the "laws of nature" that govern matter/energy - I don't know if they "exist" independently of matter/energy or if they should be thought of as "existing" only when there is some "stuff" around.

As for information - I don't understand why you would want to define it in terms of DNA/RNA. Yes, DNA stores information, but the concept of information extends well beyond DNA. For example, this post contains information but no DNA.

So with these clarifications, I will attempt to answer your questions:

A) Anti-matter is just a type of matter. Whether matter/energy has always existed is unknown, but we our current theory says that both matter and time "began" with the Big Bang about 13.7 billion years ago. But it is possible that the matter/energy has always existed and the universe cycles through Big Bangs and Big Crunches, or that the matter/energy of this universe came from a larger "parent" universe. These questions cannot be answered with any certainty given our current scientific understanding.

B) I think it makes the most sense to say that natural laws exists independently of matter/energy. But that leads directly to the philosophical quagmire of ontology (What does it mean to "exist?" What does "is" mean?).

C) Darkness is defined as the absence of light.

D) The origin of DNA is one of the biggest scientific mysteries. The question if information always "existed" leads us back to the quagmire of ontology. What does it mean to say that "information" exists if it is not physically manifested in a medium like a CD or book or movie or mind? But if Mind is the foundation of Reality, then yes, I would say that information has always existed.

E) Yes, that is possible. It's called "Panpsychism." It's also possible that Matter and Mind are aspects of the "One Reality" or "Universal Mind" or "Mind of God." It could be "Matter/Mind."

Great questions!

[throwback]

I'm at a point now where I take issue with calling the universe, the universe as I feel it's reasonable to believe that the universe is NOT all that there is. With that perhaps being the case, I prefer the term cosmos.
I guess I read way too much, but in the course of web surfing and channel surfing I have begun to wonder if perhaps the cosmos is in fact a white hole that is the other side of a black hole that exists within a different cosmos.
Is it possible that a much older cosmos exists that could potentially be the parent cosmos of ours? If so, that lends to numerous possibilities as to how our existense could have come about. Our cosmos could have been formed by natural means via the collapse of a star in the parent cosmos or perhap there in the other cosmos there exists a life form or forms intelligent enough to manufacture the creation of our cosmos via experimentation. If that is the case then is it too far fetched to surmize that the life forms responible for our cosmos could find a way to interact with our cosmos?

[Gil]

Howdy throwback,

I am doing nothing right now, and do not mind mental trips to the far side
of everyday thinking.

Quote: Throwback > [Our cosmos could have been formed by natural means via the collapse of a star in the parent cosmos or perhaps there in the other cosmos there exists a life form or forms intelligent enough to manufacture the creation of our cosmos via experimentation. If that is the case then is it too far fetched to surmize that the life forms responsible for our cosmos could find a way to interact with our cosmos?]

Gil > Not the collapse of a star, way-way to small. The burning up of large stars, super novas through implosion - explosion are responsible for the forming of new elements.
A major Black hole may be formed by the collision of two galaxies of something like that.
Last I heard is that their undecided on the expansion - contraction theory
of the universe. The contraction, falling in on itself may form a major
black hole , creating a vortex large enough to form something on the other side.
More to the tune of another dimension or just another universe in another dimension. Kind of fun speculating.

I do not think that the creation of our cosmos by experimentation by a higher order of beings ever occurred.
There has always been a lot of talk about the alien/UFO connection.
I have no reason to disbelieve that aliens may have visited this planet in the past, present or into the future.

When we look into the origins of the universe through our most powerful telescopes we are in reality looking into the past.
Because of the vastness, distance is measured in light years.
What we see within the far reaches, in all probability do not even exist any more.
If any thing remains ,it is not what we can see.
Whether there is something new that has been made manifest we do not know.

Does life move on, and can we be a part of that life . I think so.
I do not think that within the plan and purpose of all that has been created that life as we know life to be ( within ourselves) is all that there is.
People talk about a heaven that is not of this world where we are to go after we depart these bodies of flesh , for Christians anyway, ( I have my ideas that cover all those that are not) and I see this heaven as a reality.
However others see Jesus Christ ( It is their right to see otherwise), but to me he is as he say's he is. The new man to be. Paul like myself have to be considered heretics by fundamentalist Christianity.

If dimensionality is a reality, we may move on to another dimension.
Also as an alternative we may go to some other place within our own cosmos,
perhaps to what may have existed ,that has now been changed to something else.

Wherever it may be, I do not think that we will have any remembrance of this life and body which we now find ourselves to be in.
I just depends on what one sees within scripture. ( most see what they see)
Only Life is eternal and without end.
It says nothing about remaining in a body that we receive after we discard this one.
we may pass through many bodies, within the plan and purpose that God has for man ( we upon this planet). It says that Life is eternal not our body that encloses man now
or in the future.
What is considered a corruptible body (our flesh) , the body we take on may be incorruptible, but it says nothing of even remaining in that incorruptible body.
It may be that an incorruptible body will also see change as life moves forward.

In my lifetime, I have watched in amazement the unfolding of theory
upon theory.
From the simple to the very complex beyond my own understanding and
background.

I see the direction your going with black holes.
Even minds like Peter Hawking have changed over time.
He thought that nothing could escape a black hole because of mass compressed to such a degree that the gravitation pull involved makes it impossible.
Now he say's that a black hole is a portal through which black matter/anti matter passes through and the intelligence within passes as in a vortex , along the insides of the hole.
His old thought was that everything was lost, almost to that of nothingness.
Now he say's that nothing is lost, all is retained within a different state.
He speculates that there is something on the other side.

Last I heard they are getting closer to solving the string theory that looks at
the origin of dimensions, we being within the third.

I haven't looked into any of it for a long time, but new schools of thought are popping up at a fast pace.

Heliograms and physical reality.

Parallel universes.

A force that is pushing against matter such as planets etc, that is the opposite to that of Newton's Gravity. Making that aspect of Newton's theory out of date.

The Electric universe and others.

Anti matter? I think it is the substance of which matter is formed.

As the saying go's, "there is nothing new under the sun."

Everything, that any field of science is investigating and developing theory's
about was already in existence and science is discovering what always was.

To me, the same go's for the written word of scripture.
What the old testament implied, the new testament brought to light.

Take the old theory of alchemy that most ancients clung to.
Fire - air- water - land/earth.
Outdated ? ignorance?
If one looks at the Big Bang theory from their old point of view
of four elements, that began with the more spiritual and moved toward the physical, the Big Bang follows the same path.

Then comes the question, " What preceded fire?".
Could it be the Holy Spirit of God, who is seen to be as Fire.
The Holy Spirit is the presence of GOD who in the beginning created.

Without Life, there would be no light.

Other life forms of the intelligent type ? Such as aliens in /or from outer space.
I think that lesser and higher forms of life exist within the vastness of the Cosmos.

To think that we humans are the cream of the crop is vanity.
Go sit on a bench down at Walmart and check em out.

Even Hugh Ross, the astrophysicist, see's the alien connection of UFO- ology
to be beings from another dimension. The beings being Demons.
I disagree with him on the demon part.

Some see angels as being connected to the UFO phenomenon.

What do we really know about angels, other than they are messengers of either good or evil. Paul was a messenger of the spirit of Jesus Christ.
They represent those who sent them. Gods, Lords etc., be they deity or man.
You can't say that the angel of the LORD that was going to kill Moses Son
if he did not circumcise him was Johnny good guy.

When I was growing up, that which was science fiction has been revealed to be a reality.

What of our present science fiction? Is it not tomorrows reality?


Gil

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Howdy throwback,

I am doing nothing right now, and do not mind mental trips to the far side
of everyday thinking.

Quote: Throwback > [Our cosmos could have been formed by natural means via the collapse of a star in the parent cosmos or perhaps there in the other cosmos there exists a life form or forms intelligent enough to manufacture the creation of our cosmos via experimentation. If that is the case then is it too far fetched to surmize that the life forms responsible for our cosmos could find a way to interact with our cosmos?]

Gil > Not the collapse of a star, way-way to small. The burning up of large stars, super novas through implosion - explosion are responsible for the forming of new elements.
A major Black hole may be formed by the collision of two galaxies of something like that.
Last I heard is that their undecided on the expansion - contraction theory
of the universe. The contraction, falling in on itself may form a major
black hole , creating a vortex large enough to form something on the other side.
More to the tune of another dimension or just another universe in another dimension. Kind of fun speculating.

I agree with Gil - a single star is of course too small. But it's possible I suppose to imagine a collision of two super-galaxies that each had a super-massive black hole and that all that matter spat out into this universe. But on the other hand, that doesn't seem very elegant to me. I like the idea of an equal creation of matter/anti-matter because of the balance. The mystery then is why didn't all the matter get annihilated by anti-matter? One possibility is that the distribution of matter and anti-matter was random, which would mean that there were small regions where a little matter or anti-matter would remain after everything else was annihilated. Then those "small" regions collapsed to form matter or anti-matter galaxies. And since the galaxies are separated by many lightyears they don't meet and annihilate each other very often. But I don't recall if there are any properties of anti-matter that would be observable from other galaxies. And though we have seen some colliding galaxies, we've never seen the collision of two that were made of matter and anti-matter! That' would be the biggest explosion since the Big Bang! I don't know if this idea has been floated before. I'll have to google it.

I do not think that the creation of our cosmos by experimentation by a higher order of beings ever occurred.
There has always been a lot of talk about the alien/UFO connection.
I have no reason to disbelieve that aliens may have visited this planet in the past, present or into the future.

I agree with both points.

The "experimentation" idea is just a little too far out for me ... but then again, if we are speculating about the origin of the universe, I guess we already are pretty far "out there."

When we look into the origins of the universe through our most powerful telescopes we are in reality looking into the past.
Because of the vastness, distance is measured in light years.
What we see within the far reaches, in all probability do not even exist any more.
If any thing remains ,it is not what we can see.
Whether there is something new that has been made manifest we do not know.

Yep - and that's the nemesis of all the sic-fi space operas like Star Wars. The "warp drive" of Star Trek was just smoke and mirrors. There was no believable theory underlying it. Sure, you can "warp space-time" but that doesn't get around the problems of causality that would arise if relativity is true (which it seems to be).

Does life move on, and can we be a part of that life . I think so.
I do not think that within the plan and purpose of all that has been created that life as we know life to be ( within ourselves) is all that there is.
People talk about a heaven that is not of this world where we are to go after we depart these bodies of flesh , for Christians anyway, ( I have my ideas that cover all those that are not) and I see this heaven as a reality.
However others see Jesus Christ ( It is their right to see otherwise), but to me he is as he say's he is. The new man to be. Paul like myself have to be considered heretics by fundamentalist Christianity.

If dimensionality is a reality, we may move on to another dimension.
Also as an alternative we may go to some other place within our own cosmos,
perhaps to what may have existed ,that has now been changed to something else.

One thing for theists to think about is that God could have created a million universes before this one. Or simultaneously. Or an infinite number. Or it could be higher dimensions. Or ...

Wherever it may be, I do not think that we will have any remembrance of this life and body which we now find ourselves to be in.
I just depends on what one sees within scripture. ( most see what they see)
Only Life is eternal and without end.

I agree - life is eternal. And I tend to think of Mind as eternal too. We are the "offspring" of the Cosmic Mind is one way to look at it. Or perhaps each of us is an "incarnation" of the Cosmic Mind and we realize our true identity when we die and "wake up" from this dream.

In my lifetime, I have watched in amazement the unfolding of theory
upon theory.
From the simple to the very complex beyond my own understanding and
background.

I see the direction your going with black holes.
Even minds like Peter Hawking have changed over time.
He thought that nothing could escape a black hole because of mass compressed to such a degree that the gravitation pull involved makes it impossible.
Now he say's that a black hole is a portal through which black matter/anti matter passes through and the intelligence within passes as in a vortex , along the insides of the hole.
His old thought was that everything was lost, almost to that of nothingness.
Now he say's that nothing is lost, all is retained within a different state.
He speculates that there is something on the other side.

Fascinating stuff. I haven't read his latest works. But I do know about his big discovery of Hawking Radiation back in 1974 which says that black holes can "evaporate" because random particle/anti-particle pairs that spontaneously emerge from the vacuum state near the event horizon can't rejoin to annihilate each other if one falls into the black hole. But I just thought of a problem with this - on average, the particle falling into the black hole would be either matter or anti-matter (50-50) so by this logic black holes should be emitting anti-matter. I'll have to look into this too.

BTW - it's Stephen Hawking.

Last I heard they are getting closer to solving the string theory that looks at
the origin of dimensions, we being within the third.

I haven't looked into any of it for a long time, but new schools of thought are popping up at a fast pace.

Heliograms and physical reality.

Parallel universes.

A force that is pushing against matter such as planets etc, that is the opposite to that of Newton's Gravity. Making that aspect of Newton's theory out of date.

The Electric universe and others.

Anti matter? I think it is the substance of which matter is formed.

Rose got a couple books by Brian Greene on String Theory - the Elegant Universe and The Fabric of the Cosmos. I haven't read them yet.

Heliograms? Did you mean Holograms? I have a few books on that topic, such as the Holographic Universe by Talbot.

Anti-matter is always paired with matter. Why would you think it is the substance that matter is made of, and not vice versa? They seem perfectly symmetric to me.

As the saying go's, "there is nothing new under the sun."

Everything, that any field of science is investigating and developing theory's
about was already in existence and science is discovering what always was.

To me, the same go's for the written word of scripture.
What the old testament implied, the new testament brought to light.

Well, the thing that's "new" is the science itself, not the things that science seeks to understand.

As for the relation between the OT and NT - that makes sense to me.

Without Life, there would be no light.

Idealism, Berkeley, tree, forest, fall, sound?

To think that we humans are the cream of the crop is vanity.
Go sit on a bench down at Walmart and check em out.

Or do it virtually:

The People of Walmart

Be sure to scroll down.

[Gil]

Howdy Richard,


R >One thing for theists to think about is that God could have created a million universes before this one. Or simultaneously. Or an infinite number. Or it could be higher dimensions. Or ...

Gil > Agree. Or, like looking at someone blowing soap bubbles.
Each bubble as a separate universe. Or, Macrocosms / Microcosms.
When they first came out with electron microscopes, they shaved the hair off a persons arm, then looked at it.
Lo and behold, there were little creatures that looked much like elephants
walking through a landscape of stumps.

R > I agree - life is eternal. And I tend to think of Mind as eternal too. We are the "offspring" of the Cosmic Mind is one way to look at it. Or perhaps each of us is an "incarnation" of the Cosmic Mind and we realize our true identity when we die and "wake up" from this dream.

Gil > I can agree with a Cosmic Mind.
It is about as close as one can get to comprehending the term GOD.

As you know, the Bible is not a chemistry or physics book.
"And let there be Light".
That light is the presence of the Holy Spirit within Life.

When looking at the Logos ( Word ) when GOD created,

[ "the expression of thought," not the mere name of an object, (a) as embodying a conception or idea, ]

Call it the Mind of GOD or a Cosmic Mind. That which was created was within an intelligent mind at the beginning. Cosmic Consciousness.
He thought, spoke the Word and it was acted upon by his presence within
the earth ( Not over, or upon but within).
His Word was the expression, and it was then made manifest by his presence which was the Holy Spirit. ( LORD). that is within Life.

R > BTW - it's Stephen Hawking.
Gil > Yeah, my slip.

R > Heliograms? Did you mean Holograms? I have a few books on that topic, such as the Holographic Universe by Talbot.
Gil > Yeah, forgot how to spell it.

R >Anti-matter is always paired with matter. Why would you think it is the substance that matter is made of, and not vice versa? They seem perfectly symmetric to me.

Gil> Its been a long time since I looked into it. I to may have to take another look.
Seems like anti matter precedes matter. In the universe itself there is mostly
matter with very little anti matter. It is for that reason why I suggested that anti matter may in some way form matter.
Then there is gas and black matter.
Or does anti matter form black matter which somehow holds or is the bonding agent of matter. There is plenty of that out there.
Hell, I don't know. Glad were just speculating .

Puzzling stuff. Like electron theory is a flow of electrons (negative pot.) and in transistor theory it is a flow of holes. ( positive Pot.)

R > Idealism, Berkeley, tree, forest, fall, sound?
Gil > yeah, something like that.

Good stuff on the Walmart folk.

Gil

[Silence]

One of the best ways to get a good belly laugh is to find pictures of "Wal-martians" invading a store near you! Thanks for the link. There are plenty more to be found on Google.

[jce]

One thing for theists to think about is that God could have created a million universes before this one. Or simultaneously. Or an infinite number. Or it could be higher dimensions. Or ...

Since man is created in the image of God, and all of man's abilities, including that of imagination, are part of the package, it would mean that there is nothing impossible, if it can be imagined, for the thought that inspires the imagination originates from God who is unlimited in His creative abilities. We are still growing and learning and with that thought in mind, will there be an end to learning? I think not because I believe in God.

"And God said, Let us make man in our imagination and in the imagination of God created He him, male and female created He them"

"And man said, Let us create God in our imagination and in the imagination of man created he him, male and female created he them".

Happy imagining to all of you dreamers out there and by all means... Dream Big!!!! Because our God is Great!!!

John

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Since man is created in the image of God, and all of man's abilities, including that of imagination, are part of the package, it would mean that there is nothing impossible, if it can be imagined, for the thought that inspires the imagination originates from God who is unlimited in His creative abilities. We are still growing and learning and with that thought in mind, will there be an end to learning? I think not because I believe in God.

"And God said, Let us make man in our imagination and in the imagination of God created He him, male and female created He them"

"And man said, Let us create God in our imagination and in the imagination of man created he him, male and female created he them".

Happy imagining to all of you dreamers out there and by all means... Dream Big!!!! Because our God is Great!!!

John

Very cool! Thanks for expanding my imagination on this!

[kathryn]

Since man is created in the image of God, and all of man's abilities, including that of imagination, are part of the package, it would mean that there is nothing impossible, if it can be imagined, for the thought that inspires the imagination originates from God who is unlimited in His creative abilities. We are still growing and learning and with that thought in mind, will there be an end to learning? I think not because I believe in God.

"And God said, Let us make man in our imagination and in the imagination of God created He him, male and female created He them"

"And man said, Let us create God in our imagination and in the imagination of man created he him, male and female created he them".

Happy imagining to all of you dreamers out there and by all means... Dream Big!!!! Because our God is Great!!!

John

Yes John! Let it BE!!!