The Changing God

[heb13-13]

First off I believe that what we read of "God" in the Bible is ONLY mans projection of what they perceived the creator of the universe to be like.

All the Best,
Rose

Thanks Rose. Your clarification does help me understand your reasonings much better. I appreciate that.

I am more inclined to believe this:

2Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
2Pe 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
2Pe 1:18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Blessings to you,
Rick

[Rose]

I am not really agreeing with you.
It is interesting how you characterize Him. Does He send or do we choose? If we choose to serve other gods during our stay here on earth, won't it be more comfortable for us to continue to serve those same gods in eternity, who we devoted our entire earthly existence to? If we hated Him on earth, what would make us all of a sudden love Him in eternity? It won't be comfortable for us to be with Him in eternity if we did not desire His company on earth.

But, if He is just mythological to you, then why even waste your time on Him.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

All the best to you, too.
Rick

Hi Rick,

That's too funny... It really sounded like you were agreeing with me.

It's not quite so simple as choosing to serve another god. For example: if it were merely a matter of choosing then why doesn't Yahweh simply allow people to go on their merry way? Instead Yahweh supposedly created a place of eternal torment to send those who do not worship him, so in a sense he is saying "choose me or die!".

As for your question of "why do I bother with a mythological god" well, it is because once I found my freedom from a set of imposed doctrines drawn from a male biased book that has controlled the lives of millions, I felt the need to share my joy with others. I am free to ask any question, and search out its answer with an open mind...

All the Best,
Rose

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Thanks Rose. Your clarification does help me understand your reasonings much better. I appreciate that.

I am more inclined to believe this:

2Pe 1:16 For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
2Pe 1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
2Pe 1:18 And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.
2Pe 1:19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:
2Pe 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Blessings to you,
Rick

Hi Rick,

I can see why you would be inclined to believe that. I felt the same way for many years. But then I came to understand that the Bible contains errors, contradictions, logical absurdities, and moral abominations which it attributes to God. So I found myself on the horns of a dilemma I have yet to resolve: There is much evidence that the Bible is "from God" in some sense, and there is much evidence that it is the creation of fallible men. I used to think that this followed the pattern of Christ as the Word incarnate - fully human and fully divine. But now I see that doesn't work because there was no "sin" or error in Christ, but there is much about the Bible that is erroneous and downright evil (such as God's command to kill all the men, women, and children in the promised land).

How do you understand this problem?

Great chatting!

Richard

[heb13-13]

Hi Richard,

Good to hear from you. I have been enjoying so many threads for a long while and have been conflicted about posting for several reasons, not the least of which is that I am so busy with my family and day job. But, that aside, I wanted to tell you that I have greatly enjoyed your Biblewheel book. I ordered two and have been very blessed by the book and still am.

To your question and your dilemma. I have not yet encountered the proverbial "fork in the road" that you have and to your question, I will have to think and pray on it. That is not a cop out, I think it is a good question.

Are you referring to the following?

Exo 22:24 And my wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless.

Probably not, because the wives and children are still alive. What is your reference?

Thanks,

Best wishes,
Rick

[Gil]

Howdy Rick and Beck,


Quote: Rick > [So, if Jesus is so lovey-dovey, why did He say this? ]

Gil > You forget about audience relevance.
Most of the dialog was being addressed to the Children of
Israel, that were under the covenant of Death.

The Gospel of Jesus Christ would be given to Paul, and
was directed at a dual audience. Jews and all others that were in the flesh , outside of the Children of Israel.

Don't get the old age confused with the new.


Mat 25:30And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Gil > The light that is life, is within a man ,not exterior of him.
It is either the true light of the Father or the light of Man.
The light that is outside of God is the manifestation of mortal life.
The servants were in the presence of their master who was the light.
To be cast out from his presence is to be in outer darkness, set apart from the Father and the Son.
Same thing happened to the first Adam. He was cast into outer darkness when the presence of God departed from him.
It is the same as turning one back over to Satan.
I myself was once ex-communicated ,and turned back over to Satan, because I told them that they were not teaching the Light and Life that is of the Gospel.

Mat 25:41Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:


Gil > "Depart from me', is in the same way , as being out of his presence.

The Holy Spirit carries a two edged sword.
The word of God made manifest is as a burning fire,
The children thrown into the fiery furnace were not harmed
As they were in the presence of God.
His fire can purge ones soul of sin, as in the refining of gold.
It sears the conscience.
Jesus Christ baptizes with fire , not water.
As a consuming fire , it has been prepared for the Devil and his
Angels ( messengers).
Mans mind without the presence of God is his own Hell.
The dwelling place of the Spirit of Man outside the presence
Of God.

Mat 25:46And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Gil > To go away, is once again to depart from his presence.

Everlasting is not eternal.
Man is his own worst enemy, and he that wishes to be the
Captain of his own ship and master of his own destiny will
Reap the curses of their own making.

The unrighteous were the Children of Israel who were under
The Law of Death.
Righteousness can not be had through the works of the hands
( or minds) of man.
One in Christ must accept the Righteousness of Jesus Christ as his own righteousness, and through him is eternal life.


Quote: Rick > [ It is interesting how you characterize Him. Does He send or do we choose? If we choose to serve other gods during our stay here on earth, won't it be more comfortable for us to continue to serve those same gods in eternity, who we devoted our entire earthly existence to? If we hated Him on earth, what would make us all of a sudden love Him in eternity? It won't be comfortable for us to be with Him in eternity if we did not desire His company on earth. ]

Gil > There is only one God and all other Gods are man made .
There is only one God who gave life to all thing things upon the earth, be that life mortal or Eternal.
Only within life , is one out of eternal darkness.
Everlasting darkness is to be without or away from the presence of God.
Either one moves on ,within the plan and purpose of God for man or he does not.
Eternal darkness is lights out, a life that is no more and within the eternal darkness of Death.
No memory, no spirit, no soul, no nothing. It is good by charley.

The Gods of the flesh man are all environmental Gods of the sky or earth,
given the traits and characteristics of man.
They are nowhere to be found within the presence of the Father and the Son, whether on this earth , or where ever Heaven is , the one outside of the Mind of man.

Quote: Rick > [If we hated Him on earth, what would make us all of a sudden love Him in eternity?]

Gil > You wouldn't.
After you died to the flesh, you would not exist anymore.

What is of one age is confined to that age.

It is the Son of God Jesus Christ who has shown us the way ,the truth and the life.
We are to follow him into an eternal existence.

There was only one unpardonable sin that was to be exercised against the children of Israel.
That being " blasphemy of the Holy Spirit".
Even though we are now within the Gospel of Grace, it is probably just as valid today.

Gil
-----------

Hi Beck,

Quote: Beck > [ If that problem was that they only saw one side of God as the war God then that wasn't the case at all for God showed them his love with correction. ]

Gil > Correction? More like they were trying to correct themselves through the Law of cause and effect. Every time they screwed up, they placed themselves in greater and greater bondage. The Law being the straw that broke the camels back.

The Generations of Adam lost their relationship and the presence of God.
God only spoke to them for the most part through their prophets.
They would know both good and evil. The two faces of their God Jehovah.
The face of Man and the face of God.
The one of Good and the one of Evil.

Jehovah was their God of two faces. The Spirit of Man and the Spirit of God.
The weak, frail Enos was the first to call on the name of Jehovah.

The war God Yahwah , that of their own Spirit through Cain did not hang around the Ark all the time.
It was only when they had placed themselves within dire straights and needed a God of war to lead them in battle to destroy their enemies, would they call on the name of Yahwah. God was not leading them into the promised land, They took it through war and destroying all that was in heir path and devoting (sacrificed) them to their God Yahwah.

It was Israel who was like a locust army.

Do you call leading them out of Egypt an act of love and correction?
Do you think that God would put them within a covenant of Death?
The true God does not and has never changed.
The bondage of Egypt was a far cry easier than the Law. Being yoked to a cruel taskmaster was a greater bondage.
But who would want them to be under bondage to him. The true God?
I don't think so.
The children of Israel actually believed that Yahwah was a God and that Abraham also knew him by another name.
Abraham did, as Jehovah.
Abraham heard the voice of both the Spirit of Man and the Spirit of the true God.

They had been introduced to Yahwah by the Kenite Priest Jethro, who's linage
was that of Cain.

Exodus 2:21 And Moses was content to dwell with the man: and he gave Moses Zipporah his daughter.

Exodus 2:22 And she bare [him] a son, and he called his name Gershom: for he said, I have been a stranger in a strange land.

Exodus 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel [is] my son, [even] my firstborn:

Gil > Israel , after the generations of Adam ,after he fell away from the presence of the true God which was within the earth.
The Spirit of man was of the spirit of Cain, the first born in the flesh by Man.
Israel's soul also belonged to the Spirit of man.

The first begotten of the Father, the true God was Jesus Christ.

Exodus 4:23 And I say unto thee, ( My insert, "Moses" ) Let my son go, that he may serve me: and if thou refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay thy son, [even] thy firstborn.

Exodus 4:25 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast [it] at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband [art] thou to me.

Gil > She cast it ay the feet of the angel of the LORD. He was the bloody husband.

Exodus 4:26 So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband [thou art], because of the circumcision.

Gil > It can be argued that Abraham may have circumcised Isaac , as a sign of purification because of the promised seed that was to come of his loins.
Just as well it could be said that it was the sign/ mark of Cain. He being the first to shed blood. That of Abel.

Gil > The firstborn throughout the generations of Adam who fell, were all claimed by Satan, the Spirit of Adam and who was also made manifest through his first born son in the flesh ,Cain.
Satan, the Spirit of Cain also claimed the first born of Moses' , Gershom.

The promised seed was to be the last man in the flesh of the generations of Adam.
The promised seed through the loins of man through Abraham was passed on through the second born.


Exodus 4:24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the LORD met him, and sought to kill him.

Gil > He came to kill Gershom.

Exodus 18:19 Hearken now unto my voice, I will give thee counsel, and God shall be with thee: Be thou for the people to God-ward, that thou mayest bring the causes unto God:

Gil > It was Jethro that gave council unto Moses.

It looks more like the children of Adam and Eve began to worship Jehovah,
The two faces of good and evil.
It would be Yahwah, who in a way can be looked at as being the Son of Jehovah through Cain that became the Husband and God of the Israelites at Sinai.
Evil had found a crack in the door.

Yahwah was within the Ark of the Covenant of Death ( at least in the Holy of Holies).
It was he that the children of Israel expected to be transfigured from a Spirit to a man in the flesh as their Messiah.

It would, however, be Jesus Christ the Son of the True God of life , not Yahwah who would be their Messiah.


Gil

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard,

Good to hear from you. I have been enjoying so many threads for a long while and have been conflicted about posting for several reasons, not the least of which is that I am so busy with my family and day job. But, that aside, I wanted to tell you that I have greatly enjoyed your Biblewheel book. I ordered two and have been very blessed by the book and still am.

To your question and your dilemma. I have not yet encountered the proverbial "fork in the road" that you have and to your question, I will have to think and pray on it. That is not a cop out, I think it is a good question.

Are you referring to the following?

Exo 22:24 And my wrath shall wax hot, and I will kill you with the sword; and your wives shall be widows, and your children fatherless.

Probably not, because the wives and children are still alive. What is your reference?

Thanks,

Best wishes,
Rick

Hi Rick,

It is very good to be discussing these issues with you. I have a sense that it will go well since you read my book and know where I was coming from before I hit the "fork in the road." For many years I held the Bible in the highest esteem - so high in fact that I was blind to much of what it actually said. Case in point:

Deuteronomy 2:34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:

This kind of "total destruction" against the indigenous people was frequently commanded by God:

Deuteronomy 3:4 And we took all his cities at that time, there was not a city which we took not from them, threescore cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan. 5 All these cities were fenced with high walls, gates, and bars; beside unwalled towns a great many. 6 And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.

All the men, women, and children! And in again in 1 Samuel:

1 Samuel 15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Now if you want to really understand where I am coming from and why this disturbs me so deeply, you need only imagine you were an Israeli soldier. The Lord God Almighty has commanded you to slay everyone. So you go forth and find a village. You rip open a tent and see a 17 year old mother of two - one toddler and one at her breast - and she begs for her life, but you have no mercy, no kindness, no humanity as you swing your sword and slice her toddler in half. Her face is now covered in the blood and guts of her firstborn, and she screams and begs for mercy again, but you have no mercy. You are obeying your God and have become a baby-killer. She begs again, she clings to your feet and you kicker her away like a dog and bring down your sword, impaling her baby and her heart in one fell swoop. Then you move on to the next tent, and the next, and the next until your soul is brutalized to the point of death.

This is what I meant when I said that the Bible attributes moral abominations unto God. How do you deal with these facts?

All the best,

Richard

[heb13-13]

Howdy Rick and Beck,


Gil > There is only one God and all other Gods are man made .
There is only one God who gave life to all thing things upon the earth, be that life mortal or Eternal.

Only within life, is one out of eternal darkness.
Everlasting darkness is to be without or away from the presence of God.
Either one moves on ,within the plan and purpose of God for man or he does not.

Eternal darkness is lights out, a life that is no more and within the eternal darkness of Death.

No memory, no spirit, no soul, no nothing. It is good by charley.

The Gods of the flesh man are all environmental Gods of the sky or earth,
given the traits and characteristics of man.

They are nowhere to be found within the presence of the Father and the Son, whether on this earth , or where ever Heaven is , the one outside of the Mind of man.

Quote: Rick > [If we hated Him on earth, what would make us all of a sudden love Him in eternity?]

Gil > You wouldn't.
After you died to the flesh, you would not exist anymore.

What is of one age is confined to that age.

Gil

Hi Gil,

The only reference to eternal darkness/everlasting darkness that I can find is here:

Jud 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

So, I don't understand how it is "lights out".

Kind regards,
Rick

[heb13-13]

Hi Rick,

It is very good to be discussing these issues with you. I have a sense that it will go well since you read my book and know where I was coming from before I hit the "fork in the road." For many years I held the Bible in the highest esteem - so high in fact that I was blind to much of what it actually said. Case in point:

Deuteronomy 2:34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:

This kind of "total destruction" against the indigenous people was frequently commanded by God:

Deuteronomy 3:4 And we took all his cities at that time, there was not a city which we took not from them, threescore cities, all the region of Argob, the kingdom of Og in Bashan. 5 All these cities were fenced with high walls, gates, and bars; beside unwalled towns a great many. 6 And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city.

All the men, women, and children! And in again in 1 Samuel:

1 Samuel 15:2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Now if you want to really understand where I am coming from and why this disturbs me so deeply, you need only imagine you were an Israeli soldier. The Lord God Almighty has commanded you to slay everyone. So you go forth and find a village. You rip open a tent and see a 17 year old mother of two - one toddler and one at her breast - and she begs for her life, but you have no mercy, no kindness, no humanity as you swing your sword and slice her toddler in half. Her face is now covered in the blood and guts of her firstborn, and she screams and begs for mercy again, but you have no mercy. You are obeying your God and have become a baby-killer. She begs again, she clings to your feet and you kicker her away like a dog and bring down your sword, impaling her baby and her heart in one fell swoop. Then you move on to the next tent, and the next, and the next until your soul is brutalized to the point of death.

This is what I meant when I said that the Bible attributes moral abominations unto God. How do you deal with these facts?

All the best,

Richard

Hi Richard,

I clearly understand your question and the dilemma it poses for you. I don't think my answer will be a "traditional one", although it may be long-winded. I generally know what I want to say, but need time to develop it specifically and correctly. You are a very patient person so I know you won't mind waiting a spell. I see that I missed one of Rose's answers and don't want her to feel slighted so I will respond to her now.

Grace and peace to you,
Rick

P.S. Yes, it will go well. I have a genuine love and respect for you and Rose.

[heb13-13]

Hi Rick,

That's too funny... It really sounded like you were agreeing with me.

It's not quite so simple as choosing to serve another god. For example: if it were merely a matter of choosing then why doesn't Yahweh simply allow people to go on their merry way? Instead Yahweh supposedly created a place of eternal torment to send those who do not worship him, so in a sense he is saying "choose me or die!".

All the Best,
Rose

Hi Rose,

Glad you could find some humor in my post. We may disagree, but that is not the end of the world, is it?

I think you are right that in a sense, He is saying, "Choose me or die". The Lord never sugarcoats things. If someone is teetering on a cliff and about to plunge to their death, and you say choose this rope I am handing you or you will die, you are only telling them what the consequence of not choosing the rope will be. You are not pushing them off the cliff. On the contrary, you are trying to save them, but they have to reach out and choose that rope.

John 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

As for your question of "why do I bother with a mythological god" well, it is because once I found my freedom from a set of imposed doctrines drawn from a male biased book that has controlled the lives of millions, I felt the need to share my joy with others. I am free to ask any question, and search out its answer with an open mind...

That is kind of a bummer that men (Churchianity) imposed doctrines on you, but that is what they do and they do it very well. I think it is all part of the different "tests" that God has set up for us, to reveal our hearts and what is in them. This world is a wilderness, fraught with many dangers and plenty of tests.

Mat 18:7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come;

It certainly is a joyous experience to be free from the influence of men, especially religious men and I share in your joy. It is a wonderful feeling to know that God is not so fragile and can handle any question we have. Not only that, but He handles us shaking our fist at Him and cussing Him out from time to time. Look how Israel treated Him in the OT. He is definitely the Solid Rock, wouldn't you say?

I got saved outside of modern Christendom on a beach in the Philipines. Came back to the U.S. about 18 months later and just could not stomach "going to church". It was not that apparent to me, though. Kind of like the proverbial frog in the water. My first 18 months "in the Lord", I felt like I was living in the book of Acts. I could not help but speak of the "things which I had seen" to many people and I witnessed the Lord do mighty things in many lives. I just simply believed and acted on what I read in the Word. I found out that the more I acted on the Word, the more I understood it. It has very little if nothing to do with intellectual ascent.

When I came back to the States, I wanted to be a "good Christian" and I thought the way to do that was to "go to church". I was young in many ways. So, I became a pew sitter and fellowshipped with the back of someone's head for a couple of hours each Sunday. Did this for about year or so. Not only did I feel like "life" was draining out of me, I realized I did not agree with a lot that was being said from the pulpit. After the service, the person next to me would shake my hand and exclaim that "it was good fellowship" and tell me that he would see me next Sunday. The problem was, it wasn't fellowship at all!

I left and I knew deep down inside me that it was the right thing to do.

Since then, I have fellowshipped with Christians informally (in living rooms, cafes, work, all manner of places, etc), with the exception of about 2 years in a "non-denominational" Institutional Church. I guess I wanted to go back and see if things were really that bad and yes, things were really that bad!!

I left again.

It has been 34 years now and I prefer to be where Jesus is, outside the camp. It has been an interesting journey and I wouldn't trade it for anything. But first and foremost, it is very important to extricate oneself from the imposition of men.

This is my very short version.

Things are never as simple as they seem to be and usually much more complex.

Good to be fellowshipping with you,
Rick

[CWH]

[QUOTE]

[/INDENT]Now if you want to really understand where I am coming from and why this disturbs me so deeply, you need only imagine you were an Israeli soldier. The Lord God Almighty has commanded you to slay everyone. So you go forth and find a village. You rip open a tent and see a 17 year old mother of two - one toddler and one at her breast - and she begs for her life, but you have no mercy, no kindness, no humanity as you swing your sword and slice her toddler in half. Her face is now covered in the blood and guts of her firstborn, and she screams and begs for mercy again, but you have no mercy. You are obeying your God and have become a baby-killer. She begs again, she clings to your feet and you kicker her away like a dog and bring down your sword, impaling her baby and her heart in one fell swoop. Then you move on to the next tent, and the next, and the next until your soul is brutalized to the point of death.

This is what I meant when I said that the Bible attributes moral abominations unto God. How do you deal with these facts?

Let's see it from a different angle. What if God commanded you to slay the women and children and told you to do so as He intends to teach these evil people a lesson by subjecting them to the suffering in Hell but being merciful, He will raise them up again at a later time and give them another chance. However if you do not kill them, these evil people will in return kill you and your children and your family and God will punished you instead for your disobedience. God is also testing you for your faith in him and your obedience. It's like an army officer who commanded his soldier to kill the enemy when he can actually do it himself in order to test if the soldier is disciplined enough to obey and respect his command, failing to do so, the army officer will have the soldier court-martialed for disobeying his command.


In God we trust, Amen.