Was Jesus’ Born Sinless?

[Richard Amiel McGough]

We are held responsible because we have the free will to discern and do what is good and evil. If you want to do evil then you have to pay the price. And you will be rewarded if you do good. Almost every religion teaches that. That's is why God wants us to lead righteous life even in our sinful nature which He knew is very difficult. That's why we are still sinners and fall short of the glory of God; only faith and good works and God's grace can lead us into salvation:

"Not everyone who call me Lord, Lord can enter into the kingdom of heaven except those who did the will of my Father who is in heaven".

Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His RIGHTEOUSNESS and all these things will be added onto you. Amen

Well, now it seems like you are holding to two contradictory opinions. On the one hand, you say we are robots programs by genes and environment while on the other hand, you say that we have free will and so are responsible for our choices.

This is a very old paradox. I don't know if there is a solution. It could be that free will is an illusion, and that we are like robots. That doesn't really seem true to me, but neither do I have an explanation of what we are. It's really one big mystery - our self consciousness and sense of "freedom."

[CWH]

[QUOTE]

Well, now it seems like you are holding to two contradictory opinions. On the one hand, you say we are robots programs by genes and environment while on the other hand, you say that we have free will and so are responsible for our choices.

No contradiction; we are robots with free-will capability. Robots in my term are created beings. Even artificial robots have softwares that determine their functions and "behaviors" that must adapt with the environment.

"This is a very old paradox. I don't know if there is a solution. It could be that free will is an illusion, and that we are like robots. That doesn't really seem true to me, but neither do I have an explanation of what we are. It's really one big mystery - our self consiousness and sense of "freedom.

We do have a choice, do we? There are many passages in which God gave us a choice e.g. serve God or mammon, "those who have ears, let them hear", "anyone who chooses to do the will of God" (John 7:17) etc.


Let's do the will of God, Amen.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

No contradiction; we are robots with free-will capability. Robots in my term are created beings. Even artificial robots have softwares that determine their functions and "behaviors" that must adapt with the environment.

It would be better if you used words in a way that makes sense. Likening people to programmed robots would normally imply a lack of freewill. This is because robots are machines and have no freewill - they only do what their designer programmed them to do.

We do have a choice, do we? There are many passages in which God gave us a choice e.g. serve God or mammon, "those who have ears, let them hear", "anyone who chooses to do the will of God" (John 7:17) etc.

Yes, we have a choice. That's why we are different than robots.

[Bob May]

That's an excellent question...

I think most Christians feel that children under the age of accountability are not considered "sinners" in need of salvation, but that isn't what some passages in the Bible imply. Here are a few examples...

Rom.3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;....23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom.5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:...19)For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Rom.8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:...10) And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Myself, I don't believe anyone is a sinner in the biblical sense requiring salvation, though I do believe people do sinful (bad) things.All the Best,
Rose

So, what you are really saying is that you don't believe in salvation.

Bob

[Bob May]

My question wasn't about who sinned first, rather it was the concept of sins being passed down through the fathers lineage, because it was believe women were only "the soil for growing the seed". Our modern understanding of genetics tells us that Jesus could not have been born sinless, even if his mother was a virgin.All the Best,
Rose

It's got nothing to do with genetics.
Jesus was born sinless because he never ate the fruit of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
He came directly from God. The only "begotten" son of God.
Adam (mankind) ate of that tree.
We, also can become sons of God but by rebirth. We were all born in a condition which came about because we (Mankind) sinned long before we were ever born.
We are not held accountable as children, but guess what,.. we all sinned once we came of age.

Have a nice day,
Bob

[Richard Amiel McGough]

It's got nothing to do with genetics.
Jesus was born sinless because he never ate the fruit of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
He came directly from God. The only "begotten" son of God.
Adam (mankind) ate of that tree.
We, also can become sons of God but by rebirth. We were all born in a condition which came about because we (Mankind) sinned long before we were ever born.
We are not held accountable as children, but guess what,.. we all sinned once we came of age.

Have a nice day,
Bob

How then is Jesus the "Son of Adam?"

[Rose]

It's got nothing to do with genetics.
Jesus was born sinless because he never ate the fruit of the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
He came directly from God. The only "begotten" son of God.
Adam (mankind) ate of that tree.
We, also can become sons of God but by rebirth. We were all born in a condition which came about because we (Mankind) sinned long before we were ever born.
We are not held accountable as children, but guess what,.. we all sinned once we came of age.

Have a nice day,
Bob

The point is that Jesus did not come come directly from God in relation to what we know today to be true of genetics. The first century minds that wrote the Bible believed that the "seed" of Jesus was miraculously implanted in the virgin womb of Mary by God, thus receiving no genetic material from Mary because women were only considered to be the "soil" for growing the baby.

Today we know that half of a persons genetic material is received from the mother, hence even if Jesus had no earthly father he did have a earthly mother whose lineage could be traced back to Adam.

All the Best,
Rose

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Today we know that half of a persons genetic material is received from the mother, hence even if Jesus had no earthly father he did have a earthly mother whose lineage could be traced back to Adam.

And that's exactly what Luke does:

Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli, 24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph, ... Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

But now this seems to be a contradiction. Luke says that Jesus was born of a virgin, but that he also was a son of Adam. He seems to try to fix this by saying that Adam was "the son of God." So why did Luke trace Jesus (through Mary) back to Adam as the "son of God" - the very term used of Christ? It all seems rather confusing.

[Bob May]

How then is Jesus the "Son of Adam?"

We all recieved bodies because of the fall.
Jesus did not come that route. He recieved a body to become a messenger of and sacrifice for salvation.

There are two geneologies of Jesus one from Adam and one from Abraham the Father of faith. Thoughts (offspring) not in that direct line are us taking a wrong fork in the road. Esau and Ishmael are good examples.
The geneologies are thoughts leading to other thoughts. A thought coupled with an emotion has an outcome. These are the geneologies. Levels of awareness.

The Geneology from Abraham to Christ gives us hints as to the road home, so to speak. Steps in the opening of our eyes and ears. Perception.

But in that Jesus came in the flesh the geneology of Adam also relates to him because he had a physical body. But genetics do not dictate sin. Ways of thinking do. So genetics have nothing to do with Sin in that way.

Jesus was a son of Adam in that he came in a physical body. Not in that the outcome of Adam's sin (wrong thinking) had any effect on his thoughts and actions. He was tempted like as we are but without sin.

Hope I made myself somewhat clear.
It's not an easy subject to think about or put into words.
Bob

[Bob May]

And that's exactly what Luke does:

Luke 3:23 And Jesus himself began to be about thirty years of age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son of Heli, 24 Which was the son of Matthat, which was the son of Levi, which was the son of Melchi, which was the son of Janna, which was the son of Joseph, ... Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.

But now this seems to be a contradiction. Luke says that Jesus was born of a virgin, but that he also was a son of Adam. He seems to try to fix this by saying that Adam was "the son of God." So why did Luke trace Jesus (through Mary) back to Adam as the "son of God" - the very term used of Christ? It all seems rather confusing.

Adam was the son of God. Adam is Mankind. We rejected God he did not reject us. That is the story of the Prodigal Son.
Adam (us) were sons of God before the fall. Before eating of the Tree.
It says Adam Was the son of God. Past tense.
When we eat of the Tree of life we ARE sons of God present tense.