Why I quit Christianity

[duxrow]

Haile Selassie's influence on the world is his most enduring legacy. Born Tafari Makonnen in 1891, Haile Selassie came to be identified inextricably with Ethiopia.

A Ras-Tafarian in Jamaica informed me that Jesus couldn't have risen UP into the clouds because that would be DOWN to a Chinaman. ha.
But many of them are well educated and articulate, despite a poverty climate.

I agree with RAM about your being a good writer--enjoyed it, Mon!

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard,

The next one in the series -- the post after this one will lead off from Solomon's 420 talents of gold into one of Jesus' "failed prophecies".

[I tried to post a couple of diagrams - Chinese and Hebrew characters - re some of the links between spiritual traditions in Asia and the Middle East, but 'wiped out" on the no attachments permission - over on teh Kung Fu video thread. Anyway, back to teh Queen of Sheba for now.]

Hi refugeeguru,

You couldn't upload images because you were still on "probation." I set it up so folks have to post a few times before they have full rights so I can make sure they are not spammers. A few years ago one freak got in here and posted dozens of porno pics all over the place. I cleaned it up quick and banned him, and I put in the restriction to make sure it doesn't happen again. I have upgraded you to "Full Membership" so you can post pics and all that.

Also as an aside, there is a bug in the software that runs the forum. When I clicked "Reply With Quote" there was no quote in the edit box. So if this happens to you, don't panic, just copy and paste. I explain this bug in here.

Now on to more interesting things ...

All Knowing, All Wise, Son of God, God Incarnate, Lord of Lords, King of Kings, Omni-Potent, Omni-this and Omni-that . . . . But "he woz a dunce at geography, ya know!"

One of the humorous (for me) quirks of standard Christian belief is that the Churchian community can in the same mind, believe that Jesus was all the things they say He is (God incarnate, Lord of Lords, King of Kings, creator of the universe etc), and simultaneously believe that Jesus thought that Ethiopia was "the ends of the earth" (ie via Jesus' comment about the Queen of Sheba coming from the ends of the earth to see Solomon). They may as well say that their creator was such a clown and a retard, that He was a "flat earther" who thought you would fall off the edge once you got much past the Sudan.

Hey, that's a good one - thanks!

I say "good one" not because it implies Jesus was stupid or ignorant, but because it shows that the words "world" and "ends of the world" in the Bible refer to the land of Israel, not the globe of planet earth. This is a persistent error amongst Futurists who want the prophecies of the Olivet Discourse and Revelation to apply to the entire planet.

If you work as a writer or academic, you know that coming up with, and publishing, the 'correct conclusions', does wonders for your academic tenure, and for your having your research grant renewed again next year.

I totally agree with the fact that the academic world can be driven by fashion, conceit, arrogance and cultural prejudices. And I agree that it is prejudiced in favor of some ideas and contrary to others. But I don't think that is the reason evolution one the debate.

the Bible hints strongly at evolution, and is almost explicit about 'reverse evolution', ie that some monkeys are descended from humans

I can see a hint of evolution when God says "let the earth bring forth the living creature after its kind" ... but seriously, that's a pretty weak hint. And the idea that monkeys descended from humans? I don't think so.

the evolutionary dogma for more than can be justified by the geology and palaeontology

Every human endeavor has its fundamentalists. But the difference with science is that it is designed to be self-correcting, whereas religious dogmas are designed to shut down the mind and make zombies.

Anybody ever heard of Samoa, or the island of Upolu, where Western Samoa's capital, Apia, is located?

Yeah, yeah, just a co-incidence, like the name Pharoah, for the Egyptian monarch. The word meant house in Egyptian, so the guy in the biggest house (ie the palace), got to be known as the Pharoah. The word still means house in Te Reo, the language spoken by NZ Maori – they pronounce it Pharee – it is usually spelled in NZ English as 'Whare'.

I agree that there is much to be learned by etymology, but there must be more evidence than similarity in sounds. I have a book called The Word by Mozeson that purports to trace all languages to Hebrew. There are many striking "coincidences" such as "fall" and "nefal" (which mean the same thing). But it can be very challenging to discern between chance and linguistic dependence.

'Yeah, Dem Hebrews woz ignorant and primitive, ya know, just simple goat herders out in da desert.. Same for their wannabe messiah. Pity though, coz He didn't half hav some nice ideas'.

'Yeah, 'twould be nice if ya could believe what He said'.

'Yeah, I know, but you can't, can ya?

I mean, He honestly thought dat bimbo queen lived at da edge of da earth. As for dat Solomon – they reckon he woz da smartest geezer wot ever lived – yet hiz lot thought Damascus and Cairo woz just about da whole world'.

'Yeah, ridiculous, izn't it. Dey didn't know as much as a 2nd grade kid duz now, yets dey wants you to believe wotz in deir book'.

'Not that I want to knock dems dat needz dat sort of spiritual stuff. Yeah, each to his own, ya know, datz wot I alwayz sez'.

I understand where you are coming from, but your caracature of the contradictions and errors in the Bible doesn't accurately represent the problems that leap out and knock over every intelligent person who attempts to read the Bible with believing eyes.

I think it would be very interesting if we could just cut to the chase and deal with the real issues that have cause me to reject Christianity. Maybe you'd like to have a go with the 32,000 virgins that were distributed to the soldiers that slaughtered every person they ever loved. Numbers 31.

Great chatting!

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

A Ras-Tafarian in Jamaica informed me that Jesus couldn't have risen UP into the clouds because that would be DOWN to a Chinaman. ha.
But many of them are well educated and articulate, despite a poverty climate.

Just goes to show that religion tends to make people bold in their stupidity!

[refugeeguru]

Hi refugeeguru,

You couldn't upload images because you were still on "probation." I set it up so folks have to post a few times before they have full rights so I can make sure they are not spammers. A few years ago one freak got in here and posted dozens of porno pics all over the place. I cleaned it up quick and banned him, and I put in the restriction to make sure it doesn't happen again. I have upgraded you to "Full Membership" so you can post pics and all that.

Also as an aside, there is a bug in the software that runs the forum. When I clicked "Reply With Quote" there was no quote in the edit box. So if this happens to you, don't panic, just copy and paste. I explain this bug in here.


I think it would be very interesting if we could just cut to the chase and deal with the real issues that have cause me to reject Christianity. Maybe you'd like to have a go with the 32,000 virgins that were distributed to the soldiers that slaughtered every person they ever loved. Numbers 31.

Great chatting!

Richard

Hi Richard,

I will have a go at loading the Chinese character pics - thanks (over on the Kung Fu thread).

I had planned a few posts to lead you gently to the Numbers 31 slaughter -- the next one, re JC's apparently fouled up prophecy - will lead into the Bible concepts of male and female (slightly more complex than our physical / biological understanding), which underly what happened in Numbers 31.

The "minkeys" (to quote Inspector Clouzot) and the 32,000 virgins, are somewhat connected -- as far as I know, there is no scientific evidence for the reverse evolution into monkeys thesis, but it is reasonably well accepted in some rabbinic circles, as a spin-off from studies associated with the Sepher Yetzireh (which, I think was one of the catalysts for your original Bible Wheel research(??).

The 32,000 virgins story is also tied to the SY Tree of Life concept via the usual 32 paths, Lev, join of the first and last verses of the Torah, the splitting of Jesus' heart and Hitler's Spear of Destiny, and the feeding of the 5,000.

The Asia and Pacific links to the Middle East go beyond etymology -- again, from the SY, Madame Pele (that grumpy volcano goddess in Hawaii), and Polynesian creation "myths" have links with Abraham's teaching. Ditto for the name Hawaii, and also for some of the ceremonies conducted on Chinese New Year -- might do a write-up for you after I have gotten past Numbers 31.

Will be away (teaching) for a large chunk of next week, so it might be after that before I get back to the "JC prophecy stuff-up" post,

Regards,

Peter

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard,

I will have a go at loading the Chinese character pics - thanks (over on the Kung Fu thread).

I had planned a few posts to lead you gently to the Numbers 31 slaughter -- the next one, re JC's apparently fouled up prophecy - will lead into the Bible concepts of male and female (slightly more complex than our physical / biological understanding), which underly what happened in Numbers 31.

The "minkeys" (to quote Inspector Clouzot) and the 32,000 virgins, are somewhat connected -- as far as I know, there is no scientific evidence for the reverse evolution into monkeys thesis, but it is reasonably well accepted in some rabbinic circles, as a spin-off from studies associated with the Sepher Yetzireh (which, I think was one of the catalysts for your original Bible Wheel research(??).

The 32,000 virgins story is also tied to the SY Tree of Life concept via the usual 32 paths, Lev, join of the first and last verses of the Torah, the splitting of Jesus' heart and Hitler's Spear of Destiny, and the feeding of the 5,000.

The Asia and Pacific links to the Middle East go beyond etymology -- again, from the SY, Madame Pele (that grumpy volcano goddess in Hawaii), and Polynesian creation "myths" have links with Abraham's teaching. Ditto for the name Hawaii, and also for some of the ceremonies conducted on Chinese New Year -- might do a write-up for you after I have gotten past Numbers 31.

Will be away (teaching) for a large chunk of next week, so it might be after that before I get back to the "JC prophecy stuff-up" post,

Regards,

Peter

Hi Peter,

I'm getting the impression that your approach is to "spiritualize" everything. If so, I should save you some time and let you know such an approach won't help me. If I wanted to spiritualize all the problems, I could do it in a heartbeat on my own. I don't need someone else to do it for me. But I don't feel like spiritualizing everything in the Bible because I recognize that as just making up stuff. It doesn't have any power of conviction. And if I did it, I'd just make up my own stuff using bits and pieces from every religion and science and everything, so I certainly wouldn't end up being "Christian" in any sense, even if I believed that "Jesus" was real.

Don't mean to be splashing you with cold water. Just want to let you know where I'm coming from.

All the best,

Richard

[refugeeguru]

Hi Richard,

I started on the Dumbo thread, and my eyes opened like saucers when I saw what you had there, especially one of your journal pages.

If I haven't done so within a few weeks, chase me to write up the significance of your 528. I think you would be fascinated with what you plugged into with those dreams and prompts / cues.

(Haven't gotten too far through the Dumbo thread, but it reads / sounds like you have some nice & interesting people on teh forum,

Regards,

Peter

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard,

I started on the Dumbo thread, and my eyes opened like saucers when I saw what you had there, especially one of your journal pages.

If I haven't done so within a few weeks, chase me to write up the significance of your 528. I think you would be fascinated with what you plugged into with those dreams and prompts / cues.

(Haven't gotten too far through the Dumbo thread, but it reads / sounds like you have some nice & interesting people on teh forum,

Regards,

Peter

Saucer eyes ... I love it! That's how I felt a lot of the time back then.

And yes, there have been some great and interesting folks on the forum. They come and go. I think some of my best friends maybe got tired of reading about the problems that Rose and I have with the Bible. But I expect they will come back after a bit of a rest ... and after I'm done getting all that out of my system. After ten years as a fundamentalist, I really needed to clear the air and express my true feelings.

I look forward to your insights on the number 528 - it really is a "key" to some amazing patterns.

Richard

[gbausc]

Hello Richard,

Thomas Jefferson wrote: "Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."

I congratulate you for throwing Christianity as you found it overboard. I am a doubly ordained minister with a fundamentalist training and background who has done what you have done, in a slightly different way.
I congratulate your courage and intellectual honesty in your reasoning and moral position for standing up against an unjust God and Messiah and being willing to face the consequences.

You are a heroic spirit!
I salute you.

I threw off the constraints of Fundamentalism in 1983, ten years after my conversion experience in 1973 as a Junior Pre-Med student at Rutgers University.
I became a Universalist when I read a book -"At The Master's Feet" by Sadhu Sundar Singh. See the link http://www.ccel.org/ccel/singh for a short bio.

Christianity is not the Bible or Jesus Christ; Christianity is a religion- a system of doctrines and traditions formulated by men.
Jesus never taught everlasting Hell fire and torment as the fate of anyone. He taught His disciples that His purpose for coming into the world:

"For God did not send his Son into the world that he would condemn the world, but that he would give life to the world by him." John 3:17
& "For The Son of Man has come to save whatever has been lost." Mat 18:11
"For The Son of Man has not come to destroy lives but to give life." And they went to other villages. -Luke 9:56
"And whoever hears my words and does not keep them, I am not judging him, for I have
come, not to judge the world, but to give life to the world." -John 12:47
These things spoke Yeshua and lifted his eyes unto Heaven and he said: "My Father, the hour has come; Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you."
"Just as you have given him authority over all flesh*, he will give eternal life to them, because you have given all things* whatsoever unto him." -John 17:1,2

"I have glorified you in the earth; I have accomplished the work that you have given me to do." -John 17:4

I could go on, but this should be enough evidence to confirm Christ's purpose for coming, in His own words, and His testimony before His Father that He had accomplished that purpose.

The above verses are taken from my translation of the Aramaic Peshitta New Testament. Many contradictions and errors in other translations are cleared up in this one, as the Peshitta NT is the true
original NT, of which the Greek NT is a somewhat flawed translation. I have a web site with more info and my books on this subject and interlinear and plain English translations.

I have found true liberation and light in this discovery of The Truth in my spirit, straight from God's Spirit to mine.
You will too; I have no doubt!

God is Love- universal, unconditional, infinite, impartial, eternal, immutable, unfathomable, indescribable, invincible, irresistible, almighty Love!

"I in them and you in me, so that they shall be perfected as one, and so that the world shall know that you have sent me, and that you have loved them just as you have also loved Me." -John 17:23

And I bow my knees to The Father of Our Lord Yeshua The Messiah,
Him from whom every fatherhood is named, that is in Heaven and in Earth,
That he would grant you according to the riches of his glory to be confirmed by power in
his Spirit, that in your inner person,
The Messiah may dwell by faith, and in your hearts by love, when your root and your foundation shall be confirmed,
That you can discover with all the holy, what is the height and depth and length and breadth,
And you may know the magnitude of the knowledge of the love of The Messiah and you may be filled in all the fullness of God.
But to him who is more than almighty to do for us and is greater than what we ask or imagine, according to his power that is active in us,
To him be glory by his church in Yeshua The Messiah to all generations of the eternity of eternities. Amen. -Ephesians 3:14-21

But in all these things we are victorious by him who has loved us.
For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor Angels, nor Authorities, nor Powers, nor things present, nor things future,
Nor height, nor depth, neither any other created thing, shall be able to sever me from the love of God, which is in Our Lord Yeshua The Messiah. -Rom. 8:37-39

Romans 8
19. For the whole creation hopes for and expects the revelation of the sons of God.
20. For the creation has been subjected to futility, not by its choice, but because of him who subjected it upon hope.
21. For the creation shall also be freed from the bondage of destruction into the liberty of the glory of the sons of God.
22. For we know that all created things groan and are in labor until today.

Philippians 2
5. And reason in your souls this that also Yeshua The Messiah did:
6. He who, while he was in the form of God, did not esteem this as a prize, that he was the equal of God,
7. But he stripped himself and took the form of a Servant and was in the form of the children of men, and was found in fashion as a man.
8. And he humbled himself and was obedient unto death, even the death of being crucified.
9. Because of this, God has also greatly exalted him and he has given him The Name which is greater than all names,
10. That in The Name of Yeshua, every knee shall bow, which is in Heaven and in The Earth and which is under The Earth,
11. And every tongue shall confess that Yeshua The Messiah is THE LORD JEHOVAH* to the glory of God his Father.

3. Because I inform you of this: there is no man who speaks by The Spirit of God and says, "Yeshua is damned", neither can a man say,
"Yeshua is THE LORD JEHOVAH", except by The Spirit of Holiness. - 1 Cor 12:3

Run after peace with every man, and after holiness, without which no one shall see Our Lord. -Hebrews 12:14

Behold, he comes with clouds and every eye shall see him, even those who pierced him, and all the families of The Earth shall mourn for him; yes and amen! - Rev. 1:7

13. And every creature which is in Heaven and in Earth, under The Earth, in the Sea and all that is in them, I also heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and dominion to him sitting upon the throne and to the Lamb for the eternity of eternities." -Rev. 5:13

3. And they sang the song of Moses the Servant of God and the song of The Lamb. They were saying: "Great and marvelous are your works, LORD JEHOVAH God Almighty. Just and true are your works, King of the universe."
4. Who will not reverence you, LORD JEHOVAH, and glorify your name? For you alone are holy. Therefore, all the nations will come and will worship before you, because you are true." -Rev. 15:3,4

"Now is the judgment of this world; now The Ruler of this world is hurled outside."
And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself."
He said this that he might show by what death he would die. -John 12:31-33


David Bauscher

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hello Richard,

Thomas Jefferson wrote: "Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason, than that of blind-folded fear."

I congratulate you for throwing Christianity as you found it overboard. I am a doubly ordained minister with a fundamentalist training and background who has done what you have done, in a slightly different way.
I congratulate your courage and intellectual honesty in your reasoning and moral position for standing up against an unjust God and Messiah and being willing to face the consequences.

You are a heroic spirit!
I salute you.

I threw off the constraints of Fundamentalism in 1983, ten years after my conversion experience in 1973 as a Junior Pre-Med student at Rutgers University.
I became a Universalist when I read a book -"At The Master's Feet" by Sadhu Sundar Singh. See the link http://www.ccel.org/ccel/singh for a short bio.

Hey there David,

Welcome to our forum!



Thank you for your encouraging words. I love the quote by Thomas Jefferson. My personal variation on that theme is that if God really is the author of the Bible, then he filled it with contradictions and errors to make Biblical fundamentalism impossible for rational and honest people. In other words, if we respect the Bible sufficiently to think it really is the literal inerrant Word of God then we must conclude that God intended us to not believe that it is the literal inerrant Word of God, and we see that Biblical fundamentalism deconstructs itself. It is self-contradictory.

Are you still a Universalist? That was my solution to the problem of hell (and biblegod's injustice and unkindness to most of his creatures) just before I finally realized that I differed so radically from traditional Christianity that I could not call myself a Christian anymore.

The above verses are taken from my translation of the Aramaic Peshitta New Testament. Many contradictions and errors in other translations are cleared up in this one, as the Peshitta NT is the true original NT, of which the Greek NT is a somewhat flawed translation. I have a web site with more info and my books on this subject and interlinear and plain English translations.

I have found true liberation and light in this discovery of The Truth in my spirit, straight from God's Spirit to mine.
You will too; I have no doubt!

God is Love- universal, unconditional, infinite, impartial, eternal, immutable, unfathomable, indescribable, invincible, irresistible, almighty Love!

I found your site: http://aramaicnt.com

There is much I would like to discuss with you. I agree that there is plenty of evidence of an Aramaic influence and background in the NT, but I have never seen sufficient evidence to convince me that the entire NT was originally written in Greek. We have discussed this quite a bit on this forum since one of the members was a strong advocate for it. But I see many problems with it. It seems to directly contradict the manuscript evidence since all the earliest fragments of the NT are in Greek. And the Gospel of John is totally "Greek" in flavor and style. "En arche hen ho logos" etc. And Paul's letters seem to have been authored in Greek, not translated. The strongest evidence for me personally is from my study of Gematria and what I call the Biblical Holographs which are profoundly coherent alphanumeric structures found in key passages of both the Hebrew OT and the Greek NT. I mention this here because you have used ELS as evidence for your belief in the Aramaic primacy. Personally, I've never seen any ELS that convinced me of design (other than the example of the Torah ELSs in the Torah, and the Wheel of Light which I discovered).

But on the other hand, I know (off the top of my head) of two NT problems that the Peshitta fixes rather elegantly. 1) The problem with Matthews genealogy, and 2) The problem of Romans 5:7 (ETH = Etheridge Translation of the NT Peshitta)

KJV Romans 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

ETH Romans 5:7 ---for hardly for the wicked one dieth; for on account of the good one may perhaps dare to die.

That verse always bugged me. It would make no sense for Paul to be contrasting the righteous with the good.

Again, I'm really glad you came by to share the fruits of your labor and to encourage us all to pursue the TRUTH without letting dogmas twist us towards falsehood.

All the very best,

Richard

[gbausc]

Shlama Richard,

I am a universalist, still, and an even more passionate and confident one than when I first became one.
The Eastern churches of the first four centuries were primarily universalist by default, since the doctrine of everlasting torments was not formalized
until Augustine in the 5th century. What is called Christianity today in the West is a far cry from the Christianity of the Church of The East now and then, and a far cry from most of early Christianity of the early centuries of the faith.

I agree with your statement about the scriptures, especially with regard to the Greek NT, which I demonstrate to be a translation of the Peshitta in all 27 books of the New Testament in 200+ pages of notes in my
translation of the Peshitta. See edition 7 for the most recent ed. I even illustrate how the Aramaic was translated sometimes in two or even three ways by different translators in hundreds of places throughout the NT. The evidence supports the Peshitta as the original; it decidedly gives the lie to the converse position that the Greek is the original and Peshitta NT a translation of Greek.

I have written another book, Divine Contact, which documents how I discovered the Peshitta NT as the original and Divinely written NT, and lists abundant documenting evidence of several types.
My book, Jegar Sahadutha, gives the notes of the NT alone, with interlinear verse for each example added, so the reader can see the text and literal translation for the verse being discussed.

The Peshitta has many more treasures to be unearthed, than the two you mentioned. I have no doubt that it will ring the truth bells of your spirit like no other text can. It is the boldest and most outrageously
hopeful and inspiriting book ever written.
I have found evidence that the Sopherim maliciously edited the Hebrew Bible in the 1st century, as a reaction to the doctrine of the Messiah Yeshua and His Apostles, especially with regard to the doctrine of the Deity of Messiah and the Triunity of the Godhead, also in regard to the Bible doctrines on the rich and the poor, which our Lord used scathingly against the Pharisees and Sadducees:

13. "There is no servant who can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will honor the one and he will neglect the other. You cannot serve God and money."
14. But when the Pharisees heard all these things, they were mocking him because they loved money.
15. But Yeshua said to them: "You are those who justify themselves before men, but God knows your hearts, for the thing that is exalted among men is disgusting before God."- Luke 16

19. "There was a certain rich man, and he wore fine white linen and purple and everyday he celebrated luxuriously."
20. "And there was a certain poor man whose name was Lazar and he lay at the gate of that rich man, being stricken with abscesses." - Luke 16:19-20, etc.

The Peshitta Old Testament, which I am now translating (Torah) preserves in its 1st century Aramaic translation of the Hebrew Bible the unadulterated readings of the original Hebrew, and often agrees with the LXX of the 3rd century BC against the edition of the Massoretes in Psalms and Proverbs, which I have completed and published along with the NT. The Massoretes did deliberately alter many readings; fortunately, they kept notes of those changes in their Massorah notes, kept in the margins of many Hebrew manuscripts.

If we judge Christianity by what men represent it to be, we will judge wrongly, I think. If we judge it by the teaching of Yeshua and His Apostles as found in the Peshitta, and by the works of true lovers of God and men, we will not go far wrong.

Tehweh khaleem
(Be well),

Dave