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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by cer1056 View Post
    I would further discuss the third point.

    Since you suggest by the existence of this site that you are more interested in TRUTH than the common fallacy of just appearing to be right - I will go further.
    That is excellent! I hope we can work together so we both advance in our common pursuit of TRUTH.

    Quote Originally Posted by cer1056 View Post
    You throw thow baby out with the bath water.

    To be smugly right on your own web site where you have the power to cut me off or not respond is obviously yours to choice -since I must at the risk of offending you, I will risk being a little impolitely BLUNT with the possibility that I might actually get through. SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO HIT THE STUBBORN MULE OVER THE HEAD - JUST TO GET ITS ATTENTION.
    Hey now! Believe me, I know from much experience on other forums exactly what you are talking about. You have nothing to worry about here. You can speak freely. You can be blunt. I won't ban you or ignore you. I only get irritated if you become stupid and irrational and unreachable. I love plain speech, and I encourage it in others.


    Quote Originally Posted by cer1056 View Post
    You bio says you studied physics and mathematics.

    If you got anything out of it you know that there are rules of how the Universe functions. The Bible says God is a god of Order.
    If you knew anything about me, you would know that I "got" that understanding loud and clear!


    Quote Originally Posted by cer1056 View Post
    I would suggest that God is the ultimate scientist operating by the rules he established. And there may very well be a hierarchical set of rules where dominance is displayed.

    A child learns to speak by experience and practice - by emulating those who know how to speak.

    By observation it has been observed that some young children in an attempt to learn how to speak - speak backwards at first (they get it all wrong), this is called reverse speech and has been repeatedly verifed by recording young childrens speech and playing it backwards to hear it forewards.
    Please post a link to the evidence. I have never heard anything about "reverse speech" except in two places. 1) Adults who have developed this ability as a novelty, and 2) silly superstitious folks who think that satanic messages were hidden in records and Obama's inauguration speech and things like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by cer1056 View Post
    Children have to learn the syntax (order and sequence) of speech by trial and error - through first hand experience of What Works. They can' learn about it in a book. Even the smartest children have to learn speech the same old fashion way how to get the direction of speech correct. There are no magic formulas, just learning by positive results of what finally works.
    You are beginning to look very gullible to me. I Googled children reverse speech and found all the lunatic sites that think secret message can be "revealed" this way. It's just pareidolia. Finding patterns where there are none. I find it outrageously ironic that you first appeal to my backgroung in science and then throw all this unscientific crap at me.

    Quote Originally Posted by cer1056 View Post
    Logic and Reason are not an end all to life or research. Certain things have to be experienced first hand to understand them, let alone explain them to someone else who doesn't have a clue.

    My mother for all her attempts to teach people - could not teach us Prayer and faith by telling us how, or quoting verses. Her answer was to basicly read, study, and pray like her for 20 years to learn how - first hand.

    Bandler and Grinder, psychologists, wished to learn the secrets of the most famous 20th century psychologist hypnotist Milton Erikson. They asked him hundreds of questions about his methods and got no where. Only when they studied him by first hand observation and then began questioning him about what he was thinking in side his head did they eventually break through. Not even the eminent Dr. Erickson knew exactly how to explain what he was doing all the time - he just knew that it WORKED! These two men created the field of NLP - Neuro Linguistic Programming: the study of modeling excellence in performance.
    I'm familiar with NLP. But your comments seem rather non-sequential. You start with Science, switch to reverse speech, now you mention NLP. Am I supposed to be following a train of thought here?

    Quote Originally Posted by cer1056 View Post
    The very fact that you are so intelligent and mentally sharp in logic and reason is actually a real detriment to people such as myself and yourself!
    Exactly correct. We have two hemispheres for a reason. I am extra strong on the left - that's words, logic, analysis, etc. But that doesn't mean I'm deficient on the right (wholistic vision, intuition, etc.) - though I do think I am in some ways. But making me the topic of conversation is not wise at this point, since you should be simply responding to the responses I gave in my previous post.

    Quote Originally Posted by cer1056 View Post
    Logic and Reason can very unconveniently paint you into a box where there are no windows or answers to what appear contradictory. Paradox are apparent contradictions that many times eventually turn out to be true.
    That is exactly correct. The left brain is rational, but reality is not. The perfect example is the relation between rational numbers and the square root of 2.

    But I already know these things. Why are you not responding to the points I made?

    Quote Originally Posted by cer1056 View Post
    The study of Physics is about Forces and Energy.

    As a Physicist - the bottom line answer is always: what works!
    Actually, that's the mantra from Scientology, not science. And the joke is that nothing they did really "worked." It was all illusion but they kept talking about how it "worked." What a sad, pathetic joke that cult is.

    Quote Originally Posted by cer1056 View Post
    Are you really interested in the Real answer of how Prayer gets answered or would you persist in the immature and ignorant answer of - I don't like the idea that there is a method to the way things work!
    Well, if you ever want to get around to giving a "Real answer" I'll let you know what I think of it.

    Quote Originally Posted by cer1056 View Post
    And just because most modern people don't understand how it works is no answer. Just because a million flies don't understand that eating crap is bad doesn't mean that any of them are right.

    Ask the US Patent Office if there is anything to Method? ALL Patents are based in METHOD that WORKS! That’s 100% of the time.
    The concept of METHOD is entirely Left brained. I can't believe you would think to manipulate God with a "METHOD." That is anti-Christian in the most fundamental sense since Christianity is based on a loving relation between the believer as a child of God as Father. I can't believe you don't see this, and I find it even more curious that you say it even after I revealed this error in my previous post.

    Quote Originally Posted by cer1056 View Post
    You didn't do the research and write the book by guessing - you found what worked and executed it very well - I might add.
    Thank you! I'm still pleased with the result even though I'm no longer a Christian.

    Quote Originally Posted by cer1056 View Post
    I have not and probably could not do what you have done. But apparently you have neatly painted yourself into a nice box about your perception of reality - or lack of it.
    That would be easy enough to prove if you would quit with the empty rhetoric and point towards something real that I have failed to perceive.

    Quote Originally Posted by cer1056 View Post
    Just because you found something that You or most people can't do does not invalidate it.
    That's why I would never base my judgment on such an absurd claim.

    Don't you realize that you are writing many words without actually saying anything? You have not responded to the things I wrote in my last post! Why not?

    Quote Originally Posted by cer1056 View Post
    Getting mad because you failed at something the first time or even 10 times does not prove that something is WRONG! Just that you got it wrong.
    What are you talking about? Who got mad?

    Quote Originally Posted by cer1056 View Post
    In regards to the Western Mentality of Science - they preach that you must always be Skeptical. They are just plain wrong! The correct approach is to be neutral or unbiased and let the research and results show you the way reality works.
    Skepticism is the antisceptic of the mind. I don't think you understand that.

    Quote Originally Posted by cer1056 View Post
    The bottom line is - don't prejudge without first hand experience.
    It's obvious I am not "prejudging." I have had much experience and I gave solid reasons for my skepticism. You, on the other hand, have not answer most of the points I made. Why is that?

    Quote Originally Posted by cer1056 View Post
    You have the option of learning one of the greatest secrets in the world or you can neatly declare that you are right and dismiss this issue out of hand.
    Well I'm all ears, dude! All you gotta do is, like, uh, say something with some content, like, uh, maybe sometime this year before you wear out your keyboard with all this other stuff?

    Quote Originally Posted by cer1056 View Post
    I come to you in the Christian tradition of Charity offering to freely teach you what probably no one else can offer.
    Then why haven't you actually said anything that I can use?

    Quote Originally Posted by cer1056 View Post
    Are you going to honestly tell me that you don't want to know the answers to this subject of Prayer and Faith?
    Did I say that?

    Quote Originally Posted by cer1056 View Post
    Did you know its kind of hard to talk to someone if they Won’t Plug the telephone into the wall. And then you can ask the question whose fault or problem is it?

    Well that’s my two cents worth.

    Do as you will.

    I ask your pardon if I have been forward in this response.

    Regan
    As mentioned at the beginning of my post, I LOVE plain speech. And as you can see, I treat others the way I want them to treat me - speak plainly. Tell me what you mean. Don't worry about offending me. Just get to the point already!

    So please, just state your "Method" so we have something substantive to talke about.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  2. #162
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    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    The three points you listed are likewise for me also considered "Deal breakers", but I would add a fourth that was for me the "final straw", that would be the masculine bias attributed God. Realizing that the "God" portrayed in the Bible is a god created by men from ideas in their own minds, was what finally pushed me to the point where I could no longer call myself a Christian.

    From a woman's perspective "God" being portrayed as male has always evoked conflicting feelings that men would never experience. Trying to relate to a male creator that is constantly assaulting a woman's most innate feminine sense, is something that a man never has to experience because of God's masculine nature.

    Rose
    Rose, dear Rose

    From a womann's perspective.............?

    What happened in the Garden after Eve was beguiled? What consequence was given to her from Yah/Yahsua?

    Please don't fall into the trap of Feminism, a product of Satan, another lie.

    For me, the Bible intrprets the Bible. I started in the Beginning Genesis 1:1 and line upon line, precept, upon, precept, the Word has opened my eyes to many principles, and most assurdly the character of our God, Yah, and our Savior, Yeshua aka JC.

    I am new to this forum and I am not a preterist nor am I a futurist or a humanist or a new ager. I am a child of the living God, who has a fallen nature of flesh, that can only be purified with his chastisements and the convicion of sin, at which point, I repent daily, for I am human and not a God.

    For me, each reading of Scripture I do and the rereading opens other revealtions that are throughout the Bible. As I mentioned line upon line, precept upon precept. I don't know it all, but I am getting a pretty good picture of what is required to be saved, for I long to know Yeshua intimately, he is my only hope for eternal life and not damnation.

    I have run out of words, so I will leave it at that. I will be studying and I will become more involved with the forum topics as I can posssibly become without having to use the Blue Letter Bible to quote Scripture to you all, as I don't seem to be able to retain Book , verse, no., etc..

    Praise God from who all Blessings flow, Neah

  3. #163
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    I moved the comments by dan b to their own thread since they were not written in response to the OP.

    Here the new thread:

    The Teachings of Dan B
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  4. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    When I started this forum in 2007, I identified myself as a "Bible-believing Christian" in no uncertain terms. For example, here is how I described myself in my old FAQ (which remains on my old site for historical purposes):
    Are you a Christian? Protestant? Catholic?
    Praise God, I am a man saved by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Ephesian 2:8). I am a non-denominational blood-bought Bible-believing Trinitarian Christian. I believe that the true 'faith which was once delivered unto the saints' (Jude 3) is well stated in the early creeds of the church that Christ founded.
    Likewise, here is my testimony about the purpose of my website on the old homepage:
    To this end I labour, to glorify the Triune God; to glorify the Father Almighty, Creator of all, to glorify His Son Jesus Christ my Saviour and Hope, and to glorify the Giver of all divine gifts, my Comforter, Guide, Teacher and Friend, God the Holy Spirit. To You be the glory, thrice holy blessed God of Eternity! To You be the glory, now and forevermore. Amen. Amen. Amen.
    And here are the thanks I gave to Christ on my old About page:
    I remain eternally grateful to my Lord Jesus Christ, the King of the Universe, for shedding His Light upon me and guiding my path usually without my knowledge and giving me both the burning desire and the ability to proclaim the neverending wonders of His Holy Word. Oh! The wonders of His Grace! Had He left me to myself, doubtless Id be dead or wandering aimless and lost through this dark world. Thank you, my Lord!
    So, that's where I was in 2007. How is it possible that I now reject the faith I once believed with such passion? What changed? The answer is really pretty simple. I was "blinded" by the light I saw in the Bible. Anyone who has entered in to the Bible with believing eyes knows how it can capture the soul. It feels alive. It touches chords that resonate down into the deepest parts of ourselves. It is filled with light everywhere you look: the Gospel message shines with its numinous symbolic elements like the Alpha Omega, the Cross, the Dove, the Death and Resurrection of Christ, and on and on it goes. Who wouldn't want to believe such a story? Indeed, the believer wonders how anyone could resist such an amazing Gospel message. And beyond all that, I had the overwhelming witness of the Bible Wheel which seemed to confirm everything about the Bible as the very Word of God. All these thing blinded me to the "dark side" of the Bible. I simply "overlooked" all the problematic passages, errors, contradictions, and moral abominations that didn't fit with the amazingly glorious, and blinding, vision of the Bible as "God's Word."

    So here are three of the primary issues that conspired to finally convince me that the traditional Christian faith is not true.

    1) The Doctrine of Hell

    I cannot conceive of a good God who would design an eternal evil in which souls suffer eternal conscious torment. This is a central doctrine accepted by the vast majority of Christians.

    2) The Bible contains many errors, contradictions, logical absurdities, and moral abominations attributed to God.

    This point covers a very large class of problems. Many recent threads deal with them. The most significant to me are the moral abominations attributed to God, such as his command to kill all the men, women, and children of people in Canaan.

    3) God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers.
    This fact seems incontrovertible and it directly contradicts the central promises of the Bible. It was the "final straw" for me.

    I would be delighted to dig into these issues with anyone interested.


    Throughout the Old Testament, god instructs people to kill the enemies/unbleivers -and we can also assume that some of those killed were in the wrong place at the wrong time (ie. unjust killing).

    Since history has shown that the heart of humankind is evil, don't you think that murder/rape/slavery was going to happen -even without yahweh's blueprint?


    the slave trade is more numerous now than in the 18th century. and america was more bible centered back then (1700's). If it's because of more people in the world as of 2012, then I suppose it's because the network of slavery has expanded to more pimps/owners/nations.

    zechariah 14 "god instructs to rape the women"

    Any www.xxxporn website will show how sick and twisted the fetishes that humankind has. (shackles/blindfolds/bondage/slave sex fetishes).

    if the tribulation were not shortened, we'd all die.

    I think god had humankind figured out from the beginning. (we're all fallen angels from heaven)

    The creation story is rigged. Sure it is. It's his painting.
    Every painter brushes a clear lacquer on a blank canvas to protect the masterpiece.

    I'm glad you shared your words with us, Richard. We're in this world to support one another. Richard and Rose, you both have my support : )

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by ClockNumerology View Post
    Since history has shown that the heart of humankind is evil, don't you think that murder/rape/slavery was going to happen -even without yahweh's blueprint?
    Yes. But is that supposed to justify Yahweh commanding it?

    Hearts filled with true humanity would never command such things.

    Quote Originally Posted by ClockNumerology View Post
    the slave trade is more numerous now than in the 18th century. and america was more bible centered back then (1700's). If it's because of more people in the world as of 2012, then I suppose it's because the network of slavery has expanded to more pimps/owners/nations.
    Where did you get those stats? Please provide a link. But even if accurate, it is still a barabaric practice that is universally rejected by civilized peoples.

    The fact that people do wicked things does not justify an immoral law in the Bible.
    Quote Originally Posted by ClockNumerology View Post
    zechariah 14 "god instructs to rape the women"

    Any [porn] website will show how sick and twisted the fetishes that humankind has. (shackles/blindfolds/bondage/slave sex fetishes).
    How does that justify God promotion of such "twisted" activities?

    Quote Originally Posted by ClockNumerology View Post
    if the tribulation were not shortened, we'd all die.
    That's a gross misunderstanding of the passage. The Olivet Discourse was talking about the tribulation that led up to the destruction of the Temple in 70 AD.

    Quote Originally Posted by ClockNumerology View Post

    I'm glad you shared your words with us, Richard. We're in this world to support one another. Richard and Rose, you both have my support : )
    Thanks! That's good to know.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  6. #166
    Join Date
    May 2012
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    near Johannesburg, South Africa
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    So sorry to hear of your loss of faith in Christianity.

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    When I started this forum in 2007, I identified myself as a "Bible-believing Christian" in no uncertain terms. For example, here is how I described myself in my old FAQ (which remains on my old site for historical purposes):
    Are you a Christian? Protestant? Catholic?
    Praise God, I am a man saved by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Ephesian 2:8). I am a non-denominational blood-bought Bible-believing Trinitarian Christian. I believe that the true 'faith which was once delivered unto the saints' (Jude 3) is well stated in the early creeds of the church that Christ founded.
    Likewise, here is my testimony about the purpose of my website on the old homepage:
    To this end I labour, to glorify the Triune God; to glorify the Father Almighty, Creator of all, to glorify His Son Jesus Christ my Saviour and Hope, and to glorify the Giver of all divine gifts, my Comforter, Guide, Teacher and Friend, God the Holy Spirit. To You be the glory, thrice holy blessed God of Eternity! To You be the glory, now and forevermore. Amen. Amen. Amen.
    And here are the thanks I gave to Christ on my old About page:
    I remain eternally grateful to my Lord Jesus Christ, the King of the Universe, for shedding His Light upon me and guiding my path usually without my knowledge and giving me both the burning desire and the ability to proclaim the neverending wonders of His Holy Word. Oh! The wonders of His Grace! Had He left me to myself, doubtless Id be dead or wandering aimless and lost through this dark world. Thank you, my Lord!
    So, that's where I was in 2007. How is it possible that I now reject the faith I once believed with such passion? What changed? The answer is really pretty simple. I was "blinded" by the light I saw in the Bible. Anyone who has entered in to the Bible with believing eyes knows how it can capture the soul. It feels alive. It touches chords that resonate down into the deepest parts of ourselves. It is filled with light everywhere you look: the Gospel message shines with its numinous symbolic elements like the Alpha Omega, the Cross, the Dove, the Death and Resurrection of Christ, and on and on it goes. Who wouldn't want to believe such a story? Indeed, the believer wonders how anyone could resist such an amazing Gospel message. And beyond all that, I had the overwhelming witness of the Bible Wheel which seemed to confirm everything about the Bible as the very Word of God. All these thing blinded me to the "dark side" of the Bible. I simply "overlooked" all the problematic passages, errors, contradictions, and moral abominations that didn't fit with the amazingly glorious, and blinding, vision of the Bible as "God's Word."

    So here are three of the primary issues that conspired to finally convince me that the traditional Christian faith is not true.

    1) The Doctrine of Hell

    I cannot conceive of a good God who would design an eternal evil in which souls suffer eternal conscious torment. This is a central doctrine accepted by the vast majority of Christians.

    2) The Bible contains many errors, contradictions, logical absurdities, and moral abominations attributed to God.

    This point covers a very large class of problems. Many recent threads deal with them. The most significant to me are the moral abominations attributed to God, such as his command to kill all the men, women, and children of people in Canaan.

    3) God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers.
    This fact seems incontrovertible and it directly contradicts the central promises of the Bible. It was the "final straw" for me.

    I would be delighted to dig into these issues with anyone interested.

  7. #167
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    near Johannesburg, South Africa
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    So sorry to hear your loss of faith in Christianity.

    :yo:Let me nail my colours to the mast: I am a devout follower of the Lord Jesus Christ, and as such, I am deeply sorry to hear of your loss of faith in Christianity. However, as you sound like a deeply spiritual man I know that you will one day find what you are searching for spiritually.
    I believe that religion is a very private affair. My relationship with God is between God and me, so I no longer
    ponder and question certain passages of the Bible because I know that God exists. I have seen His glory.

    Regarding your grounds for disbelief in God within the Judaic-Christian tradition:-

    1. "The Doctrine of Hell"
    In my opinion, hell is not a locality in some alternative universe which we are relegated to after we die.
    Hell is a state of being which some people live daily. Hell is HERE AND NOW for many because they feel separated
    from God, their Creator. Hell is not living one's life to its full potential, not savouring the beautiful moments and seeing God actively at work in the world around us. Hell is always procrastinating until the ultimate dead line, DEATH.

    2. "The Bible contains many errors, contradictions, logical absurdities, and moral abominations attributed to God"
    Yes, you are right. But the Bible was, after all, written by rational men who were inspired by the Holy Spirit.
    But they were human beings interpreting in a distinctive way events that are themselves capable of being interpreted either historically or religiously. Your point indirectly brings up the problem of evil as far as the Judaic-Christian faith is concerned. Yes, the problem of evil poses a dilemma. If God is all loving, He would abolish evil. Yet evil still exists. I cannot give you a definitive answer on the problem of evil. However, I believe much of the evil in this world - human wickedness and madness - can always be traced back solely or partly to our misused freedom. It all boils down to a man's reaction to his given circumstances. That is his free choice.

    3. "God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers"
    I disagree. God has answered my prayers. (Most people would say answers to their prayers prove the reality of God. It's a fact that even the biggest sceptic would be moved to believe in God if their prayers were answered. But I cannot force someone to believe in God if that person lacks that belief.)
    I not only believe that God ALWAYS answers prayers, I KNOW it. If a man believes that God does not answer his prayers, this man is misunderstanding the will and nature of God. (A negative view of prayer is a self-fulfilling prophecy.)
    Our prayers are answered BEFORE we even ask them.

  8. #168
    Unregistered Guest

    You misunderstood: hell was not created for mankind

    Hell was not created for mankind but for the angels who chose to leave heaven, known as the fallen angels. God weeps over humanity going to hell more then anyone. He will not force humanity to live with Him in His Kingdom, but desires that all should have eternal life with Him and the entire family. Because there are only two Kingdoms: Kingdom of Light (His) and the Kingdom of Darkness (hell- led by satan), we choose which we want to be in relationship with.
    Choose Him as Father- His Kingdom is real. It is an incredible life!!!

  9. #169
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    RAM is still a Christian based on the fact that he said he never quit Full Preterism but quit Christianity. He is what I call a Full Preterist Non-Theist i.e. One who do not believe in the Christian God or the Bible but believes there may be a God and yet still hold on to the Full Preterist doctrine. Like someone sitting on the fence between Non-Theism and Full Preterism.

    God Blesses.
    Last edited by CWH; 05-03-2012 at 07:15 AM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    RAM is still a Christian based on the fact that he said he never quit Full Preterism but quit Christianity. He is what I call a Full Preterist Non-Theist i.e. One who do not believe in the Christian God or the Bible but believes there may be a God and yet still hold on to the Full Preterist doctrine. Like someone sitting on the fence between Non-Theism and Full Preterism.

    God Blesses.
    Hi CWH,

    I don't understand why you continue to say things that are both false and absurd. A person is not a "Christian" merely because they think that a particular eschatological view best fits the Biblical data. That's like saying I'm a Muslim because I say that the Koran teaches that Muhammad was a prophet. Anyone, whether a believer or not, can have a position on which eschatological system best fits the Biblical data.

    I've told you many times that Full Preterism is not perfect. There are problems with that view just like any other, which is why I concluded that Biblical eschatology is logically incoherent.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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