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  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    See that Richard! You are very intellectual and that's why I do not like debating against you and sister Rose. I'm just glad I'm on your side...I hope. Of course it appears you both disagree with me about man being the boss over woman, whereas I do not agree that the Bible teaches that.

    I suppose the best way to explain this is, Jesus is the boss (head) of the Church, and while He does set guidance, He is not a cruel or mean boss. The same with the man of the household. He may have the right according to God to be responsible for His entire family, and he may have to set precedence on a few family related things, but in both examples, the woman has a choice (Church or the Wife) to listen. It's not as though that God demands husbands to begin lashing at their spouses for failing to following any given precedence, rules, or guidance.

    And so a "boss" as sister Rose defines it, has total control, but this is not the case with the Church or the family, when it comes to the husband or Jesus controlling the Church. In both examples, the woman has the choice to be submissive; failing to do so doesn't not necessarily mean banishment, punishment, etc. But then we know anyone rejecting the will of Jesus as the Head of the church, will face some sort of recompense.

    I believe the family structure as designed by God is flawless, and perfect.
    Yet I can understand the apprehensions and biases against men because of how they've abused this responsibility for many many years. Even so, despite the imperfections of man and woman, the family design is flawless. If all lived by God's family design, our world would be perfect indeed.

    Anyways, just thought I'd throw in my final two cents on Roses's concerns about God charging the husband as the head of the household.

    Joe
    I'm so glad that you at least conceded it's a woman's choice to be submissive... though most fundamentalist Christian men would probably disagree with you...

    The family structure that I read about in the Bible is quite diverse and varied depending on whether you are reading the Old or New Testaments, so I don't hardly think one can call it flawless. Besides that, my whole point in showing the male bias of the Bible is to point out how obvious it is that the Bible was written by men who perceived "God" to be a masculine warrior type who thought women were property. Why should I believe what bronze age men say about "family structure" anyway?

    Women don't need men to be their head anymore then men need women to be their head, both men and women are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves. It's only when men and women come together to start a family that partnership comes into play...notice I said "partnership" where each member gives what they are most capable of. As long as one party thinks they are superior, a marriage can never be a true union.

    All the Best,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

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  2. #152
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    I'm so glad that you at least conceded it's a woman's choice to be submissive... though most fundamentalist Christian men would probably disagree with you...
    Yea I suppose that's a humorous way of looking at it. But as I've stated, I just don't see where is says that the man is the "boss" of the house. Submission isn't something defined as enslavement, or some form of bondage. I believe submission should be more defined as respect. But does this mean that the man does not have to respect his wife? Of course not! The husband and wife function as one body; that's ONE BODY. They are not two intellects making decisions for the house hold. They are one body making decisions as one family. At least, that's how it should be. There's no power struggle; at least there shouldn't be.

    Anyways, I see where you a coming from, but honestly sister Rose, I think you're being a bit harsh with this. Men and women are equally important. Yes the man and woman have different functions within the family, but it's not as though the man does them all. And no matter how you look at it, neither you, nor I could survive in this world without the opposite sex. Women to me are awesome and gorgeous, though that has been my weakness for a very long time.

    OK, back to the subject.

    The family structure that I read about in the Bible is quite diverse and varied depending on whether you are reading the Old or New Testaments, so I don't hardly think one can call it flawless. Besides that, my whole point in showing the male bias of the Bible is to point out how obvious it is that the Bible was written by men who perceived "God" to be a masculine warrior type who thought women were property. Why should I believe what bronze age men say about "family structure" anyway?
    Well in the OT, that was different. Their structure was based solely on Jewish law and structure. We are not part of the Jewish tradition; we are American, although the New Testament defines marriage as it was 2000 years ago. I do not believe that those rules and structures apply to our day and age. Men no longer have to "work the field" because we have machines doing it for us. Women are more than capable of working, and in most places, earn more money than men. In the Air Force, women receive additional funding every year to cover under-garment expenses. They are also given special privelidges that we men do not get when we deploy; they get their own rooms, their own bathrooms and showers. Meanwhile, all meat-packers have to share a room and shower, sometimes bunked 6 to 12 in a single tent.

    Women don't need men to be their head anymore then men need women to be their head, both men and women are perfectly capable of taking care of themselves. It's only when men and women come together to start a family that partnership comes into play...notice I said "partnership" where each member gives what they are most capable of. As long as one party thinks they are superior, a marriage can never be a true union.

    All the Best,
    Rose
    And I fully agree. We're not talking about 2000 years ago where men had to work hard in the field to ensure their food supply did not dwindle. Let's face it. Life today is much easier compared to ancient times. We buy groceries at a supermarket. They had to grow crops all year long, and store food for the winter; we don't have to do that. We also have farmers doing out work for us, so that we could specialize in other modern day work skills, i.e. aircraft, cards, buildings, etc. Women usually hold secretarial positions, management, and even mechanical. But when it comes to two parent families working, I have a deep concern. Children raised in two parent working families are not often successful. Without parental guidance, the children are often left unattended, thus contributing to the ever increasing disobedience we're seeing in children. My word, it's gotten so bad in schools now, that teachers are having to protect themselves. Students will walk right up to a teacher, pull his pants down, and nothing gets done about it. And I'm not talking about the students pants; there's a youtube video of a student pulling the pants down of a history teacher. In my day, that was reason for capital punishment. My butt would have been black and blue, and then I would have been expelled. Then again, that kind of behavior (pulling teachers pants down) was not thought of in our day.

    Well, I hope this discussion hasn't bruised our relationship sister Rose. I've been with you and Richard for a long time, and I certainly don't want to see our relationship tarnished. I'd leave the Biblewheel if I ever knew that this was happening.

    God bless you both my friends. I look forward to seeing you both re-establish your hearts with God.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  3. #153
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    Smile

    Hi Richard,
    post 150

    Gil > Why do you blame God for all the crap, wars, diseases , famines
    and deaths that plague this world?

    It says that God rested from all his work on the seventh day.
    He had turned over his creation to Man.
    Man fell and everything since has became a hell upon this Earth.
    It has been the thoughts of Man, made manifest in the world.
    Man could have created/Bara'ed a better place. He did not.
    Blame Man and not God.

    How man evolved from all the lesser creatures that had life within them
    to our present form and how we are now being transformed into a new creature through the last Adam Jesus Christ was all predestined within
    his plan and purpose for Man.
    What does predestined mean to you anyway.
    You are into the biological side of mans beginnings, I would guess.
    I don't think you have abanded the God which had created.
    It is in the evolution of life that is proclaimed by the Bible.
    Designed from the beginning and set in motion, is the way that I would put it.
    God rested on the seventh day and the clock kept running.
    When God rested, life did not cease to exist. It remained in the Earth from which all things were formed.( this is bara'ing).
    There have been many leaps within the biological forms of many creatures.
    An accident. I hardly think so. Predestined. Yes , through design and the biological clock of time.
    God did not have to get up from his rest. All had been pre-programmed, to use modern lingo.
    So things when a little haywire (logging term) within the first Adam.
    A seed had already been set into the system for such a departure from his plan.
    Call it a mutation for all I care, but the fact remains that from that seed would come a new Man. The last Adam.
    A correction had been made to put man back on the right path.
    We through the last Adam are to be those new creatures here upon earth to start the job of being a husbandman and caretaker over that which had been created for him and through him.
    The first Adam blew it, and the last Adam did not.
    There is one further step up the ladder and that is to take on new bodies, not as spacesuits ( I always thought that it was a good way to look at the body of flesh) for this environment but for a grandeur existence within Gods plan within a different environment.

    Just as the moon walkers would say, This is one small step for man and a giant leap for mankind. So was Jesus , that would become the Christ.
    It was probably one small step for God and a giant leap for mankind.

    There was to be a new beginning for man in the flesh.
    God rested on the seventh day , and ushered in the rest of his Son after he had accomplished his own work.
    Adam ( the old man ) in the Garden was the First Creation to be made manifest and Jesus Christ was to become the New Creation.
    As the old creation was the natural man ,the New Creation would be the Spiritual man. Not a Spirit, but the New Man.
    We are now within both ,the Old Creation and the New Creation.
    Christians are to combat the Evil that befalls the Earth. This includes war, disease, plagues and all things that are of the Darkness , not bitch about them and blame God.

    Joe > quote: [God bless you both my friends. I look forward to seeing you both re-establish your hearts with God.
    Joe ]

    Gil > Couldn't have said it better.
    Well, maybe a little added.
    Do not leave Jesus Christ out of the equation.
    If you have not me ,you have not the Father either, sayeth the Son.

    Gil

  4. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gil View Post
    Hi Richard,
    post 150

    Gil > Why do you blame God for all the crap, wars, diseases , famines
    and deaths that plague this world?

    It says that God rested from all his work on the seventh day.
    He had turned over his creation to Man.
    Man fell and everything since has became a hell upon this Earth.
    It has been the thoughts of Man, made manifest in the world.
    Man could have created/Bara'ed a better place. He did not.
    Blame Man and not God.
    Hi Gil,

    I don't "blame God" for anything. I've just been following the Christian ideas about God to their logical conclusions. And I really don't think I've ever "blamed" God for diseases, I just observed that he let everyone die of them and that the only reason we are doing better is because we humans have discovered antibiotics.

    So why is it, do you think, that God didn't do anything to help his ignorant children do better? Isn't he like an absentee parent?

    And why do you say that man "could have created/Bara'ed a better place?" I ask because I seem to recall that the verb "bara" is used only in reference to activities of God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gil View Post
    How man evolved from all the lesser creatures that had life within them
    to our present form and how we are now being transformed into a new creature through the last Adam Jesus Christ was all predestined within
    his plan and purpose for Man.
    What does predestined mean to you anyway.
    You are into the biological side of mans beginnings, I would guess.
    I don't think you have abanded the God which had created.
    It is in the evolution of life that is proclaimed by the Bible.
    Designed from the beginning and set in motion, is the way that I would put it.
    The meaning of "predestined" in the Bible? That could be a very long conversation. It could mean everything from the Calvinist idea that God ordained "whatsoever comes to pass" to the idea that God has a "plan" that he is able to ensure will come to pass despite creaturely freedom because of his infinite wisdom. His "omnipotence" helps I guess, but I think he accomplishes it through wisdom. That's what I would have said when I was a Christian anyway. But the problem now is I don't conceive of a theist style God who "does" things like an finite agent with a "will."

    As for the origin of life - that's anyone's guess. The solution might be found in a monism that unifies the classic dualism of mind and matter into two sides of a single Matter/Mind coin. This then could have an interesting effect upon our conception of reality, and hence the origin of life.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gil View Post
    God rested on the seventh day and the clock kept running.
    When God rested, life did not cease to exist. It remained in the Earth from which all things were formed.( this is bara'ing).
    On the other hand, God never rested in the way that you suggest. Jesus used this to defend himself against charges of breaking the sabbath:
    John 5:16 And for this reason the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because He was doing these things on the Sabbath. 17 But He answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I Myself am working."
    Quote Originally Posted by Gil View Post
    There have been many leaps within the biological forms of many creatures.
    An accident. I hardly think so. Predestined. Yes , through design and the biological clock of time.
    God did not have to get up from his rest. All had been pre-programmed, to use modern lingo.
    Hummmm ... I think your theory has a few bugs in it. There is nothing about evolution that supports the idea of it being "pre-programmed." The simpler organisms precede the more complex, so the more complex (which have more DNA) could not have been programmed into the simpler organisms.

    How exactly did this "pre-programming" work? Where was the information stored? How was it implemented?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gil View Post
    So things when a little haywire (logging term) within the first Adam.
    A seed had already been set into the system for such a departure from his plan.
    Call it a mutation for all I care, but the fact remains that from that seed would come a new Man. The last Adam.
    A correction had been made to put man back on the right path.
    We through the last Adam are to be those new creatures here upon earth to start the job of being a husbandman and caretaker over that which had been created for him and through him.
    The first Adam blew it, and the last Adam did not.
    How exactly did the first Adam blow it? Why did it matter if he ate the fruit? How did that cause his death? According to the story, it was God, not the fruit, that killed Adam. So I don't see yet how your story all works out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gil View Post
    There is one further step up the ladder and that is to take on new bodies, not as spacesuits ( I always thought that it was a good way to look at the body of flesh) for this environment but for a grandeur existence within Gods plan within a different environment.
    That's a nice idea and all, but how do you know it is true? From whence cometh this knowledge?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gil View Post
    Just as the moon walkers would say, This is one small step for man and a giant leap for mankind. So was Jesus , that would become the Christ.
    It was probably one small step for God and a giant leap for mankind.
    Sounds a lot like Richard Bucke's discussion in his book Cosmic Consciousness.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gil View Post
    There was to be a new beginning for man in the flesh.
    God rested on the seventh day , and ushered in the rest of his Son after he had accomplished his own work.
    Adam ( the old man ) in the Garden was the First Creation to be made manifest and Jesus Christ was to become the New Creation.
    As the old creation was the natural man ,the New Creation would be the Spiritual man. Not a Spirit, but the New Man.
    We are now within both ,the Old Creation and the New Creation.
    Christians are to combat the Evil that befalls the Earth. This includes war, disease, plagues and all things that are of the Darkness , not bitch about them and blame God.
    Well, that's quite a story, but it's not what everyone else says .... so where did you learn it? It is your own interpretation of the Bible?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post

    Well, I hope this discussion hasn't bruised our relationship sister Rose. I've been with you and Richard for a long time, and I certainly don't want to see our relationship tarnished. I'd leave the Biblewheel if I ever knew that this was happening.

    God bless you both my friends. I look forward to seeing you both re-establish your hearts with God.

    Joe
    Hi Joe,

    No worries, there are no hard feelings whatsoever on my part. I've been enjoying our conversation and the freedom to speak my mind.

    All the Best,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  6. #156
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post

    [INDENT]1) The Doctrine of Hell
    I cannot conceive of a good God who would design an eternal evil in which souls suffer eternal conscious torment. This is a central doctrine accepted by the vast majority of Christians.
    There is a thread on the topic on the Carm forum at this time.
    In Isiah 28, Ephraim(Northern kingdom tribes of Israel after Solomon divided into two, which was called Jerusalem, Judah was the Southern kingdom) makes a covenant with Death and Hell. How can this be? Death and Hell in Bible prophecy are symbolic representations of physical death and the underworld? How could a covenant be made with these two things it makes no sense? They can't possibly be symbolizing gentile warmongers can they? Oh yes they can. And they do.

    Isa 28:14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

    15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell(shĕ'owl = underworld) are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

    16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone(Christ), a tried stone(Christ), a precious corner stone(Christ), a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

    17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

    18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

    Death and Hell are the symbols of the Gentiles that Jerusalem makes covenants with, who turn on them just like always, and war with them and destroy them, or take them into captivity, just as God always allows because of Jerusalem's constant disobedience.
    Sounds like 'hell' is partly referring to living the present life on false foundations.... perhaps similar in concept to Nimrods 'religions'.

    I don't know if Isaiah 28 can be used as the sole or primary text.

    There still is the concept that if there is a requirement of being born of the Spirit [supernatural in the Creator/Lover] then there is a condition absent of being reborn in the Spirit of Christ.
    Last edited by EndtimesDeut32/70AD; 08-27-2011 at 12:00 PM.
    1Thess 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    If you are oppressed and enslaved by religious law, you may have a tendency to oppress, enslave and attempt to lord over others who are free.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by EndtimesDeut32/70AD View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    1) The Doctrine of Hell
    I cannot conceive of a good God who would design an eternal evil in which souls suffer eternal conscious torment. This is a central doctrine accepted by the vast majority of Christians.
    There is a thread on the topic on the Carm forum at this time.
    In Isiah 28, Ephraim(Northern kingdom tribes of Israel after Solomon divided into two, which was called Jerusalem, Judah was the Southern kingdom) makes a covenant with Death and Hell. How can this be? Death and Hell in Bible prophecy are symbolic representations of physical death and the underworld? How could a covenant be made with these two things it makes no sense? They can't possibly be symbolizing gentile warmongers can they? Oh yes they can. And they do.

    Isa 28:14 Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

    15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell(shĕ'owl = underworld) are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

    16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone(Christ), a tried stone(Christ), a precious corner stone(Christ), a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

    17 Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

    18 And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

    Death and Hell are the symbols of the Gentiles that Jerusalem makes covenants with, who turn on them just like always, and war with them and destroy them, or take them into captivity, just as God always allows because of Jerusalem's constant disobedience.
    Sounds like 'hell' is partly referring to living the present life on false foundations.... perhaps similar in concept to Nimrods 'religions'.

    I don't know if Isaiah 28 can be used as the sole or primary text.
    That's a an interesting approach. A better approach for me would be to focus on the fact that Christ abolished death and hell, which is nicely symbolized by Death and Hell being cast into the lake of fire. And this could be expanded by noting that there would be no "place" for hell if God is the ""all in all." But these are just standard arguments for the Christian Universalist position which most Christians reject as rank heresy. And since you posted a link to CARM, it is noteworthy that CARM allows discussion of all topics except two: Satanism and Universalism! Go figure, eh? This exemplifies another reason to toss Christianity. It does nothing but drive people insane arguing over arcane doctrines.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  8. #158
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    The Three Issues

    Hello,

    I read your Thread and thought I might respond.

    I am a Physicist so I might have something in common with you. I am a very practical and down to earth person who has demanded real and practical results - I finally got them.

    1) The Doctrine of Hell - Hell is not eternal, but punishment until ones debts are paid. The Soul is not necessarily eternal. The Soul (individual personality) has the potential to become immortal through Salvation. Only the essence - the spirit is immortal.

    (Mat 10:28 KJV) And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

    (Psa 62:1 KJV) To the chief Musician, to Jeduthun, A Psalm of David. Truly my soul waiteth upon God: from him cometh my salvation.

    2) The Bible contains many errors... etc.

    Ex. Gods order to kill all the people of Canaan - if you did a thorough study you would discover these people were of the line of the seed of Satan - genetic descentents of the fallen angels (giants and offshoots) called the nephilim - mutant genetic hybrids. Gods orders were to get rid of all the remaining bad seed - inorder to keep the genetic line leading to Christ pure.

    As you recall God brought the great flood in an attempt to wipe out the impure genetic lines of which only Noah and his immediate family remained pure.

    Note: Chuck Missler has a good study on the Nephilim.

    Yes the English KJV is not perfect - No Translation is perfect or infallible by definition! Only the original underlying texts in their original languages adjusted for time - change of word meaning and cultural context are perfectly accurate - thats life! And then we have to overcome our own ignorance and immaturity - again thats life.

    The Bible is a magnificent Puzzle to be solved and decoded on many levels of dimensionality.

    The Bible was not intended to be fully immediately discernable unless and until one studies diligently. I have only been able to do my serious research with the aid of a computer. Again I suggest bible researchers like Chuck Missler.

    When the proper studies are done - it becomes evident that all the types of objections that you are making go away and are resolved satisfactorily.

    3) God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers. -

    This is my area of research and expertise.

    As I grew up I watched my mother pray and have prayers answered on a daily basis - sometimes absolutely miraculus things. But it never worked for other members of the family.

    I began an initial study of faith in 1980 and did not start getting results until 1998 and 1999. Since that time I have studied every subject that I came across that seemed even remotely related in the quest to figure out the secrets of practical and functional faith.

    In school I studied Physics, Mathematics and Electronics.

    I independently studied, faith, the paranormal, magic(k) and witchcraft, Radionics, Metaphysics and Mind Science, Mind control, Physical Health issues, Psychology, Philosophy, became a Scientologist, and became a trained hypnotherapist - all in the quest to understand the mechanics of functional faith. (not necessarily all subjects are listed or in this order)

    I eventually solved the problem and have a good understanding of how faith and prayer practically and functionally work.

    The Bible asks the question "Will the Son of Man find faith in the earth when he returns?" Unfortunately the answer is pretty much no!

    Real Faith is not taught in most of the churches for the most part anymore. There are a few that do teach more or less functional faith like Kenneth Hagin, Kenneth Copeland and the like.

    My research has allowed me to develop a methodology to determine what each individual needs to make Faith work.

    I now have answered prayers daily as I pray constantly, consistently, and instantly as needed and directed by the Bible, and it really does work!

    My answer to you is if you really want to understand and get faith to work - you may need personal guidance and mentoring of the basics. I would be happy to assist you on an individual basis if you or anyone wants to contact me. Real Faith requires mentoring!

    The subject of faith can be very complicated and yet when you finally understand it, it is very simple - even if not easy to get working.

    In regards to faith, each person is different and needs the appropriate tweaks - so to speak.

    Feel free to contact me.

    I can be reached at cer1056@yahoo.com please reference the Subject as "How to make faith work".


    In the Peace of Jesus Christ,

    Regan

  9. #159
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    Hi Regan,

    Welcome to our forum!



    I like your organized style. It makes it easy to respond.

    1) The Doctrine of hell - I would have agreed with you on this point when I was a Christian. Indeed, Matt 10:28 was a verse that I frequently appealed to.

    2) The Bible contains many errors... etc. - There is no biblical evidence that the Canaanites were the physical offspring of Satan and/or aliens who are really fallen angels. Chuck Missler has some interesting teachings. I have followed his ministry for years. But I do not consider him a reliable teacher by a long shot. His ideas about aliens as nephalim have little biblical support. He speculates wildly which is a primary source of many false doctrines.

    As for errors in translations - that is no concern to me. I read both Greek and Hebrew. The problems are with what the Bible actually states, not with translations. For example, there is no solid dome "firmament" upholding the waters that are "above." There was no global flood that killed all people and animals except those on the ark, etc.

    I agree that the Bible is a magnificent puzzle - so magnificent in fact that every person uses the same pieces to construct entirely different and mutually contradictory pictures.

    Now I'm sorry, but I must disagree with your assertion that "When the proper studies are done - it becomes evident that all the types of objections that you are making go away and are resolved satisfactorily." I've been doing "proper studies" for years and that has only made the objections all the more "evident." I would be very interseted in your solutions in case I've missed something.

    3) God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers. -

    You say God answers your prayers. Almost all Christians say the same thing. And Benny Hinn fills his carnival stage full with devout Christians who realy believe God miraculously healed them. Such testimonies are a dime a dozen, and they all have one thing in common - they cannot be verified. Hank Hanegraaff asked Benny Hinn for his three best miracles out of the thousands that were "performed" on his stage. None could be verified. So if God has been answering your prayers, it only proves my point. He does not, as a general rule, answer prayers. If he does it for you, it is an anomaly as you yourself implicitly admit when you say that you "eventually solved the problem" of how to get God to do for you what he refuses to do for the vast majority of his children when they simply ask according to the promises of the Bible. The fact that you had to develop a "methodolgy" to get God to answer your prayers seems to be the opposite of the Biblical teaching that God is our father. I never had to develop a "methodolgy" to get my father to answer me when I spoke to him. I think most Christians would be very disturbed by the concept of having a relationship with God based on a "method."

    I hope my frank answers don't put you off. I am very open to correction and hope we can have a good converstation.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  10. #160
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    10

    Well Well - a deep subject

    I would further discuss the third point.

    Since you suggest by the existence of this site that you are more interested in TRUTH than the common fallacy of just appearing to be right - I will go further.

    You throw thow baby out with the bath water.

    To be smugly right on your own web site where you have the power to cut me off or not respond is obviously yours to choice -since I must at the risk of offending you, I will risk being a little impolitely BLUNT with the possibility that I might actually get through. SOMETIMES YOU HAVE TO HIT THE STUBBORN MULE OVER THE HEAD - JUST TO GET ITS ATTENTION.

    You bio says you studied physics and mathematics.

    If you got anything out of it you know that there are rules of how the Universe functions. The Bible says God is a god of Order.

    I would suggest that God is the ultimate scientist operating by the rules he established. And there may very well be a hierarchical set of rules where dominance is displayed.

    A child learns to speak by experience and practice - by emulating those who know how to speak.

    By observation it has been observed that some young children in an attempt to learn how to speak - speak backwards at first (they get it all wrong), this is called reverse speech and has been repeatedly verifed by recording young childrens speech and playing it backwards to hear it forewards.

    Children have to learn the syntax (order and sequence) of speech by trial and error - through first hand experience of What Works. They can' learn about it in a book. Even the smartest children have to learn speech the same old fashion way how to get the direction of speech correct. There are no magic formulas, just learning by positive results of what finally works.

    Logic and Reason are not an end all to life or research. Certain things have to be experienced first hand to understand them, let alone explain them to someone else who doesn't have a clue.

    My mother for all her attempts to teach people - could not teach us Prayer and faith by telling us how, or quoting verses. Her answer was to basicly read, study, and pray like her for 20 years to learn how - first hand.

    Bandler and Grinder, psychologists, wished to learn the secrets of the most famous 20th century psychologist hypnotist Milton Erikson. They asked him hundreds of questions about his methods and got no where. Only when they studied him by first hand observation and then began questioning him about what he was thinking in side his head did they eventually break through. Not even the eminent Dr. Erickson knew exactly how to explain what he was doing all the time - he just knew that it WORKED! These two men created the field of NLP - Neuro Linguistic Programming: the study of modeling excellence in performance.

    The very fact that you are so intelligent and mentally sharp in logic and reason is actually a real detriment to people such as myself and yourself!

    Logic and Reason can very unconveniently paint you into a box where there are no windows or answers to what appear contradictory. Paradox are apparent contradictions that many times eventually turn out to be true.


    The study of Physics is about Forces and Energy.

    As a Physicist - the bottom line answer is always: what works!

    Are you really interested in the Real answer of how Prayer gets answered or would you persist in the immature and ignorant answer of - I don't like the idea that there is a method to the way things work!

    And just because most modern people don't understand how it works is no answer. Just because a million flies don't understand that eating crap is bad doesn't mean that any of them are right.

    Ask the US Patent Office if there is anything to Method? ALL Patents are based in METHOD that WORKS! Thatís 100% of the time.

    You didn't do the research and write the book by guessing - you found what worked and executed it very well - I might add.

    I have not and probably could not do what you have done. But apparently you have neatly painted yourself into a nice box about your perception of reality - or lack of it.

    Just because you found something that You or most people can't do does not invalidate it.

    Getting mad because you failed at something the first time or even 10 times does not prove that something is WRONG! Just that you got it wrong.

    In regards to the Western Mentality of Science - they preach that you must always be Skeptical. They are just plain wrong! The correct approach is to be neutral or unbiased and let the research and results show you the way reality works.

    The bottom line is - don't prejudge without first hand experience.

    You have the option of learning one of the greatest secrets in the world or you can neatly declare that you are right and dismiss this issue out of hand.

    I come to you in the Christian tradition of Charity offering to freely teach you what probably no one else can offer.

    Are you going to honestly tell me that you don't want to know the answers to this subject of Prayer and Faith?

    Did you know its kind of hard to talk to someone if they Wonít Plug the telephone into the wall. And then you can ask the question whose fault or problem is it?

    Well thatís my two cents worth.

    Do as you will.

    I ask your pardon if I have been forward in this response.

    Regan

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