Why I quit Christianity

[Richard Amiel McGough]

In the same way that John the Baptist was not recognized as having been the coming of Elijah that was prophecied, Jesus, having already come (second coming), is not recognized.
That is because of looking at the outward world for that coming.
It is an inner experience.

Joh 21:21 Peter seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do?
Joh 21:22 Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me.
Joh 21:23 Then went this saying abroad among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, He shall not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee?

John was promised the Baptism of fire. His vision is described in The book of Revelation. That baptism opened his consciousness/perception to see the second coming. If he saw it, it happened.

Mt 20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
Mt 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father.

We do not recognize the second coming just as no one recognized the messenger sent to prepare the way.
Repentance is the changing of mind or perception necessary in order to see things differently.

Bob

That makes a lot of sense to me. There were two "comings" of Christ after his passion. One in the FIRE of the Holy Spirit that baptized believers, and the other in the FIRE of Judgment that destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple. This fits well with what John the Baptist preached:

Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

These two elements - the Fire of the Spirit upon believers and the Fire of Judgment upon unbelievers are also found in the prophecies that predicted the ministry of John the Baptist:

Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger [John the Baptist], and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord [Christ], whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. 2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: 3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

The same fire that refines and purifies believers destroys the unbelievers in judgment. Thus we understand the final prophecy of the Old Testament:

Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts. 4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. 5 ¶ Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Note the specific elements of Malachi's prophecy are repeated by the warning given by John the Baptist. It seems to me that evidence is total, complete, and incontrovertible that these prophecies were fulfilled in the first century.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

It wouldn't make sense because if Revelation would have been written before 70AD then Jesus must have mentioned Jerusalem by name as a warning.

What are you talking about? It explicitly identifies Jerusalem in Revelation 11:8 as the "Great City" where Christ was crucified. It also teaches us to understand that Jerusalem is represent by Sodom and Egypt. Thus it makes perfect sense that the Great City Apostate Jerusalem is also represent by Babylon in Rev 17-18. This is confirmed in Rev 18:21-24 which begins with a prophecy from Jeremiah against Apostate Jerusalem and ends by declaring the fulfillment of Christ's prophecy against Apostate Jerusalem in which he declared that "all the blood of the righteous" would be found in her. The case seems airtight to me.

[Bob May]

That makes a lot of sense to me. There were two "comings" of Christ after his passion. One in the FIRE of the Holy Spirit that baptized believers, and the other in the FIRE of Judgment that destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple. This fits well with what John the Baptist preached:

Matthew 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come? 8 Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

These two elements - the Fire of the Spirit upon believers and the Fire of Judgment upon unbelievers are also found in the prophecies that predicted the ministry of John the Baptist:

Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger [John the Baptist], and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord [Christ], whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. 2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: 3 And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

The same fire that refines and purifies believers destroys the unbelievers in judgment. Thus we understand the final prophecy of the Old Testament:

Malachi 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. 2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall. 3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts. 4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments. 5 ¶ Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Note the specific elements of Malachi's prophecy are repeated by the warning given by John the Baptist. It seems to me that evidence is total, complete, and incontrovertible that these prophecies were fulfilled in the first century.

One thing I would disagree on (and it is not all that important) is that the Pentecost was the Air aspect of the three-fold one baptism process.

Jesus breathed on the disciples and they believed.
Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Joh 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
Joh 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

Thomas would not believe until he also saw him. (Or recieve the breath) But with the breath the others did.

Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

At Pentecost there came a rushing mighty wind. No one saw Jesus but there was plenty of evidence of his presence. What are the Signs in heaven and wonders in the earth??? They mention miracles separately.
I believe those signs and wonders are the things I have been pointing out here on this forum.
Synchronicities and the witnessing of the three that bear witness in the earth. Spirit, Water and blood.
To someone without the baptism of Air it is foolishness. To someone with the Baptism of Air it is signs in heaven and wonders in the earth that are telling us "Surely God is in this place and I knew it not."

Ac 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Ac 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Ac 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.


Ac 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
Ac 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
Ac 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Though there is the element of fire "Tongues of flame", I believe the element of air is the predominant aspect of the Baptism.
Interestingly enough (if you count it correctly) these men heard 17 different languages coming form one mouth.
Joseph was 17 years old when he recieved the Coat of Many colors because his "Father" loved him more than his brothers.
This also, in my opinion, relates to this aspect (Air) of the one Baptism.

Nathanael was promised this experience when Jesus first met him. The same experience that Jacob's ladder symbolises. "Surely God is in this place and I knew it not." "This place" is wherever we are. This was fulfilled at Pentecost. And recorded in Acts chapter 1.

John was promised the next "phase" of the one Baptism. That baptism that Jesus was experiencing. This was fulfilled and recorded in the book of Revelation.

But it is all one baptism. A cleansing process that refines us and makes it possible to see and hear the "Finer" things going on around us. Those things that vare veiled by the obvious.

Mem, Aleph, Shin. Water, Air, Fire. All Spirit.
Together they spell fire. One Baptism.

Bob

[kathryn]

One thing I would disagree on (and it is not all that important) is that the Pentecost was the Air aspect of the three-fold one baptism process.

Jesus breathed on the disciples and they believed.
Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Joh 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
Joh 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

Thomas would not believe until he also saw him. But with the breath the others did.

At Pentecost there came a rushing mighty wind.

Ac 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Ac 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Ac 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.


Ac 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
Ac 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
Ac 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Though there is the element of fire "Tongues of flame", I believe the element of air is the predominant aspect of the Baptism.
Interestingly enough (if you count it correctly) these men heard 17 different languages coming form one mouth.
Joseph was 17 years old when he recieved the Coat of Many colors because his "Father" loved him more than his brothers.
This also, in my opinion, relates to this aspect (Air) of the one Baptism.

Nathanael was promised this experience when Jesus first met him. The same experience that Jacob's ladder symbolises. "Surely God is in this place and I knew it not." "This place" is wherever we are. This was fulfilled at Pentecost. And recorded in Acts chapter 1.

John was promised the next "phase" of the one Baptism. That baptism that Jesus was experiencing. This was fulfilled and recorded in the book of Revelation.

But it is all one baptism. A cleansing process that refines us and makes it possible to see and hear the "Finer" things going on around us. Those things that vare veiled by the obvious.

Mem, Aleph, Shin. Water, Air, Fire. All Spirit.
Together they spell fire. One Baptism.

Bob

Thanks Bob...and may I add that the 1st century disciples were only given the "earnest" or downpayment of the Holy Spirit...not the fullness.
It is "one" baptism as it is "one" crossing of the Jordan. It is a 3 part process.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

One thing I would disagree on (and it is not all that important) is that the Pentecost was the Air aspect of the three-fold one baptism process.

Jesus breathed on the disciples and they believed.
Joh 20:22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Joh 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Joh 20:24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.
Joh 20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

Thomas would not believe until he also saw him. (Or recieve the breath) But with the breath the others did.

Joh 20:29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

At Pentecost there came a rushing mighty wind. No one saw Jesus but there was plenty of evidence of his presence. What are the Signs in heaven and wonders in the earth??? They mention miracles separately.
I believe those signs and wonders are the things I have been pointing out here on this forum.
Synchronicities and the witnessing of the three that bear witness in the earth. Spirit, Water and blood.
To someone without the baptism of Air it is foolishness. To someone with the Baptism of Air it is signs in heaven and wonders in the earth that are telling us "Surely God is in this place and I knew it not."

Ac 2:2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
Ac 2:3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
Ac 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.


Ac 2:6 Now when this was noised abroad, the multitude came together, and were confounded, because that every man heard them speak in his own language.
Ac 2:7 And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying one to another, Behold, are not all these which speak Galilaeans?
Ac 2:8 And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?
Though there is the element of fire "Tongues of flame", I believe the element of air is the predominant aspect of the Baptism.
Interestingly enough (if you count it correctly) these men heard 17 different languages coming form one mouth.
Joseph was 17 years old when he recieved the Coat of Many colors because his "Father" loved him more than his brothers.
This also, in my opinion, relates to this aspect (Air) of the one Baptism.

Nathanael was promised this experience when Jesus first met him. The same experience that Jacob's ladder symbolises. "Surely God is in this place and I knew it not." "This place" is wherever we are. This was fulfilled at Pentecost. And recorded in Acts chapter 1.

John was promised the next "phase" of the one Baptism. That baptism that Jesus was experiencing. This was fulfilled and recorded in the book of Revelation.

But it is all one baptism. A cleansing process that refines us and makes it possible to see and hear the "Finer" things going on around us. Those things that vare veiled by the obvious.

Mem, Aleph, Shin. Water, Air, Fire. All Spirit.
Together they spell fire. One Baptism.

Bob

I very much like your analysis. The three letters Aleph, Mem, and Shin, are defined in the Sepher Yetzirah as the "mother letters" and they represent Air, Fire, and Water and Scripture uses all three to represent God's Spirit. Very good stuff.

But I don't understand why you separate the Fire from the Air at Pentecost since the sign of the Spirit was the divided tongues of fire that rested on the disciples.

Acts 2:1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place. 2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting. 3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them. 4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

And we have the Water element implied in the mocker's response (New Wine being a variation of Water that is also used as a symbol of the Spirit) and then again in the metaphor of God "pouring out his spirit" like water:

Acts 2:12-18 12 And they were all amazed, and were in doubt, saying one to another, What meaneth this? 13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine. 14 ¶ But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words: 15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day. 16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

And the reference to the Number 3 links directly to the Holy Spirit which is the Third Person of the Trinity. And this is confirmed again on a grand scale in the 3000 that were saved that day:

Acts 2:41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

And it is also interesting that Peter reference all four elements in the "judgment" aspect of the day of the Lord:

19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood (water), and fire, and vapour (air) of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Fascinating stuff!

[Gil]

Hi Bob,


Bob > [ Mt 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Lu 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. ]


Gil >

The Jews could not be born again, even through the promised seed that was to be within the Holy Spirit of God. They were of the First Adam, the Father of their generations that had fallen. They could not re-enter into their Mothers womb over again.
They, by changing their minds about the Law, that was of the old covenant of death they would become as little children, that they may enter the Kingdom of Heaven, that was within them. They as little children would be adopted by Jesus Christ and cared for as if they were his own. There was to be a New Adam, not of the flesh as the first had taken on, but a Spiritual Adam, that was of the Spirit of his Father.
All after post AD70 are not as little children but are within spiritual seeds.
The promised seeds that were to be of the spiritual loins of the last Adam Jesus Christ.
The old generations of the first Adam in the flesh that had became the children of Israel would come to an end through the flesh of Jesus at the cross.
Even when Jesus was in the flesh, he was within a spiritual seed also.
A seed that would have to pass through the death at the cross , that is may
Take on a Body that was not formed of the dust of the earth but formed as a new heaven and earth ( mind and body) at his resurrection.
We are to be the children of Jesus Christ resurrected, and not as adopted children as were the fleshly generations of his own people.

Something new was to be seen through Jesus Christ and his messenger Paul.

It is within the BOC that we are now being transformed within a spiritual seed, taking on the mind of Christ and being formed in his own image.
We to must pass through physical death that we emerge from the seed
And be made manifest in his likeness.

In Heaven, Jesus Christ has already turned the Kingdom of Heaven that was of the Jews back over to his Father, that all in Christ may be as one whole.
They and we are now under the sovereignty of God, the Father of us All, in that, it was and is ,he who giveth life unto all that are living.

Bob > [ This conversion begins with water baptism. NOT the ceremony, The Experience of Conversion. O making our spirit (the TV reciever) able to recieve from The Spirit (the internet) in order to recieve the voices coming from that invisible Net.]

Gil > I see it a little different.
The water Baptism was a cleansing of the mind (from the Law) that they may become converted.( become again as little children.)

According to Paul, all of these things were to be made complete and finished through Christ.

Even the Eucharist. It to was unto the ( Disciples) children of Israel as a remembrance of Jesus who would become Jesus Christ ,at their last supper. His Body that would go to the cross.
He broke up the loaf of bread and gave its parts to them, along with the new wine that was to be his blood.
A remembrance of him until all was finished and made complete.
All was completed after the destruction of Jerusalem and its Temple system.

We now in Christ have became his bodies of flesh and bone. Jesus had shed his blood at the cross and at his resurrection his new life spiritual blood was the Spirit of life that quickened his Body.
We to are quickened by his spirit.
Why should we have to remember his body and blood when we are now the fleshly parts of his Body as a whole now upon this earth.

We are now as Jesus was in the flesh. There was no sin found within him.
Neither is there any sin to be found within us as a part of his Body.
We are found to be innocent ( as in a court of Law). Found not guilty.

Even though we in the flesh still have the principalities of the air
To contend with, the cross was sufficient to do away with sin.

Though we are still in the flesh, we are not of the flesh but of the Spirit.

The BOC is that loaf and as being parts of that whole Body we are already
In a most real way in a continual remembrance.
Why should we take a wafer and wine when we already are that wafer and wine.

The receiving of the Holy Spirit during the interim period was at the first by breathing it into and then by the laying on of hands.

The taking on of the Holy Spirit which was in Jesus Christ is now realized through Faith in both the Father and Son.

It is a free gift that we only need to reach out and accept it.

We may enter unto the BOC on our own, as it is a individual calling
That comes from within.

We need not confess our wrong doings to another mediator outside
Of Jesus Christ. We are within Christ , and only through him may we know
Or see the Father.
As a mental picture, we are attached to Jesus Christ and Jesus Christ is
Attached to the Father. Attached as umbilical cord to umbilical cord, the one to the other. The Spirit of God the Father ,quickeneth the new man
With the eternal life found only in him.

Bob > [ The second coming is an individual spiritual experience. It is a "future" event only to the extent that we have not yet experienced it. But maybe we are experiencing it without acknowledging it. Elijah may have been hearing the still small voice for a very long time without knowing what it was. He may have been thinking it was his own thoughts.
And then, at the opening of the cave one day he realized what exactly was happening. ]

Gil > What everyone is calling the second coming has already taken place.
Jesus Christ has returned in the Spirit of his Father.
His presence is only to be seen and experienced by those of Faith in the Father and the Son.
They expect a material/physical, bodily coming as an individual.
He comes to each, one at a time ,and he dwells within them.
It is our body of flesh, that is the material/physical flesh through which he returns in.

Gil > These may seem the same ,but they are not.

Converted

1994 // epistrefw // epistrepho // ep-ee-stref'-o //

from 1909 and 4762 ; TDNT - 7:722,1093; v

AV - turn 16, be converted 6, return 6, turn about 4,
turn again 3, misc 4; 39

1) transitively
1a) to turn to
1a1) to the worship of the true God
1b) to cause to return, to bring back
1b1) to the love and obedience of God
1b2) to the love for the children
1b3) to love wisdom and righteousness
2) intransitively
2a) to turn to one's self
2b) to turn one's self about, turn back
2c) to return, turn back, come back
---------------
Gil > To turn around and return to the one true God.
Ultimately , to return back, as was Adam before he fell.

The children of Israel were being called to return back to their roots, before their fall.
It was the first Adam who fell away from God, and it would be the children of Israel of their Father Abraham that had the greatest stumbling block placed before them. The one that would yolk them to the Law and its bondage that would place them into chains that could only be cut loose through Jesus Christ.

The ( converted) conversion would come through the Interim period , from John the Baptist to the coming of the Holy Spirit at the Pentecost.
It was to continue through the early church being formed by Paul and the apostles.
It was effectual unto the Jew/Gentile of that age.

Transform

3339 // metamorfow // metamorphoo // met-am-or-fo'-o //

from 3326 and 3445 ; TDNT - 4:755,607; v

AV - transfigure 2, transform 1, change 1; 4

1) to change into another form, to transform, to transfigure
1a) Christ appearance was changed and was resplendent with
divine brightness on the mount of transfiguration
Root: to form
--------------------------
Gil > To be changed into another form.
To take on that which is new , through the Last Adam .
We are being called to take on the mind of Christ, and be transformed into his spiritual image. A transformation of our pneuma, psuche, psyche. Our inner man.

The Transformation was to be within the new age.
Post AD70, and that through the Body of Christ of which the members of the church are a part of.
It is afforded to all man in the flesh of the new age, and that through Faith in the Father and his Son, and that which was accomplished at the cross.

The children of Israel could not return to their mothers womb and be born again, they had to be converted back as little children and would become adopted by Jesus Christ, the last Adam.
We are not of the adoption, but enter unto a new promised spiritual seed that we may be transformed.

Gil

[Gil]

Hi Bob,

That was post 56. Hard to keep track.

Gil

[gilgal]

OK - I checked the verbs in the Greek LXX version and found that they follow the same pattern as in Christ's statement.

Malachi 4:5 Behold, I send [Gk: apostello, present indicative] you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: And he shall turn [GK: apokatastasei, future indicative] the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Therefore Christ was merely affirming this Scripture. But now get this - the two verbs are reproduced verbatim in the two places where Christ identified John the Baptist as the Elijah who was to come!

Matthew 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send [Gk: apostello, present indicative] my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Matthew 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly comes [Gk: erchatei, present indicative] first, and shall restore [GK: apokatastasei, future indicative] all things.

This strongly confirms that fact that John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecies of the Elijah who was to come, who also is identified by Christ as the "messenger" of Malachi 3:1. And it explains the pattern of present indicative followed by a future indicative. I consider the evidence to be quite conclusive.

There seems to be a confusion for any reader of Malachi. It seems to me that a messenger is a forerunner or a herald before the king. Malachi mentions Elijah by name only in the end. And look at this:

Matthew 11:10 For this is he, of whom it is written, Behold, I send [Gk: apostello, present indicative] my messenger before thy face, which shall prepare thy way before thee.

Why didn't Malachi mention the Messenger as Elijah from the beginning?

Matthew 17:11 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Elias truly comes [Gk: erchatei, present indicative] first, and shall restore [GK: apokatastasei, future indicative] all things.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

There seems to be a confusion for any reader of Malachi. It seems to me that a messenger is a forerunner or a herald before the king. Malachi mentions Elijah by name only in the end. And look at this:

I don't see any confusion at all. It all makes perfect sense to me. Everything is clear as day. John the Baptist fulfilled the prophecies of Malachi which was all about the coming of Messiah and the great and terrible day of the Lord that happened 40 years later.

Why didn't Malachi mention the Messenger as Elijah from the beginning?

Why should he? How would you have written those verses? Would you have altered Malachi 3:1?

Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger Elijah, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.

I don't know why Malachi didn't write that, but I certainly wouldn't try to justify a doctrine about a "second coming of Elijah" on that basis.

I get the feeling that you are looking for a loophole to support Futurism rather than trying to understand what the Bible actually states.

[CWH]

This is totally idiotic and absurd! John the Baptist never claimed he was Elijah the Prophet, and that's because from a physical mans perspective, he's John the Baptist. But he came in the power and spirit of Elijah, and Jesus states that this was Elijah who was to come. So from a mans perspective, he was John the Baptist who came in the power and spirit of Elijah; he was the voice of one crying in the wilderness; he was the one who came through the spirit of Elijah to restore all things.



John's sole purpose was to "prepare the way". He came in the power and spirit of Elijah to prepare the way of the Lord. Thus his purpose for baptizing in water was to bring forth and declare the Anointed One. At the same time, if you listened to his explanation of baptizing with water, this was all a picture to point to Christ, who would not baptize with physical water, but spiritual water; the fire that cleanses all souls.



Good, you confirmed the truth. However, you went the way of the Doh Doh with your interpretation. NOWHERE in Prophesy, and I mean NOWHERE, does it state that Elijah would PHYSICALLY come to fulfill what you expect.

You claim to be a Christian, yet you fail to arrive at even the obvious conclusions?

This is all silly Choew.

Now you see why I chose to stop debating eschatology with you Futurists; you guys are crazy! Your debates are filled with idiotic guesses and speculation, with one stupid lie to the next, leading all readers of your garbage into a constant barrage of misconceptions, so much to the point that even non-believers accept the hokus-pokus non-sense you spew from your mouths.




My word, this deserves to be smitten. Jesus specifically stated that John the Baptists was Elijah who was to come. Also, who was the one that prepared the way for the Lord? John the Baptist! Who was the voice in the wilderness that "prepared the way for the Lord" and to "make His paths straight"? John the Baptist. So what's your problem? English?

Man, this is easy stuff for those who are willing and able. Apparently, you are not! You're digging your own grave Cheow. You're spewing out lies and errors, and act as though you will not be held accountable for those lies. You deny the very words of Jesus! That makes you similar to an Antichrist.



No, but he does give you the choice Cheow; to believe Him, or reject it. He DOES NOT give you a choice to look for another Elijah; that's your ignorance!



He's speaking in the present/past tense Cheow. That's common within the Greek language. They use present tense verbs in a passive way. Now using simple English, if He were trying to give a choice to either accept it or not, then why would He even bother in the first place? That's like saying that John the Baptist was a Elijah to come, but then he wasn't Elijah to come. You can't have it both ways.

Again, this is just idiotic interpretations on your part. You sound like a desperate foolish reader trying his best to twist even the simplest verses. But that's the ways of the Futurists. One big steamy pile of cow dung. And it's disgusting indeed!



It's right there, in plain language. John the Baptist figuratively fulfilled the coming of Elijah who restored all things. I don't get you Cheow!



That's a bunch of bull! Preterism brings the Bible to life. Futurism makes the Bible contradictory and inconceivable that quacks like you, and Henry with his Bill Clinton accusations, all knowingly appear idiotically crazed maniacs who are suffering from Futurist hypnotism into believing the Futurist lies.

Your entire beliefs and discussions have left a bad stain on my clothes (figuratively speaking), and that's the reason why I chose to stop discussing eschatology with you all. You guys are crazy, and are no different that date setters. Crazy, crazy, crazy, and Cheow himself proves it. But at least the Lord's grace gives you a chance. As long as you continue to speak, and live, then the Lord's grace is proving His Patients with you all.

You Futurists need to take full responsibility for the non-saved rejecting the Church. You guys have a difficult time shutting up, and fill TV and radio with your non-sense. It's no wonder why the unsaved reject people like you, yet they cling to some of its sensationalism. It's very ironic that a strip club dancer, when asked if Jesus was about to return, she replies, "Revelation states that the waters would turn into blood...." Remember the news about the fish dying in the water? One such beach bum said just that.

Liar believes the lies, and liars continue to preach it. You guys are a perfect crowd!

Joe

No need to be so arrogant Joe. You stop debating, that's your own business, don't blame on others. If you disagree or refuse to see in a new perspective, fine; everyone is entitled to their own opinions. Your negative words is detrimental to your true character. People will see the other side of you. Have I ever said such things to you? No, and never directly to anyone.

If you say Futurists are crazy, can I say the same to Preterists with their 40 years millennium, the invisible coming of Jesus, sin is forever, Hell is Gehenna, Lake of fire is the fire from the burning of the Temple in Jerusalem etc. Looks like both Futurists and Preterists are Crazy, Crazy, Crazy.

Why so hard on yourself or to everybody? Believe in Preterism or Futurism or others does not guarantee one a place in heaven but those who did the will of the Father who is in heaven.

Let God be your first thoughts by day or by night. Amen.