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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
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    Yakima, Wa
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    Why I quit Christianity

    When I started this forum in 2007, I identified myself as a "Bible-believing Christian" in no uncertain terms. For example, here is how I described myself in my old FAQ (which remains on my old site for historical purposes):
    Are you a Christian? Protestant? Catholic?
    Praise God, I am a man saved by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Ephesian 2:8). I am a non-denominational blood-bought Bible-believing Trinitarian Christian. I believe that the true “faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 3) is well stated in the early creeds of the church that Christ founded.
    Likewise, here is my testimony about the purpose of my website on the old homepage:
    To this end I labour, to glorify the Triune God; to glorify the Father Almighty, Creator of all, to glorify His Son Jesus Christ my Saviour and Hope, and to glorify the Giver of all divine gifts, my Comforter, Guide, Teacher and Friend, God the Holy Spirit. To You be the glory, thrice holy blessed God of Eternity! To You be the glory, now and forevermore. Amen. Amen. Amen.
    And here are the thanks I gave to Christ on my old About page:
    I remain eternally grateful to my Lord Jesus Christ, the King of the Universe, for shedding His Light upon me and guiding my path – usually without my knowledge – and giving me both the burning desire and the ability to proclaim the neverending wonders of His Holy Word. Oh! The wonders of His Grace! Had He left me to myself, doubtless I’d be dead or wandering aimless and lost through this dark world. Thank you, my Lord!
    So, that's where I was in 2007. How is it possible that I now reject the faith I once believed with such passion? What changed? The answer is really pretty simple. I was "blinded" by the light I saw in the Bible. Anyone who has entered in to the Bible with believing eyes knows how it can capture the soul. It feels alive. It touches chords that resonate down into the deepest parts of ourselves. It is filled with light everywhere you look: the Gospel message shines with its numinous symbolic elements like the Alpha Omega, the Cross, the Dove, the Death and Resurrection of Christ, and on and on it goes. Who wouldn't want to believe such a story? Indeed, the believer wonders how anyone could resist such an amazing Gospel message. And beyond all that, I had the overwhelming witness of the Bible Wheel which seemed to confirm everything about the Bible as the very Word of God. All these thing blinded me to the "dark side" of the Bible. I simply "overlooked" all the problematic passages, errors, contradictions, and moral abominations that didn't fit with the amazingly glorious, and blinding, vision of the Bible as "God's Word."

    So here are three of the primary issues that conspired to finally convince me that the traditional Christian faith is not true.

    1) The Doctrine of Hell

    I cannot conceive of a good God who would design an eternal evil in which souls suffer eternal conscious torment. This is a central doctrine accepted by the vast majority of Christians.

    2) The Bible contains many errors, contradictions, logical absurdities, and moral abominations attributed to God.

    This point covers a very large class of problems. Many recent threads deal with them. The most significant to me are the moral abominations attributed to God, such as his command to kill all the men, women, and children of people in Canaan.

    3) God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers.
    This fact seems incontrovertible and it directly contradicts the central promises of the Bible. It was the "final straw" for me.

    I would be delighted to dig into these issues with anyone interested.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  2. #2
    Join Date
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post

    So here are the the primary issues that conspired to finally convince me that the traditional Christian faith is not true. The are listed in order from the least to the most

    1) The Doctrine of Hell

    I cannot conceive of a good God who would design an eternal evil in which souls suffer eternal conscious torment. This is a central doctrine accepted by the vast majority of Christians.

    2) The Bible contains many errors, contradictions, logical absurdities, and moral abominations attributed to God.

    This point covers a very large class of problems. Many recent threads deal with them. The most significant to me are the moral abominations attributed to God, such as his command to kill all the men, women, and children of people in Canaan.

    3) God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers.
    This fact seems incontrovertible and it directly contradicts the central promises of the Bible. It was the "final straw" for me.

    I would be delighted to dig into these issues with anyone interested.
    The three points you listed are likewise for me also considered "Deal breakers", but I would add a fourth that was for me the "final straw", that would be the masculine bias attributed God. Realizing that the "God" portrayed in the Bible is a god created by men from ideas in their own minds, was what finally pushed me to the point where I could no longer call myself a Christian.

    From a woman's perspective "God" being portrayed as male has always evoked conflicting feelings that men would never experience. Trying to relate to a male creator that is constantly assaulting a woman's most innate feminine sense, is something that a man never has to experience because of God's masculine nature.

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    Not from this world...from the other side
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    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    When I started this forum in 2007, I identified myself as a "Bible-believing Christian" in no uncertain terms. For example, here is how I described myself in my old FAQ (which remains on my old site for historical purposes):
    Are you a Christian? Protestant? Catholic?
    Praise God, I am a man saved by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Ephesian 2:8). I am a non-denominational blood-bought Bible-believing Trinitarian Christian. I believe that the true “faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 3) is well stated in the early creeds of the church that Christ founded.
    You have obviously lost your first love. Jesus yearn for these people to repent and come back to Him or face punishment:

    Revelation 2:4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

    Likewise, here is my testimony about the purpose of my website on the old homepage:
    To this end I labour, to glorify the Triune God; to glorify the Father Almighty, Creator of all, to glorify His Son Jesus Christ my Saviour and Hope, and to glorify the Giver of all divine gifts, my Comforter, Guide, Teacher and Friend, God the Holy Spirit. To You be the glory, thrice holy blessed God of Eternity! To You be the glory, now and forevermore. Amen. Amen. Amen.
    And here are the thanks I gave to Christ on my old About page:
    I remain eternally grateful to my Lord Jesus Christ, the King of the Universe, for shedding His Light upon me and guiding my path – usually without my knowledge – and giving me both the burning desire and the ability to proclaim the neverending wonders of His Holy Word. Oh! The wonders of His Grace! Had He left me to myself, doubtless I’d be dead or wandering aimless and lost through this dark world. Thank you, my Lord!
    Your testimonies have made you a liar to God since you have rejected His Love. If you are eternally grateful to the Lord, you will do things in support of Him and not against Him, that makes you a traitor.

    So, that's where I was in 2007. How is it possible that I now reject the faith I once believed with such passion? What changed? The answer is really pretty simple. I was "blinded" by the light I saw in the Bible. Anyone who has entered in to the Bible with believing eyes knows how it can capture the soul. It feels alive. It touches chords that resonate down into the deepest parts of ourselves. It is filled with light everywhere you look: the Gospel message shines with its numinous symbolic elements like the Alpha Omega, the Cross, the Dove, the Death and Resurrection of Christ, and on and on it goes. Who wouldn't want to believe such a story? Indeed, the believer wonders how anyone could resist such an amazing Gospel message. And beyond all that, I had the overwhelming witness of the Bible Wheel which seemed to confirm everything about the Bible as the very Word of God. All these thing blinded me to the "dark side" of the Bible. I simply "overlooked" all the problematic passages, errors, contradictions, and moral abominations that didn't fit with the amazingly glorious, and blinding, vision of the Bible as "God's Word."

    So here are the the primary issues that conspired to finally convince me that the traditional Christian faith is not true.
    You have been blinded by Satan and earthly aspirations. You requires our prayers....

    Matthew 13:18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

    Pray that you could be the seed that falls on good soil.

    Your constant doubting and testing of the Words of God lead you further into rejecting God....I am so disappointed:

    Matthew 4:
    4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’

    5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

    “‘He will command his angels concerning you,
    and they will lift you up in their hands,
    so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[c]”

    7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[d]”

    8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

    10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’[e]”


    To summarize the above passage:
    1. You must live by every word that comes from the mouth of God.
    2. Do not test God but trust in Him.
    3. Do not be tempted by worldly pleasures but worship the Lord and serve Him only. You cannot serve both God and mammon. Do not put your treasures on earth where moth and rust can destroy..put your treasures in heaven.

    Should we question God?
    http://www.scripturessay.com/article.php?cat=&id=160

    Do we question God because we think we are better than God?
    http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/bib...ioningGod.aspx


    9 “Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker,
    those who are nothing but potsherds
    among the potsherds on the ground.
    Does the clay say to the potter,
    ‘What are you making?’
    Does your work say,
    ‘The potter has no hands’?
    10 Woe to the one who says to a father,
    ‘What have you begotten?’
    or to a mother,
    ‘What have you brought to birth?’



    1) The Doctrine of Hell
    I cannot conceive of a good God who would design an eternal evil in which souls suffer eternal conscious torment. This is a central doctrine accepted by the vast majority of Christians.
    Hell is a deterrent for us against being evil and heaven is hope for us in being good and righteous and for our belief in God. I would rather live my life as if there is a God or Hell and die to find out there isn't then to live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is

    Many religions have the concept of punishment in Hell for the evil and rewards in Heaven for the good and righteous. This is the central doctrine that the goal of life on earth is a stepping stone to life in heaven and that everyone should strive to achieve that goal. Rightous souls are what God is after and the earth is His farmland for righteous souls:

    Matthew 13:24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
    27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

    28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

    “The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

    29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”

    The Parables of the Mustard Seed and the Yeast

    31 He told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. 32 Though it is the smallest of all seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds come and perch in its branches.”
    33 He told them still another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into about sixty pounds[b] of flour until it worked all through the dough.”


    The Parable of the Weeds Explained

    36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
    37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

    40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

    The Parables of the Hidden Treasure and the Pearl

    44 “The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.
    45 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls. 46 When he found one of great value, he went away and sold everything he had and bought it.

    The Parable of the Net

    47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.




    2) The Bible contains many errors, contradictions, logical absurdities, and moral abominations attributed to God.
    This point covers a very large class of problems. Many recent threads deal with them. The most significant to me are the moral abominations attributed to God, such as his command to kill all the men, women, and children of people in Canaan.
    I do understand the moral abominations attributed to God that you faced in the Bible, but one does not declare someone guilty unless proven beyond reasonable doubt. If I have a gun in my hand and a dead body beside me does not mean I am the murderer. There are many things which God did which is currently beyond human understanding. We know that His ways and thoughts are higher than us and one day we will know the rightful reason for His "abominable" acts. But what I do know that God has the right to give life and take life; He has the right to create and right to destroy as deemed fit:

    Isaiah 45

    1 “This is what the LORD says to his anointed,
    to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of
    to subdue nations before him
    and to strip kings of their armor,
    to open doors before him
    so that gates will not be shut:
    2 I will go before you
    and will level the mountains[a];
    I will break down gates of bronze
    and cut through bars of iron.
    3 I will give you hidden treasures,
    riches stored in secret places,
    so that you may know that I am the LORD,
    the God of Israel, who summons you by name.
    4 For the sake of Jacob my servant,
    of Israel my chosen,
    I summon you by name
    and bestow on you a title of honor,
    though you do not acknowledge me.
    5 I am the LORD, and there is no other;
    apart from me there is no God.
    I will strengthen you,
    though you have not acknowledged me,
    6 so that from the rising of the sun
    to the place of its setting
    people may know there is none besides me.
    I am the LORD, and there is no other.
    7 I form the light and create darkness,
    I bring prosperity and create disaster;
    I, the LORD, do all these things.

    8 “You heavens above, rain down my righteousness;
    let the clouds shower it down.
    Let the earth open wide,
    let salvation spring up,
    let righteousness flourish with it;
    I, the LORD, have created it.


    Does God have the right to life and death?:

    Deuteronomy 30:15
    See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction.

    Deuteronomy 30:19
    This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

    Deuteronomy 32:39
    “See now that I myself am he! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand.


    Suppose you as parents have the right to create your children and the right to end their life and a right to resurrect them, would ending of the life of your children be seen as abominable since you can resurrect them at will? If your child has done a heinous sin deserving death or beyond corrigible, would you allow your child to be punished? Yes, for the sake of justice and fairness and integrity. What more if you can resurrect your child meted out for the punishment at the appointed time in which you can give him another chance?

    3) God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers.
    This fact seems incontrovertible and it directly contradicts the central promises of the Bible. It was the "final straw" for me.
    There are many prayers that were already answered even before you knew them. Is Rose your wife a result of chance or God's blessings? Is the property and land that you have a result of chance or God's Blessings? Of course, there are unanswered prayers which for whatever reason were not answered, but we always trust that whatever He decides is always for the best of our interest. Even if your prayers are not answered, don't be despair for there is a reward in heaven for your trust, belief and prayers to Him.

    Matthew 6:6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

    God knew all our aspirations before we even ask in our prayers and is willing to give them to you in abundance. Don't we want eternal life and abundance in heaven? Even the apostles were after these!:

    27 Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?”

    Matthew 19: 28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[e] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.

    Luke 12: 22 Then Jesus said to his disciples: “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear. 23 For life is more than food, and the body more than clothes. 24 Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds! 25 Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to your life[b]? 26 Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest?
    27 “Consider how the wild flowers grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 28 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you—you of little faith! 29 And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. 30 For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31 But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.

    32 “Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. 33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.


    May the Love, Wisdom and Blessings of God be with us forevermore. Amen.
    Last edited by CWH; 08-09-2011 at 12:20 AM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
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    Yakima, Wa
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    You have obviously lost your first love. Jesus yearn for these people to repent and come back to Him or face punishment:
    That's so tempting! Who could refuse an offer like "LOVE ME OR I'LL TORTURE YOU FOREVER!"?

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Your testimonies have made you a liar to God since you have rejected His Love. If you are eternally grateful to the Lord, you will do things in support of Him and not against Him, that makes you a traitor.
    That's absurd. They do not make me a "liar." They are an accurate representation of what I felt and believed at that time. The fact that my beliefs are now different does not mean that they were lies back then. Your logic is absurd, as usual.

    And please try to deal with reality for a change. I am not doing anything "against God." My statements are statements of truth, so if God is "truth" as you believe, then I am supporting God by speaking truth. You would do well to follow suit. I am constantly stunned by how Christians who profess "love of truth" constantly lie, twist, misrepresent, and reject it. And then they accuse those who speak truth of being liars. What godless twitbrains!

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    You have been blinded by Satan and earthly aspirations. You requires our prayers....
    That's a lie. I simply have spoken truth to the best of my ability. You don't like the truth, so you lie and say that I have been blinded by Satan. What evidence do you have? None? Right! That's exactly what I thought. You throw out false accusations without any love for the truth at all. You are acting exactly like the "Satan" character in the Bible. But you don't care, do you? You will write crap and throw false accusations against anyone who disagrees with your personal beliefs.

    And then you falsely claim that I have "earthly aspirations." How do you know that? Can you read my mind? You're actions are so typical of arrogant Christians who attack anyone who thinks freely and speaks truth. Don't you realize that you are exposing your religion as a cult when you behave this way in public?

    If I have said something that is false, you should expose my error, not invent crazy ideas like some imaginary "devil" has "blinded" me in some non-specified way. Your arguments are pathetic.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Matthew 13:18 'Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.'

    Pray that you could be the seed that falls on good soil.
    You got it backwards. The person in the parable is not the "seed." The person is the "soil" and the "seed" is the Word of God.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Your constant doubting and testing of the Words of God lead you further into rejecting God....I am so disappointed:

    Matthew 4:
    4 Jesus answered, 'It is written: [B]‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’'

    5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 'If you are the Son of God,' he said, 'throw yourself down. For it is written:

    '‘He will command his angels concerning you,
    and they will lift you up in their hands,
    so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[c]'

    7 Jesus answered him, 'It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[d]'

    8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 'All this I will give you,' he said, 'if you will bow down and worship me.'

    10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’[e]'


    To summarize the above passage:
    1. You must live by every word that comes from the mouth of God.
    2. Do not test God but trust in Him.
    3. Do not be tempted by worldly pleasures but worship the Lord and serve Him only. You cannot serve both God and mammon. Do not put your treasures on earth where moth and rust can destroy..put your treasures in heaven.

    Should we question God?
    http://www.scripturessay.com/article.php?cat=&id=160

    Do we question God because we think we are better than God?
    http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/bib...ioningGod.aspx


    9 'Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker,
    those who are nothing but potsherds
    among the potsherds on the ground.
    Does the clay say to the potter,
    ‘What are you making?’
    Does your work say,
    ‘The potter has no hands’?
    10 Woe to the one who says to a father,
    ‘What have you begotten?’
    or to a mother,
    ‘What have you brought to birth?’
    Great! So Muslims should not question Allah, and Hindus should not question their religion, right? You are advocating IGNORANT MINDLESS CULT MEMBERSHIP. Thanks, but I think I'll pass on your lovely offer. It's almost as good as your idea that God says "LOVE ME OR I'LL TORTURE YOU FOREVER IN HELL!".

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Hell is a deterrent for us against being evil and heaven is hope for us in being good and righteous and for our belief in God. I would rather live my life as if there is a God or Hell and die to find out there isn't then to live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is
    Hell is not a "deterrent." It is an eternal evil. Any being that would create a hell where souls suffer eternal conscious torment would be a DEVIL. This is obvious to any person with a living heart who actually loves others. The fact that you support the doctrine of hell indicates either that you don't really know what you are saying, or that your heart is as dead and cold as a stone.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Many religions have the concept of punishment in Hell for the evil and rewards in Heaven for the good and righteous.
    That's right, and all those religions were made up by people right? Or what, are you saying you believe in Hinudism and Islam? And Atheism too? Your mind is very confused.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    This is the central doctrine that the goal of life on earth is a stepping stone to life in heaven and that everyone should strive to achieve that goal. Rightous souls are what God is after and the earth is His farmland for righteous souls:
    That's not what the Bible says. All have sinned. There is none righteous. Only Christ is righteous, and he came to save sinners, not the righteous. You have absolutely no understanding of the religion you claim to believe. How then do you differ from an unbeliever? And this brings up the primary absurdity of Christianity. You are supposedly saved by "believing" in Jesus. What if your beliefs are wrong? Suppose you were preached to by some Mormon who believes that Jesus was the brother of Lucifer? Or what about Jehovah Witnesses who deny Jesus is God. How much "truth" do you need to "get right" before God let's you in?

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    I do understand the moral abominations attributed to God that you faced in the Bible, but one does not declare someone guilty unless proven beyond reasonable doubt. If I have a gun in my hand and a dead body beside me does not mean I am the murderer. There are many things which God did which is currently beyond human understanding. We know that His ways and thoughts are higher than us and one day we will know the rightful reason for His "abominable" acts. But what I do know that God has the right to give life and take life; He has the right to create and right to destroy as deemed fit:
    The idea that God's "ways and thoughts are higher" does not mean that they are "lower." And that's the problem. The command to murder every man, women, and child is not "higher" by any possible standard or any future mystical insight. Your argument shows how Christianity corrupts the mind. You are incapable of seeing truth no matter how plain and obvious it is. How utterly pathetic. You make me think of this famous quote by Steven Weinberg:
    With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
    Your cultish mindset is what killed the Jews under Hitler. It is no different. The same logic applies to all CULTS that take over the believers' minds and make them into obedient mindless robots. You think you are obeying God, but in reality you are obeying the ideas of men who rule your religion. But you can't see this because you have chosen to shut down your mind and "believe" anything you think is "in the Bible" without any critical thought at all. Unfortunately, you can't see the great irony - HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU ARE UNDERSTANDING THE BIBLE CORRECTLY? You can't know this, because you have shut off your mind and chosen to be an obedient mindless robot.

    I wish I could help you see the irony. If you don't think for yourself, then you are being controlled by other men who run your religion. You are not obeying "God" but men. You have no choice - you must think for yourself and judge what is true or false in the Bible, or you will be a mindless robot controlled by the ideas of other people.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Suppose you as parents have the right to create your children and the right to end their life and a right to resurrect them, would ending of the life of your children be seen as abominable since you can resurrect them at will? If your child has done a heinous sin deserving death or beyond corrigible, would you allow your child to be punished? Yes, for the sake of justice and fairness and integrity. What more if you can resurrect your child meted out for the punishment at the appointed time in which you can give him another chance?
    If I "suppose" that I had the powers of God as you suggest, I can tell you I would be nothing like the God portrayed in the Bible. For example, it is absolutely inconceivable that I would punish my children in hell forever for the "crime" of disobeying me, or worse, for not "believing" in me when I have never shown myself to them or answered any of their letters. The moment you suggest human analogies for God, you expose him as a tyrant. No human would be respected who demanded worship! What a crazy ego trip.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    There are many prayers that were already answered even before you knew them. Is Rose your wife a result of chance or God's blessings? Is the property and land that you have a result of chance or God's Blessings? Of course, there are unanswered prayers which for whatever reason were not answered, but we always trust that whatever He decides is always for the best of our interest. Even if your prayers are not answered, don't be despair for there is a reward in heaven for your trust, belief and prayers to Him.
    Man, don't you have any understanding about anything? My neighbor is a Muslim, and he lives in a mansion and has millions of dollars. Does that prove Allah is the true God? I can't believe I have to explain these things to you. I feel like I'm talking to a child. But you don't care. You refuse to learn. Truth means nothing to you. You would have seen all the errors in your post if you cared about truth.

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    God knew all our aspirations before we even ask in our prayers and is willing to give them to you in abundance. Don't we want eternal life and abundance in heaven? Even the apostles were after these!:
    Sorry, but that is simply not true. Everyone knows that God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers. If we rely on God for our welfare in this life, we will die. The proof is painfully obvious. Take 100 atheists and 100 Christians with the plague. Let the Christians pray, and give the athesist antibiotics. Who lives? Who dies? Case closed.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  5. #5
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    That's so tempting! Who could refuse an offer like "LOVE ME OR I'LL TORTURE YOU FOREVER!"?
    Wrong, the correct interpretation is "LOVE ME OR I WILL PUNISH YOU IF YOU DON'T REPENT (Not Torture Forever)". God always give us a chance for forgiveness by repentance, if not why Jesus always called the Jews to repent?....Read the Bible!


    That's absurd. They do not make me a "liar." They are an accurate representation of what I felt and believed at that time. The fact that my beliefs are now different does not mean that they were lies back then. Your logic is absurd, as usual.
    So your words "Eternally grateful to the Lord" lasted only 4 years! If this is not a lie, what is it? Eternal means eternal and not a few years. You have lost your first love and I am saying with brotherly concern.

    And please try to deal with reality for a change. I am not doing anything "against God." My statements are statements of truth, so if God is "truth" as you believe, then I am supporting God by speaking truth. You would do well to follow suit. I am constantly stunned by how Christians who profess "love of truth" constantly lie, twist, misrepresent, and reject it. And then they accuse those who speak truth of being liars. What godless twitbrains!
    How do we know your statements are truth? Did God told you so?

    That's a lie. I simply have spoken truth to the best of my ability. You don't like the truth, so you lie and say that I have been blinded by Satan. What evidence do you have? None? Right! That's exactly what I thought. You throw out false accusations without any love for the truth at all. You are acting exactly like the "Satan" character in the Bible. But you don't care, do you? You will write crap and throw false accusations against anyone who disagrees with your personal beliefs.
    How do we know you are speaking the truth?... neither have you any evidence to prove so. Does someone blinded by Satan knows that he has been blinded? I don't know myself, do you?
    Now who is mocking who?....and I never use such words as crap and accusation and brainless and what not. Use whatever words you want; I am saying out of brotherly love and not in contempt.

    And then you falsely claim that I have "earthly aspirations." How do you know that? Can you read my mind? You're actions are so typical of arrogant Christians who attack anyone who thinks freely and speaks truth. Don't you realize that you are exposing your religion as a cult when you behave this way in public?
    What cult? I don't even have a follower. Do you know me? Neither can you read my mind. I am not attacking anyone personally but attacking their words and belief which are anti-God. I detest people who say things against God. If you truly and "eternally" love God, you will not say things against God or His people. All of us have earthly aspirations do we?...Important thing is to strive for all these aspirations with God and Love your neighbor in mind otherwise it is considered as selfish aspirations and greed.

    If I have said something that is false, you should expose my error, not invent crazy ideas like some imaginary "devil" has "blinded" me in some non-specified way. Your arguments are pathetic.
    Are you saying that people who believe in God and Satan are crazy? Wow!...That means almost the whole population of the world and only a few handful are sane. That's insane! I guess Jesus was insane too for He believed in the imaginary devil.


    You got it backwards. The person in the parable is not the "seed." The person is the "soil" and the "seed" is the Word of God.
    Read the passage properly! The seed is people:
    20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy.

    Great! So Muslims should not question Allah, and Hindus should not question their religion, right? You are advocating IGNORANT MINDLESS CULT MEMBERSHIP. Thanks, but I think I'll pass on your lovely offer. It's almost as good as your idea that God says "LOVE ME OR I'LL TORTURE YOU FOREVER IN HELL!".
    Wrong, the correct interpretation is "LOVE ME OR I WILL PUNISH YOU IF YOU DON'T REPENT (Not Torture Forever)".

    Hell is not a "deterrent." It is an eternal evil. Any being that would create a hell where souls suffer eternal conscious torment would be a DEVIL. This is obvious to any person with a living heart who actually loves others. The fact that you support the doctrine of hell indicates either that you don't really know what you are saying, or that your heart is as dead and cold as a stone.
    Jesus warned people about Hell and advice people to fear God, so was Jesus a Devil also? That's absurd of the highest degree:
    Matthew 10:28
    Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.


    That's right, and all those religions were made up by people right? Or what, are you saying you believe in Hinudism and Islam? And Atheism too? Your mind is very confused.
    Look at the Big picture, it doesn't matter which religion you believed. Important thing is that one should try to be righteous and repent of your sin and chances are that one will be forgiven. Righteous souls is what God is after. Now who is more confused? I have never veered from Futurism to Preterism to Non-theism.

    That's not what the Bible says. All have sinned. There is none righteous. Only Christ is righteous, and he came to save sinners, not the righteous. You have absolutely no understanding of the religion you claim to believe. How then do you differ from an unbeliever? And this brings up the primary absurdity of Christianity. You are supposedly saved by "believing" in Jesus. What if your beliefs are wrong? Suppose you were preached to by some Mormon who believes that Jesus was the brother of Lucifer? Or what about Jehovah Witnesses who deny Jesus is God. How much "truth" do you need to "get right" before God let's you in?
    Haven't you read the Bible?... Seek ye first the kingdom of God and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS and all these things (aspirations) will be given unto you. Jesus came to seek the sinners to repent so that they can be saved!:
    Luke 5:32
    I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”


    Where in the Bible did it says, "There is none righteous. Only Christ is righteous"? You have confused righteousness with perfection. There is none perfect except God. There were righteous people:

    Matthew 5:10
    Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    Matthew 5:20
    For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

    Matthew 5:45
    that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.


    The idea that God's "ways and thoughts are higher" does not mean that they are "lower." And that's the problem. The command to murder every man, women, and child is not "higher" by any possible standard or any future mystical insight. Your argument shows how Christianity corrupts the mind. You are incapable of seeing truth no matter how plain and obvious it is. How utterly pathetic. You make me think of this famous quote by Steven Weinberg:
    With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.
    Your cultish mindset is what killed the Jews under Hitler. It is no different. The same logic applies to all CULTS that take over the believers' minds and make them into obedient mindless robots. You think you are obeying God, but in reality you are obeying the ideas of men who rule your religion. But you can't see this because you have chosen to shut down your mind and "believe" anything you think is "in the Bible" without any critical thought at all. Unfortunately, you can't see the great irony - HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU ARE UNDERSTANDING THE BIBLE CORRECTLY? You can't know this, because you have shut off your mind and chosen to be an obedient mindless robot.
    Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black. And how about you, HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU ARE UNDERSTANDING THE BIBLE CORRECTLY? You have already shut your mind to the passage,"Thou shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God"....what is there to say about understanding the Bible correctly?

    I wish I could help you see the irony. If you don't think for yourself, then you are being controlled by other men who run your religion. You are not obeying "God" but men. You have no choice - you must think for yourself and judge what is true or false in the Bible, or you will be a mindless robot controlled by the ideas of other people.
    Thank you and I too wish I could help you see the irony. I am saying from the brotherly love point of view. You mean you can judge what is true and false in the Bible and know what passages written in the Bible were from uninspired men? Wow, you must have received divine revelations, my special friend.


    If I "suppose" that I had the powers of God as you suggest, I can tell you I would be nothing like the God portrayed in the Bible. For example, it is absolutely inconceivable that I would punish my children in hell forever for the "crime" of disobeying me, or worse, for not "believing" in me when I have never shown myself to them or answered any of their letters. The moment you suggest human analogies for God, you expose him as a tyrant. No human would be respected who demanded worship! What a crazy ego trip.
    If I have powers of God, I will allow my children to be punished for Heinous crime they committed until the day that they truly repented And then raised them up and forgive them. That's the righteous thing o do. No parents would allow their children to be punished forever in hell and even for minor crimes as you suggested. To even think of it is totally absurd.


    Man, don't you have any understanding about anything? My neighbor is a Muslim, and he lives in a mansion and has millions of dollars. Does that prove Allah is the true God? I can't believe I have to explain these things to you. I feel like I'm talking to a child. But you don't care. You refuse to learn. Truth means nothing to you. You would have seen all the errors in your post if you cared about truth.
    I don't care even if Bill Gates is living next to you. What I do care is that we should not store our treasures on earth where moth and rust can destroy but store our treasures in heaven. We cannot serve both God and mammon. Must I have to tell you all these?

    Sorry, but that is simply not true. Everyone knows that God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers. If we rely on God for our welfare in this life, we will die. The proof is painfully obvious. Take 100 atheists and 100 Christians with the plague. Let the Christians pray, and give the athesist antibiotics. Who lives? Who dies? Case closed.
    Yes, we should pray and trust God but we should also be prudent and do not put God to the test. God helps those who helps themselves....don't expect God to totally spoon-feed you. Isn't this what Jesus said, "Those who are well do not requires a physician". And don't put too much faith in antibiotics, it is the body that fights against infections; the antibiotics only help. If the germs have become resistant to antibiotics, all the mentioned 100 atheists and Christians would have died anyway with the plague... prayer or not. And the Christians who died may be resurrected for their faith and trust in God, whereas for the atheist....I don't know. I rather live and die believing there is a God than to say,"There is no God" and die only to realize that God exists.

    Trust God with all your heart and soul, Amen.
    Last edited by CWH; 08-09-2011 at 08:28 PM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  6. #6
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    Ram
    So here are the the primary issues that conspired to finally convince me that the traditional Christian faith is not true.

    1) The Doctrine of Hell
    I cannot conceive of a good God who would design an eternal evil in which souls suffer eternal conscious torment. This is a central doctrine accepted by the vast majority of Christians.

    2) The Bible contains many errors, contradictions, logical absurdities, and moral abominations attributed to God.
    This point covers a very large class of problems. Many recent threads deal with them. The most significant to me are the moral abominations attributed to God, such as his command to kill all the men, women, and children of people in Canaan.

    3) God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers.
    This fact seems incontrovertible and it directly contradicts the central promises of the Bible. It was the "final straw" for me.

    I would be delighted to dig into these issues with anyone interested.
    __________________

    .
    This seems to be 'traditional' Christianity. So what...... no one person can be 'traditional' in all things. You are most certainly not 'traditional'.... and I believe that is a good thing. Some would say 'Heretic'... but I say, one who stands ouside of Orthodoxy'.... (what ever the hell 'orthodoxy' may be).

    1) the 'orthodox' teaching of hell is obsurd.... hell is no more (if there ever was one in modern mans minds eye)

    2) I question god commands to 'kill' all of the men, women, and children of people in Canaan. How do you 'convert' people that you have killed... you cann't, something is very fishy about the inturp.

    3) I don't think that I have ever had a 'prayer' answered in the way that I wanted it answered, but many times I look back in my life and 'wonder'.... was that...? naaawww.....
    Brother Les

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    When I started this forum in 2007, I identified myself as a "Bible-believing Christian" in no uncertain terms. For example, here is how I described myself in my old FAQ (which remains on my old site for historical purposes):
    Are you a Christian? Protestant? Catholic?
    Praise God, I am a man saved by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Ephesian 2:8). I am a non-denominational blood-bought Bible-believing Trinitarian Christian. I believe that the true 'faith which was once delivered unto the saints' (Jude 3) is well stated in the early creeds of the church that Christ founded.
    Likewise, here is my testimony about the purpose of my website on the old homepage:
    To this end I labour, to glorify the Triune God; to glorify the Father Almighty, Creator of all, to glorify His Son Jesus Christ my Saviour and Hope, and to glorify the Giver of all divine gifts, my Comforter, Guide, Teacher and Friend, God the Holy Spirit. To You be the glory, thrice holy blessed God of Eternity! To You be the glory, now and forevermore. Amen. Amen. Amen.
    And here are the thanks I gave to Christ on my old About page:
    I remain eternally grateful to my Lord Jesus Christ, the King of the Universe, for shedding His Light upon me and guiding my path – usually without my knowledge – and giving me both the burning desire and the ability to proclaim the neverending wonders of His Holy Word. Oh! The wonders of His Grace! Had He left me to myself, doubtless I’d be dead or wandering aimless and lost through this dark world. Thank you, my Lord!
    So, that's where I was in 2007. How is it possible that I now reject the faith I once believed with such passion? What changed? The answer is really pretty simple. I was "blinded" by the light I saw in the Bible. Anyone who has entered in to the Bible with believing eyes knows how it can capture the soul. It feels alive. It touches chords that resonate down into the deepest parts of ourselves. It is filled with light everywhere you look: the Gospel message shines with its numinous symbolic elements like the Alpha Omega, the Cross, the Dove, the Death and Resurrection of Christ, and on and on it goes. Who wouldn't want to believe such a story? Indeed, the believer wonders how anyone could resist such an amazing Gospel message. And beyond all that, I had the overwhelming witness of the Bible Wheel which seemed to confirm everything about the Bible as the very Word of God. All these thing blinded me to the "dark side" of the Bible. I simply "overlooked" all the problematic passages, errors, contradictions, and moral abominations that didn't fit with the amazingly glorious, and blinding, vision of the Bible as "God's Word."

    So here are the the primary issues that conspired to finally convince me that the traditional Christian faith is not true.

    1) The Doctrine of Hell

    I cannot conceive of a good God who would design an eternal evil in which souls suffer eternal conscious torment. This is a central doctrine accepted by the vast majority of Christians.

    2) The Bible contains many errors, contradictions, logical absurdities, and moral abominations attributed to God.

    This point covers a very large class of problems. Many recent threads deal with them. The most significant to me are the moral abominations attributed to God, such as his command to kill all the men, women, and children of people in Canaan.

    3) God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers.
    This fact seems incontrovertible and it directly contradicts the central promises of the Bible. It was the "final straw" for me.

    I would be delighted to dig into these issues with anyone interested.
    So if there's one thing that you would lean back on, put your trust in within this life what is it?

    Hindus, Buddists, Moslems, even Jews (Talmud) have their sacred texts. But Christians have died for their faith in the writings of the Apostles and Prophets and the Gospel but you're backing out after this huge discovery of the biblewheel. I don't understand you Richard.

    Maybe our understanding of God isn't complete, or perfect because God is infinite and our minds are finite.

    If there is no resurrection of the dead as Paul mentioned then we find ourselves most unfortunate and miserable than the rest of the world because of our gullible attitude (1Corinthians 15).

    But Christ is risen from the dead and there is hope for us.

  8. #8
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    Good point gilgal,

    I don't understand RAM either.

    With RAM quitting Christianity and saying things against the words of God and His people, I don't know what to make of this forum. Is this a Christian forum or a Non-Christian forum? And the Biblewheel also..Christian or non-Christian...credible or incredible? I am not sure if RAM's conversion from Christianity is affecting his readers negatively in this forum and the Biblewheel. I am saying this out of brotherly concern. That's why I am rebuking RAM and Rose.


    May God's Blessings be with us, Amen.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Good point gilgal,

    I don't understand RAM either.

    With RAM quitting Christianity and saying things against the words of God and His people, I don't know what to make of this forum. Is this a Christian forum or a Non-Christian forum? And the Biblewheel also..Christian or non-Christian...credible or incredible? I am not sure if RAM's conversion from Christianity is affecting his readers negatively in this forum and the Biblewheel. I am saying this out of brotherly concern. That's why I am rebuking RAM and Rose.


    May God's Blessings be with us, Amen.:pray:
    I don't think the bible is meant to be as a book that fell out of heaven with a perfect language. The New Testament is Greek and the Old Hebrew, Aramaic/Chaldean. If you want the meaning of names you have to study Egyptian, Persian...

    But the purpose of the bible is God's forgiveness towards man, give us hope to a fallen race for a better resurrection and eternal life. But we need to accept that we are fallen and turn to God for salvation from Hell.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    So if there's one thing that you would lean back on, put your trust in within this life what is it?
    I don't "lean on" anything in particular. I am a living organism that is part of a world filled with living organisms. I get my sustenance from the earth like every other organism on this planet. I don't "lean on" Allah, Brahman, or any other "God" because I know that there is no God that can be "relied on" to supply our earthly needs. Look around you. The proof is obvious. Is there any difference between the physical survival of Muslims, Hindus, Christians, Jews, or Atheists? Nope. Furthermore, suppose you had a deadly bacterial plague. If you had to choose between "relying on God" or receiving antibiotics made by an atheist scientist, which would you choose?

    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    Hindus, Buddists, Moslems, even Jews (Talmud) have their sacred texts. But Christians have died for their faith in the writings of the Apostles and Prophets and the Gospel but you're backing out after this huge discovery of the biblewheel. I don't understand you Richard.
    I don't see what is so hard to understand. It is obvious that God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers. Everyone knows this. At first, Christians will usually deny it and say that God does answer prayers, but after a little conversation they will begin to explain why God does not answer prayers. So I know that everyone knows the truth, but they just don't like to admit it. And that makes perfect sense, since this one truth directly contradicts the Bible which emphatically promises that God will answer prayers and that we should rely on God for all our earthly needs. But everyone knows they can't really do that. For example, we know that God would have let millions of people die from plagues that scientist have prevented. This means that all the people who relied on God DIED while those who relied on scientists, many of whom were atheists, lived. This means that the Bible is false when it says that God will answer our prayers, and that we should rely on him.

    Therefore, I have no choice. I know the truth, and I have no reason to LIE and say that everything in the Bible is true.

    BUT WHAT ABOUT THE BIBLE WHEEL? That is a true mystery. As far as I can tell, all the evidence for the Bible Wheel remains valid. But I know it can't mean what I used to think it meant, because the Bible contains many errors, contradictions, logical absurdities, and moral abominations attributed to God. So here is what I am going to do. I am going to begin a thread in which I will critique the Bible Wheel book with the same brutal honesty that I have critiqued the Bible and see what remains. I expect all the factual evidence to stand, which means that we will have solid evidence that "something supernatural" is going on in the Bible. The only thing I expect to change in the BW book is the interpretation of what it means. Perhaps I will see that the only real problem was all the Christian theology that was superimposed upon the Bible. As you say below, maybe our understanding of God is "incomplete" or perhaps it is so very wrong that Christianity as a religion really is FALSE. We'll just have to wait and see what the critique reveals. I hope to get the first installment posted tomorrow.

    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    Maybe our understanding of God isn't complete, or perfect because God is infinite and our minds are finite.
    I'd switch that from a "maybe" to a "certainly." And perhaps that means that the Christian religion is completely wrong, and that the God behind the Bible is nothing like Yahweh of the Old Testament or the Father of the New. Perhaps the meaning of the whole Bible has been utterly misunderstood. That seem the most likely truth.

    Thanks for working with me on this.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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