Why I quit Christianity

[Richard Amiel McGough]

When I started this forum in 2007, I identified myself as a "Bible-believing Christian" in no uncertain terms. For example, here is how I described myself in my old FAQ (which remains on my old site for historical purposes):

Are you a Christian? Protestant? Catholic?
Praise God, I am a man saved by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Ephesian 2:8). I am a non-denominational blood-bought Bible-believing Trinitarian Christian. I believe that the true “faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 3) is well stated in the early creeds of the church that Christ founded.

Likewise, here is my testimony about the purpose of my website on the old homepage:

To this end I labour, to glorify the Triune God; to glorify the Father Almighty, Creator of all, to glorify His Son Jesus Christ my Saviour and Hope, and to glorify the Giver of all divine gifts, my Comforter, Guide, Teacher and Friend, God the Holy Spirit. To You be the glory, thrice holy blessed God of Eternity! To You be the glory, now and forevermore. Amen. Amen. Amen.

And here are the thanks I gave to Christ on my old About page:

I remain eternally grateful to my Lord Jesus Christ, the King of the Universe, for shedding His Light upon me and guiding my path – usually without my knowledge – and giving me both the burning desire and the ability to proclaim the neverending wonders of His Holy Word. Oh! The wonders of His Grace! Had He left me to myself, doubtless I’d be dead or wandering aimless and lost through this dark world. Thank you, my Lord!

So, that's where I was in 2007. How is it possible that I now reject the faith I once believed with such passion? What changed? The answer is really pretty simple. I was "blinded" by the light I saw in the Bible. Anyone who has entered in to the Bible with believing eyes knows how it can capture the soul. It feels alive. It touches chords that resonate down into the deepest parts of ourselves. It is filled with light everywhere you look: the Gospel message shines with its numinous symbolic elements like the Alpha Omega, the Cross, the Dove, the Death and Resurrection of Christ, and on and on it goes. Who wouldn't want to believe such a story? Indeed, the believer wonders how anyone could resist such an amazing Gospel message. And beyond all that, I had the overwhelming witness of the Bible Wheel which seemed to confirm everything about the Bible as the very Word of God. All these thing blinded me to the "dark side" of the Bible. I simply "overlooked" all the problematic passages, errors, contradictions, and moral abominations that didn't fit with the amazingly glorious, and blinding, vision of the Bible as "God's Word."

So here are three of the primary issues that conspired to finally convince me that the traditional Christian faith is not true.

1) The Doctrine of Hell
I cannot conceive of a good God who would design an eternal evil in which souls suffer eternal conscious torment. This is a central doctrine accepted by the vast majority of Christians.

2) The Bible contains many errors, contradictions, logical absurdities, and moral abominations attributed to God.
This point covers a very large class of problems. Many recent threads deal with them. The most significant to me are the moral abominations attributed to God, such as his command to kill all the men, women, and children of people in Canaan.

3) God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers.
This fact seems incontrovertible and it directly contradicts the central promises of the Bible. It was the "final straw" for me.

I would be delighted to dig into these issues with anyone interested.

[Rose]

So here are the the primary issues that conspired to finally convince me that the traditional Christian faith is not true. The are listed in order from the least to the most

1) The Doctrine of Hell
I cannot conceive of a good God who would design an eternal evil in which souls suffer eternal conscious torment. This is a central doctrine accepted by the vast majority of Christians.

2) The Bible contains many errors, contradictions, logical absurdities, and moral abominations attributed to God.
This point covers a very large class of problems. Many recent threads deal with them. The most significant to me are the moral abominations attributed to God, such as his command to kill all the men, women, and children of people in Canaan.

3) God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers.
This fact seems incontrovertible and it directly contradicts the central promises of the Bible. It was the "final straw" for me.

I would be delighted to dig into these issues with anyone interested.

The three points you listed are likewise for me also considered "Deal breakers", but I would add a fourth that was for me the "final straw", that would be the masculine bias attributed God. Realizing that the "God" portrayed in the Bible is a god created by men from ideas in their own minds, was what finally pushed me to the point where I could no longer call myself a Christian.

From a woman's perspective "God" being portrayed as male has always evoked conflicting feelings that men would never experience. Trying to relate to a male creator that is constantly assaulting a woman's most innate feminine sense, is something that a man never has to experience because of God's masculine nature.

Rose

[Neah]

The three points you listed are likewise for me also considered "Deal breakers", but I would add a fourth that was for me the "final straw", that would be the masculine bias attributed God. Realizing that the "God" portrayed in the Bible is a god created by men from ideas in their own minds, was what finally pushed me to the point where I could no longer call myself a Christian.

From a woman's perspective "God" being portrayed as male has always evoked conflicting feelings that men would never experience. Trying to relate to a male creator that is constantly assaulting a woman's most innate feminine sense, is something that a man never has to experience because of God's masculine nature.

Rose

Rose, dear Rose

From a womann's perspective.............?

What happened in the Garden after Eve was beguiled? What consequence was given to her from Yah/Yahsua?

Please don't fall into the trap of Feminism, a product of Satan, another lie.

For me, the Bible intrprets the Bible. I started in the Beginning Genesis 1:1 and line upon line, precept, upon, precept, the Word has opened my eyes to many principles, and most assurdly the character of our God, Yah, and our Savior, Yeshua aka JC.

I am new to this forum and I am not a preterist nor am I a futurist or a humanist or a new ager. I am a child of the living God, who has a fallen nature of flesh, that can only be purified with his chastisements and the convicion of sin, at which point, I repent daily, for I am human and not a God.

For me, each reading of Scripture I do and the rereading opens other revealtions that are throughout the Bible. As I mentioned line upon line, precept upon precept. I don't know it all, but I am getting a pretty good picture of what is required to be saved, for I long to know Yeshua intimately, he is my only hope for eternal life and not damnation.

I have run out of words, so I will leave it at that. I will be studying and I will become more involved with the forum topics as I can posssibly become without having to use the Blue Letter Bible to quote Scripture to you all, as I don't seem to be able to retain Book , verse, no., etc..

Praise God from who all Blessings flow, Neah

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I moved the comments by dan b to their own thread since they were not written in response to the OP.

Here the new thread:

The Teachings of Dan B

[CWH]

[QUOTE]

When I started this forum in 2007, I identified myself as a "Bible-believing Christian" in no uncertain terms. For example, here is how I described myself in my old FAQ (which remains on my old site for historical purposes):

Are you a Christian? Protestant? Catholic?
Praise God, I am a man saved by grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Ephesian 2:8). I am a non-denominational blood-bought Bible-believing Trinitarian Christian. I believe that the true “faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 3) is well stated in the early creeds of the church that Christ founded.

You have obviously lost your first love. Jesus yearn for these people to repent and come back to Him or face punishment:

Revelation 2:4 Yet I hold this against you: You have forsaken the love you had at first. 5 Consider how far you have fallen! Repent and do the things you did at first. If you do not repent, I will come to you and remove your lampstand from its place.

Likewise, here is my testimony about the purpose of my website on the old homepage:

To this end I labour, to glorify the Triune God; to glorify the Father Almighty, Creator of all, to glorify His Son Jesus Christ my Saviour and Hope, and to glorify the Giver of all divine gifts, my Comforter, Guide, Teacher and Friend, God the Holy Spirit. To You be the glory, thrice holy blessed God of Eternity! To You be the glory, now and forevermore. Amen. Amen. Amen.

And here are the thanks I gave to Christ on my old About page:

I remain eternally grateful to my Lord Jesus Christ, the King of the Universe, for shedding His Light upon me and guiding my path – usually without my knowledge – and giving me both the burning desire and the ability to proclaim the neverending wonders of His Holy Word. Oh! The wonders of His Grace! Had He left me to myself, doubtless I’d be dead or wandering aimless and lost through this dark world. Thank you, my Lord!

Your testimonies have made you a liar to God since you have rejected His Love. If you are eternally grateful to the Lord, you will do things in support of Him and not against Him, that makes you a traitor.

So, that's where I was in 2007. How is it possible that I now reject the faith I once believed with such passion? What changed? The answer is really pretty simple. I was "blinded" by the light I saw in the Bible. Anyone who has entered in to the Bible with believing eyes knows how it can capture the soul. It feels alive. It touches chords that resonate down into the deepest parts of ourselves. It is filled with light everywhere you look: the Gospel message shines with its numinous symbolic elements like the Alpha Omega, the Cross, the Dove, the Death and Resurrection of Christ, and on and on it goes. Who wouldn't want to believe such a story? Indeed, the believer wonders how anyone could resist such an amazing Gospel message. And beyond all that, I had the overwhelming witness of the Bible Wheel which seemed to confirm everything about the Bible as the very Word of God. All these thing blinded me to the "dark side" of the Bible. I simply "overlooked" all the problematic passages, errors, contradictions, and moral abominations that didn't fit with the amazingly glorious, and blinding, vision of the Bible as "God's Word."

So here are the the primary issues that conspired to finally convince me that the traditional Christian faith is not true.

You have been blinded by Satan and earthly aspirations. You requires our prayers....

Matthew 13:18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”

Pray that you could be the seed that falls on good soil.

Your constant doubting and testing of the Words of God lead you further into rejecting God....I am so disappointed:

Matthew 4:
4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’”

5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

“‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[c]”

7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[d]”

8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’[e]”

To summarize the above passage:
1. You must live by every word that comes from the mouth of God.
2. Do not test God but trust in Him.
3. Do not be tempted by worldly pleasures but worship the Lord and serve Him only. You cannot serve both God and mammon. Do not put your treasures on earth where moth and rust can destroy..put your treasures in heaven.

Should we question God?
http://www.scripturessay.com/article.php?cat=&id=160

Do we question God because we think we are better than God?
http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/bib...ioningGod.aspx


9 “Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker,
those who are nothing but potsherds
among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
‘What are you making?’
Does your work say,
‘The potter has no hands’?
10 Woe to the one who says to a father,
‘What have you begotten?’
or to a mother,
‘What have you brought to birth?’

1) The Doctrine of Hell

I cannot conceive of a good God who would design an eternal evil in which souls suffer eternal conscious torment. This is a central doctrine accepted by the vast majority of Christians.

Hell is a deterrent for us against being evil and heaven is hope for us in being good and righteous and for our belief in God. I would rather live my life as if there is a God or Hell and die to find out there isn't then to live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is

Many religions have the concept of punishment in Hell for the evil and rewards in Heaven for the good and righteous. This is the central doctrine that the goal of life on earth is a stepping stone to life in heaven and that everyone should strive to achieve that goal. Rightous souls are what God is after and the earth is His farmland for righteous souls:

Matthew 13:24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away. 26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’

28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.

“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’

29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”

The Parables of the Mustard Seed and the Yeast

31 He told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a mustard seed, which a man took and planted in his field. 32 Though it is the smallest of all seeds, yet when it grows, it is the largest of garden plants and becomes a tree, so that the birds come and perch in its branches.”
33 He told them still another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like yeast that a woman took and mixed into about sixty pounds[b] of flour until it worked all through the dough.”


The Parable of the Weeds Explained

36 Then he left the crowd and went into the house. His disciples came to him and said, “Explain to us the parable of the weeds in the field.”
37 He answered, “The one who sowed the good seed is the Son of Man. 38 The field is the world, and the good seed stands for the people of the kingdom. The weeds are the people of the evil one, 39 and the enemy who sows them is the devil. The harvest is the end of the age, and the harvesters are angels.

40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age. 41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil. 42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Whoever has ears, let them hear.

The Parables of the Hidden Treasure and the Pearl

44 “The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field. When a man found it, he hid it again, and then in his joy went and sold all he had and bought that field.
45 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant looking for fine pearls. 46 When he found one of great value, he went away and sold everything he had and bought it.

The Parable of the Net

47 “Once again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was let down into the lake and caught all kinds of fish. 48 When it was full, the fishermen pulled it up on the shore. Then they sat down and collected the good fish in baskets, but threw the bad away. 49 This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous 50 and throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

2) The Bible contains many errors, contradictions, logical absurdities, and moral abominations attributed to God.

This point covers a very large class of problems. Many recent threads deal with them. The most significant to me are the moral abominations attributed to God, such as his command to kill all the men, women, and children of people in Canaan.

I do understand the moral abominations attributed to God that you faced in the Bible, but one does not declare someone guilty unless proven beyond reasonable doubt. If I have a gun in my hand and a dead body beside me does not mean I am the murderer. There are many things which God did which is currently beyond human understanding. We know that His ways and thoughts are higher than us and one day we will know the rightful reason for His "abominable" acts. But what I do know that God has the right to give life and take life; He has the right to create and right to destroy as deemed fit:

Isaiah 45

1 “This is what the LORD says to his anointed,
to Cyrus, whose right hand I take hold of
to subdue nations before him
and to strip kings of their armor,
to open doors before him
so that gates will not be shut:
2 I will go before you
and will level the mountains[a];
I will break down gates of bronze
and cut through bars of iron.
3 I will give you hidden treasures,
riches stored in secret places,
so that you may know that I am the LORD,
the God of Israel, who summons you by name.
4 For the sake of Jacob my servant,
of Israel my chosen,
I summon you by name
and bestow on you a title of honor,
though you do not acknowledge me.
5 I am the LORD, and there is no other;
apart from me there is no God.
I will strengthen you,
though you have not acknowledged me,
6 so that from the rising of the sun
to the place of its setting
people may know there is none besides me.
I am the LORD, and there is no other.
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.

8 “You heavens above, rain down my righteousness;
let the clouds shower it down.
Let the earth open wide,
let salvation spring up,
let righteousness flourish with it;
I, the LORD, have created it.

Does God have the right to life and death?:

Deuteronomy 30:15
See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction.

Deuteronomy 30:19
This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live

Deuteronomy 32:39
“See now that I myself am he! There is no god besides me. I put to death and I bring to life, I have wounded and I will heal, and no one can deliver out of my hand.

Suppose you as parents have the right to create your children and the right to end their life and a right to resurrect them, would ending of the life of your children be seen as abominable since you can resurrect them at will? If your child has done a heinous sin deserving death or beyond corrigible, would you allow your child to be punished? Yes, for the sake of justice and fairness and integrity. What more if you can resurrect your child meted out for the punishment at the appointed time in which you can give him another chance?

3) God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers.
This fact seems incontrovertible and it directly contradicts the central promises of the Bible. It was the "final straw" for me.

There are many prayers that were already answered even before you knew them. Is Rose your wife a result of chance or God's blessings? Is the property and land that you have a result of chance or God's Blessings? Of course, there are unanswered prayers which for whatever reason were not answered, but we always trust that whatever He decides is always for the best of our interest. Even if your prayers are not answered, don't be despair for there is a reward in heaven for your trust, belief and prayers to Him.

Matthew 6:6 But when you pray, go into your room, close the door and pray to your Father, who is unseen. Then your Father, who sees what is done in secret, will reward you. 7 And when you pray, do not keep on babbling like pagans, for they think they will be heard because of their many words. 8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.

God knew all our aspirations before we even ask in our prayers and is willing to give them to you in abundance. Don't we want eternal life and abundance in heaven? Even the apostles were after these!:

27 Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?”

Matthew 19: 28 Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife[e] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.

Luke 12: 22 Then Jesus said to his disciples: “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat; or about your body, what you will wear. 23 For life is more than food, and the body more than clothes. 24 Consider the ravens: They do not sow or reap, they have no storeroom or barn; yet God feeds them. And how much more valuable you are than birds! 25 Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to your life[b]? 26 Since you cannot do this very little thing, why do you worry about the rest?
27 “Consider how the wild flowers grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you, not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. 28 If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today, and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, how much more will he clothe you—you of little faith! 29 And do not set your heart on what you will eat or drink; do not worry about it. 30 For the pagan world runs after all such things, and your Father knows that you need them. 31 But seek his kingdom, and these things will be given to you as well.

32 “Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. 33 Sell your possessions and give to the poor. Provide purses for yourselves that will not wear out, a treasure in heaven that will never fail, where no thief comes near and no moth destroys. 34 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.


May the Love, Wisdom and Blessings of God be with us forevermore. Amen.

[Richard Amiel McGough]

You have obviously lost your first love. Jesus yearn for these people to repent and come back to Him or face punishment:

That's so tempting! Who could refuse an offer like "LOVE ME OR I'LL TORTURE YOU FOREVER!"?

Your testimonies have made you a liar to God since you have rejected His Love. If you are eternally grateful to the Lord, you will do things in support of Him and not against Him, that makes you a traitor.

That's absurd. They do not make me a "liar." They are an accurate representation of what I felt and believed at that time. The fact that my beliefs are now different does not mean that they were lies back then. Your logic is absurd, as usual.

And please try to deal with reality for a change. I am not doing anything "against God." My statements are statements of truth, so if God is "truth" as you believe, then I am supporting God by speaking truth. You would do well to follow suit. I am constantly stunned by how Christians who profess "love of truth" constantly lie, twist, misrepresent, and reject it. And then they accuse those who speak truth of being liars. What godless twitbrains!

You have been blinded by Satan and earthly aspirations. You requires our prayers....

That's a lie. I simply have spoken truth to the best of my ability. You don't like the truth, so you lie and say that I have been blinded by Satan. What evidence do you have? None? Right! That's exactly what I thought. You throw out false accusations without any love for the truth at all. You are acting exactly like the "Satan" character in the Bible. But you don't care, do you? You will write crap and throw false accusations against anyone who disagrees with your personal beliefs.

And then you falsely claim that I have "earthly aspirations." How do you know that? Can you read my mind? You're actions are so typical of arrogant Christians who attack anyone who thinks freely and speaks truth. Don't you realize that you are exposing your religion as a cult when you behave this way in public?

If I have said something that is false, you should expose my error, not invent crazy ideas like some imaginary "devil" has "blinded" me in some non-specified way. Your arguments are pathetic.

Matthew 13:18 'Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.'

Pray that you could be the seed that falls on good soil.

You got it backwards. The person in the parable is not the "seed." The person is the "soil" and the "seed" is the Word of God.

Your constant doubting and testing of the Words of God lead you further into rejecting God....I am so disappointed:

Matthew 4:
4 Jesus answered, 'It is written: [B]‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’'

5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 'If you are the Son of God,' he said, 'throw yourself down. For it is written:

'‘He will command his angels concerning you,
and they will lift you up in their hands,
so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[c]'

7 Jesus answered him, 'It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[d]'

8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 'All this I will give you,' he said, 'if you will bow down and worship me.'

10 Jesus said to him, 'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’[e]'

To summarize the above passage:
1. You must live by every word that comes from the mouth of God.
2. Do not test God but trust in Him.
3. Do not be tempted by worldly pleasures but worship the Lord and serve Him only. You cannot serve both God and mammon. Do not put your treasures on earth where moth and rust can destroy..put your treasures in heaven.

Should we question God?
http://www.scripturessay.com/article.php?cat=&id=160

Do we question God because we think we are better than God?
http://www.cbn.com/spirituallife/bib...ioningGod.aspx


9 'Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker,
those who are nothing but potsherds
among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
‘What are you making?’
Does your work say,
‘The potter has no hands’?
10 Woe to the one who says to a father,
‘What have you begotten?’
or to a mother,
‘What have you brought to birth?’

Great! So Muslims should not question Allah, and Hindus should not question their religion, right? You are advocating IGNORANT MINDLESS CULT MEMBERSHIP. Thanks, but I think I'll pass on your lovely offer. It's almost as good as your idea that God says "LOVE ME OR I'LL TORTURE YOU FOREVER IN HELL!".

Hell is a deterrent for us against being evil and heaven is hope for us in being good and righteous and for our belief in God. I would rather live my life as if there is a God or Hell and die to find out there isn't then to live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is

Hell is not a "deterrent." It is an eternal evil. Any being that would create a hell where souls suffer eternal conscious torment would be a DEVIL. This is obvious to any person with a living heart who actually loves others. The fact that you support the doctrine of hell indicates either that you don't really know what you are saying, or that your heart is as dead and cold as a stone.

Many religions have the concept of punishment in Hell for the evil and rewards in Heaven for the good and righteous.

That's right, and all those religions were made up by people right? Or what, are you saying you believe in Hinudism and Islam? And Atheism too? Your mind is very confused.

This is the central doctrine that the goal of life on earth is a stepping stone to life in heaven and that everyone should strive to achieve that goal. Rightous souls are what God is after and the earth is His farmland for righteous souls:

That's not what the Bible says. All have sinned. There is none righteous. Only Christ is righteous, and he came to save sinners, not the righteous. You have absolutely no understanding of the religion you claim to believe. How then do you differ from an unbeliever? And this brings up the primary absurdity of Christianity. You are supposedly saved by "believing" in Jesus. What if your beliefs are wrong? Suppose you were preached to by some Mormon who believes that Jesus was the brother of Lucifer? Or what about Jehovah Witnesses who deny Jesus is God. How much "truth" do you need to "get right" before God let's you in?

I do understand the moral abominations attributed to God that you faced in the Bible, but one does not declare someone guilty unless proven beyond reasonable doubt. If I have a gun in my hand and a dead body beside me does not mean I am the murderer. There are many things which God did which is currently beyond human understanding. We know that His ways and thoughts are higher than us and one day we will know the rightful reason for His "abominable" acts. But what I do know that God has the right to give life and take life; He has the right to create and right to destroy as deemed fit:

The idea that God's "ways and thoughts are higher" does not mean that they are "lower." And that's the problem. The command to murder every man, women, and child is not "higher" by any possible standard or any future mystical insight. Your argument shows how Christianity corrupts the mind. You are incapable of seeing truth no matter how plain and obvious it is. How utterly pathetic. You make me think of this famous quote by Steven Weinberg:

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

Your cultish mindset is what killed the Jews under Hitler. It is no different. The same logic applies to all CULTS that take over the believers' minds and make them into obedient mindless robots. You think you are obeying God, but in reality you are obeying the ideas of men who rule your religion. But you can't see this because you have chosen to shut down your mind and "believe" anything you think is "in the Bible" without any critical thought at all. Unfortunately, you can't see the great irony - HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU ARE UNDERSTANDING THE BIBLE CORRECTLY? You can't know this, because you have shut off your mind and chosen to be an obedient mindless robot.

I wish I could help you see the irony. If you don't think for yourself, then you are being controlled by other men who run your religion. You are not obeying "God" but men. You have no choice - you must think for yourself and judge what is true or false in the Bible, or you will be a mindless robot controlled by the ideas of other people.

Suppose you as parents have the right to create your children and the right to end their life and a right to resurrect them, would ending of the life of your children be seen as abominable since you can resurrect them at will? If your child has done a heinous sin deserving death or beyond corrigible, would you allow your child to be punished? Yes, for the sake of justice and fairness and integrity. What more if you can resurrect your child meted out for the punishment at the appointed time in which you can give him another chance?

If I "suppose" that I had the powers of God as you suggest, I can tell you I would be nothing like the God portrayed in the Bible. For example, it is absolutely inconceivable that I would punish my children in hell forever for the "crime" of disobeying me, or worse, for not "believing" in me when I have never shown myself to them or answered any of their letters. The moment you suggest human analogies for God, you expose him as a tyrant. No human would be respected who demanded worship! What a crazy ego trip.

There are many prayers that were already answered even before you knew them. Is Rose your wife a result of chance or God's blessings? Is the property and land that you have a result of chance or God's Blessings? Of course, there are unanswered prayers which for whatever reason were not answered, but we always trust that whatever He decides is always for the best of our interest. Even if your prayers are not answered, don't be despair for there is a reward in heaven for your trust, belief and prayers to Him.

Man, don't you have any understanding about anything? My neighbor is a Muslim, and he lives in a mansion and has millions of dollars. Does that prove Allah is the true God? I can't believe I have to explain these things to you. I feel like I'm talking to a child. But you don't care. You refuse to learn. Truth means nothing to you. You would have seen all the errors in your post if you cared about truth.

God knew all our aspirations before we even ask in our prayers and is willing to give them to you in abundance. Don't we want eternal life and abundance in heaven? Even the apostles were after these!:

Sorry, but that is simply not true. Everyone knows that God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers. If we rely on God for our welfare in this life, we will die. The proof is painfully obvious. Take 100 atheists and 100 Christians with the plague. Let the Christians pray, and give the athesist antibiotics. Who lives? Who dies? Case closed.

[CWH]

That's so tempting! Who could refuse an offer like "LOVE ME OR I'LL TORTURE YOU FOREVER!"?

Wrong, the correct interpretation is "LOVE ME OR I WILL PUNISH YOU IF YOU DON'T REPENT (Not Torture Forever)". God always give us a chance for forgiveness by repentance, if not why Jesus always called the Jews to repent?....Read the Bible!

That's absurd. They do not make me a "liar." They are an accurate representation of what I felt and believed at that time. The fact that my beliefs are now different does not mean that they were lies back then. Your logic is absurd, as usual.

So your words "Eternally grateful to the Lord" lasted only 4 years! If this is not a lie, what is it? Eternal means eternal and not a few years. You have lost your first love and I am saying with brotherly concern.

And please try to deal with reality for a change. I am not doing anything "against God." My statements are statements of truth, so if God is "truth" as you believe, then I am supporting God by speaking truth. You would do well to follow suit. I am constantly stunned by how Christians who profess "love of truth" constantly lie, twist, misrepresent, and reject it. And then they accuse those who speak truth of being liars. What godless twitbrains!

How do we know your statements are truth? Did God told you so?

That's a lie. I simply have spoken truth to the best of my ability. You don't like the truth, so you lie and say that I have been blinded by Satan. What evidence do you have? None? Right! That's exactly what I thought. You throw out false accusations without any love for the truth at all. You are acting exactly like the "Satan" character in the Bible. But you don't care, do you? You will write crap and throw false accusations against anyone who disagrees with your personal beliefs.

How do we know you are speaking the truth?... neither have you any evidence to prove so. Does someone blinded by Satan knows that he has been blinded? I don't know myself, do you?
Now who is mocking who?....and I never use such words as crap and accusation and brainless and what not. Use whatever words you want; I am saying out of brotherly love and not in contempt.

And then you falsely claim that I have "earthly aspirations." How do you know that? Can you read my mind? You're actions are so typical of arrogant Christians who attack anyone who thinks freely and speaks truth. Don't you realize that you are exposing your religion as a cult when you behave this way in public?

What cult? I don't even have a follower. Do you know me? Neither can you read my mind. I am not attacking anyone personally but attacking their words and belief which are anti-God. I detest people who say things against God. If you truly and "eternally" love God, you will not say things against God or His people. All of us have earthly aspirations do we?...Important thing is to strive for all these aspirations with God and Love your neighbor in mind otherwise it is considered as selfish aspirations and greed.

If I have said something that is false, you should expose my error, not invent crazy ideas like some imaginary "devil" has "blinded" me in some non-specified way. Your arguments are pathetic.

Are you saying that people who believe in God and Satan are crazy? Wow!...That means almost the whole population of the world and only a few handful are sane. That's insane! I guess Jesus was insane too for He believed in the imaginary devil.

You got it backwards. The person in the parable is not the "seed." The person is the "soil" and the "seed" is the Word of God.

Read the passage properly! The seed is people:
20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy.

Great! So Muslims should not question Allah, and Hindus should not question their religion, right? You are advocating IGNORANT MINDLESS CULT MEMBERSHIP. Thanks, but I think I'll pass on your lovely offer. It's almost as good as your idea that God says "LOVE ME OR I'LL TORTURE YOU FOREVER IN HELL!".

Wrong, the correct interpretation is "LOVE ME OR I WILL PUNISH YOU IF YOU DON'T REPENT (Not Torture Forever)".

Hell is not a "deterrent." It is an eternal evil. Any being that would create a hell where souls suffer eternal conscious torment would be a DEVIL. This is obvious to any person with a living heart who actually loves others. The fact that you support the doctrine of hell indicates either that you don't really know what you are saying, or that your heart is as dead and cold as a stone.

Jesus warned people about Hell and advice people to fear God, so was Jesus a Devil also? That's absurd of the highest degree:
Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

That's right, and all those religions were made up by people right? Or what, are you saying you believe in Hinudism and Islam? And Atheism too? Your mind is very confused.

Look at the Big picture, it doesn't matter which religion you believed. Important thing is that one should try to be righteous and repent of your sin and chances are that one will be forgiven. Righteous souls is what God is after. Now who is more confused? I have never veered from Futurism to Preterism to Non-theism.

That's not what the Bible says. All have sinned. There is none righteous. Only Christ is righteous, and he came to save sinners, not the righteous. You have absolutely no understanding of the religion you claim to believe. How then do you differ from an unbeliever? And this brings up the primary absurdity of Christianity. You are supposedly saved by "believing" in Jesus. What if your beliefs are wrong? Suppose you were preached to by some Mormon who believes that Jesus was the brother of Lucifer? Or what about Jehovah Witnesses who deny Jesus is God. How much "truth" do you need to "get right" before God let's you in?

Haven't you read the Bible?... Seek ye first the kingdom of God and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS and all these things (aspirations) will be given unto you. Jesus came to seek the sinners to repent so that they can be saved!:
Luke 5:32
I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

Where in the Bible did it says, "There is none righteous. Only Christ is righteous"? You have confused righteousness with perfection. There is none perfect except God. There were righteous people:

Matthew 5:10
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:20
For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Matthew 5:45
that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

The idea that God's "ways and thoughts are higher" does not mean that they are "lower." And that's the problem. The command to murder every man, women, and child is not "higher" by any possible standard or any future mystical insight. Your argument shows how Christianity corrupts the mind. You are incapable of seeing truth no matter how plain and obvious it is. How utterly pathetic. You make me think of this famous quote by Steven Weinberg:

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

Your cultish mindset is what killed the Jews under Hitler. It is no different. The same logic applies to all CULTS that take over the believers' minds and make them into obedient mindless robots. You think you are obeying God, but in reality you are obeying the ideas of men who rule your religion. But you can't see this because you have chosen to shut down your mind and "believe" anything you think is "in the Bible" without any critical thought at all. Unfortunately, you can't see the great irony - HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU ARE UNDERSTANDING THE BIBLE CORRECTLY? You can't know this, because you have shut off your mind and chosen to be an obedient mindless robot.

Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black. And how about you, HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU ARE UNDERSTANDING THE BIBLE CORRECTLY? You have already shut your mind to the passage,"Thou shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God"....what is there to say about understanding the Bible correctly?

I wish I could help you see the irony. If you don't think for yourself, then you are being controlled by other men who run your religion. You are not obeying "God" but men. You have no choice - you must think for yourself and judge what is true or false in the Bible, or you will be a mindless robot controlled by the ideas of other people.

Thank you and I too wish I could help you see the irony. I am saying from the brotherly love point of view. You mean you can judge what is true and false in the Bible and know what passages written in the Bible were from uninspired men? Wow, you must have received divine revelations, my special friend.

If I "suppose" that I had the powers of God as you suggest, I can tell you I would be nothing like the God portrayed in the Bible. For example, it is absolutely inconceivable that I would punish my children in hell forever for the "crime" of disobeying me, or worse, for not "believing" in me when I have never shown myself to them or answered any of their letters. The moment you suggest human analogies for God, you expose him as a tyrant. No human would be respected who demanded worship! What a crazy ego trip.

If I have powers of God, I will allow my children to be punished for Heinous crime they committed until the day that they truly repented And then raised them up and forgive them. That's the righteous thing o do. No parents would allow their children to be punished forever in hell and even for minor crimes as you suggested. To even think of it is totally absurd.

Man, don't you have any understanding about anything? My neighbor is a Muslim, and he lives in a mansion and has millions of dollars. Does that prove Allah is the true God? I can't believe I have to explain these things to you. I feel like I'm talking to a child. But you don't care. You refuse to learn. Truth means nothing to you. You would have seen all the errors in your post if you cared about truth.

I don't care even if Bill Gates is living next to you. What I do care is that we should not store our treasures on earth where moth and rust can destroy but store our treasures in heaven. We cannot serve both God and mammon. Must I have to tell you all these?

Sorry, but that is simply not true. Everyone knows that God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers. If we rely on God for our welfare in this life, we will die. The proof is painfully obvious. Take 100 atheists and 100 Christians with the plague. Let the Christians pray, and give the athesist antibiotics. Who lives? Who dies? Case closed.

Yes, we should pray and trust God but we should also be prudent and do not put God to the test. God helps those who helps themselves....don't expect God to totally spoon-feed you. Isn't this what Jesus said, "Those who are well do not requires a physician". And don't put too much faith in antibiotics, it is the body that fights against infections; the antibiotics only help. If the germs have become resistant to antibiotics, all the mentioned 100 atheists and Christians would have died anyway with the plague... prayer or not. And the Christians who died may be resurrected for their faith and trust in God, whereas for the atheist....I don't know. I rather live and die believing there is a God than to say,"There is no God" and die only to realize that God exists.

Trust God with all your heart and soul, Amen.

[Brother Les]

Ram
So here are the the primary issues that conspired to finally convince me that the traditional Christian faith is not true.

1) The Doctrine of Hell
I cannot conceive of a good God who would design an eternal evil in which souls suffer eternal conscious torment. This is a central doctrine accepted by the vast majority of Christians.

2) The Bible contains many errors, contradictions, logical absurdities, and moral abominations attributed to God.
This point covers a very large class of problems. Many recent threads deal with them. The most significant to me are the moral abominations attributed to God, such as his command to kill all the men, women, and children of people in Canaan.

3) God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers.
This fact seems incontrovertible and it directly contradicts the central promises of the Bible. It was the "final straw" for me.

I would be delighted to dig into these issues with anyone interested.
__________________

.

This seems to be 'traditional' Christianity. So what...... no one person can be 'traditional' in all things. You are most certainly not 'traditional'.... and I believe that is a good thing. Some would say 'Heretic'... but I say, one who stands ouside of Orthodoxy'.... (what ever the hell 'orthodoxy' may be).

1) the 'orthodox' teaching of hell is obsurd.... hell is no more (if there ever was one in modern mans minds eye)

2) I question god commands to 'kill' all of the men, women, and children of people in Canaan. How do you 'convert' people that you have killed... you cann't, something is very fishy about the inturp.

3) I don't think that I have ever had a 'prayer' answered in the way that I wanted it answered, but many times I look back in my life and 'wonder'.... was that...? naaawww.....

[Richard Amiel McGough]

This seems to be 'traditional' Christianity. So what...... no one person can be 'traditional' in all things. You are most certainly not 'traditional'.... and I believe that is a good thing. Some would say 'Heretic'... but I say, one who stands ouside of Orthodoxy'.... (what ever the hell 'orthodoxy' may be).

1) the 'orthodox' teaching of hell is obsurd.... hell is no more (if there ever was one in modern mans minds eye)

2) I question god commands to 'kill' all of the men, women, and children of people in Canaan. How do you 'convert' people that you have killed... you cann't, something is very fishy about the inturp.

3) I don't think that I have ever had a 'prayer' answered in the way that I wanted it answered, but many times I look back in my life and 'wonder'.... was that...? naaawww.....

He there Brother Les,

Very interesting answer. Thanks! So if it's "OK" not to believe in "traditionalist Christianity" is it also OK to no believe in any of it? Do you think it matters if a person is Christian or not?

As for you numbered points:

1) We agree! And that's one reason why I reject "traditionalist Christianity"

2) I don't see any way out via re-interpretation. The text is too plain, and there are too many examples.

3) I understand. And that's why I always state my position very carefully by saying that "God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers." And this means that all the statements in the Bible that emphatically promise that God answers prayers and that exhort us to rely on him for our earthly welfare are false.

Great chatting,

Richard

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Wrong, the correct interpretation is "LOVE ME OR I WILL PUNISH YOU IF YOU DON'T REPENT (Not Torture Forever)". God always give us a chance for forgiveness by repentance, if not why Jesus always called the Jews to repent?....Read the Bible!

Wow - I had no idea that you rejected the doctrine of hell. Fascinating. Have you explained this to your pastor? I'm sure he'd be rather interested to know that you reject the orthodox Christian faith.

So your words "Eternally grateful to the Lord" lasted only 4 years! If this is not a lie, what is it? Eternal means eternal and not a few years. You have lost your first love and I am saying with brotherly concern.

Obviously, it was a mistake, not a lie. A lie is defined as stating something that you know is false. I didn't know it was false at the time I wrote it. I thought I would always be grateful, and that's what I said. The fact that I was wrong does not mean I lied. You really need to learn English better.

How do we know your statements are truth?

The same way you know anything is true. Unfortunately, you seem particularly challenged in that area. This is a very common malady amongst Christians because they are taught falsehoods all day long, like the earth is only 6000 years old, or evolution is false, or Adam and Eve were the first humans, and on and on it goes. Then they are taught "apologetics" which is little more than a course in how to twist words to avoid truth. It's very sad.

I am not attacking anyone personally but attacking their words and belief which are anti-God. I detest people who say things against God.

I have never said a word "against God." Everything I have said is about the things the Bible says about God. I've explained this many times, but you don't understand. Why do you persist in such obvious error?

If I have said something that is false, you should expose my error, not invent crazy ideas like some imaginary "devil" has "blinded" me in some non-specified way. Your arguments are pathetic.

Are you saying that people who believe in God and Satan are crazy? Wow!...That means almost the whole population of the world and only a few handful are sane. That's insane! I guess Jesus was insane too for He believed in the imaginary devil.

No, I did not say that "people who believe in God and Satan are crazy." Please re-read my comment. You asserted that I have been "blinded" but you never stated exactly what OBSERVABLE FACTS OF REALITY I have failed to see. That's why I said your argument was pathetic. It contained no actual content. Nothing for me to understand or even think about. Just the silly and unsupported assertion that I have been "blinded by Satan." Can't you see why that's a lousy argument?

You got it backwards. The person in the parable is not the "seed." The person is the "soil" and the "seed" is the Word of God.

Read the passage properly! The seed is people:
20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy.

Again, you need to work on your English. The verse states:

Matthew 13:20 "But he who received the seed on stony places, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy;

He who received the seed is not the seed. The seed is defined in the parallel passage in Luke:

Luke 8:11 "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

The soil represents the person, and the seed represents the Word of God.

And as soil receives seed, so a person receives the Word of God.

Like I said, you got it backwards.

Hell is not a "deterrent." It is an eternal evil. Any being that would create a hell where souls suffer eternal conscious torment would be a DEVIL. This is obvious to any person with a living heart who actually loves others. The fact that you support the doctrine of hell indicates either that you don't really know what you are saying, or that your heart is as dead and cold as a stone.

Jesus warned people about Hell and advice people to fear God, so was Jesus a Devil also? That's absurd of the highest degree:
Matthew 10:28
Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

Now wait a minute! First you deny hell, and now you say Jesus taught it??? Please make up you mind. Are you saying that hell is temporary? Can people get out of hell if they repent? What exactly are you teaching?

That's right, and all those religions were made up by people right? Or what, are you saying you believe in Hinudism and Islam? And Atheism too? Your mind is very confused.

Look at the Big picture, it doesn't matter which religion you believed. Important thing is that one should try to be righteous and repent of your sin and chances are that one will be forgiven. Righteous souls is what God is after.

Great! You think Islam and Atheism are just fine. All I need to do is try to repent from any wrongdoing and be a "good person." Man, that's easy. So now you are rejecting another aspect of orthodox Christianity. You don't believe in eternal hell, and you don't think people need to believe in Jesus to be saved. This is great! It seems you are no more Christian than I am.

That's not what the Bible says. All have sinned. There is none righteous. Only Christ is righteous, and he came to save sinners, not the righteous. You have absolutely no understanding of the religion you claim to believe. How then do you differ from an unbeliever? And this brings up the primary absurdity of Christianity. You are supposedly saved by "believing" in Jesus. What if your beliefs are wrong? Suppose you were preached to by some Mormon who believes that Jesus was the brother of Lucifer? Or what about Jehovah Witnesses who deny Jesus is God. How much "truth" do you need to "get right" before God let's you in?

Haven't you read the Bible?... Seek ye first the kingdom of God and HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS and all these things (aspirations) will be given unto you. Jesus came to seek the sinners to repent so that they can be saved!:
Luke 5:32
I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.'

Where in the Bible did it says, "There is none righteous. Only Christ is righteous"? You have confused righteousness with perfection. There is none perfect except God. There were righteous people:

And you asked me if I have read the Bible? Dude! I'm embarrassed for you.

Romans 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. 10 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; 11 There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. 12 They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one." 13 "Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit"; "The poison of asps is under their lips"; 14 "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness." 15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 Destruction and misery are in their ways; 17 And the way of peace they have not known." 18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes." 19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 21 ¶ But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

But on the other hand, I can understand your confusion, because the Bible contradicts itself on this topic. There are many verses that say certain people are righteous, and there are verses that say no one is righteous. So you can take your pick. Myself, I see this as an obvious contradiction that proves the Bible has errors. And it is part of a much larger problem, because the idea that people become "righteous" by merely believing in Jesus destroys the meaning of the word. And it also contradicts that verses that say a righteous person is someone who does righteousness, not someone who merely believes in Jesus.

I do understand the moral abominations attributed to God that you faced in the Bible, but one does not declare someone guilty unless proven beyond reasonable doubt. If I have a gun in my hand and a dead body beside me does not mean I am the murderer. There are many things which God did which is currently beyond human understanding. We know that His ways and thoughts are higher than us and one day we will know the rightful reason for His "abominable" acts. But what I do know that God has the right to give life and take life; He has the right to create and right to destroy as deemed fit:

The idea that God's "ways and thoughts are higher" does not mean that they are "lower." And that's the problem. The command to murder every man, women, and child is not "higher" by any possible standard or any future mystical insight. Your argument shows how Christianity corrupts the mind. You are incapable of seeing truth no matter how plain and obvious it is. How utterly pathetic. You make me think of this famous quote by Steven Weinberg:

With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.

Your cultish mindset is what killed the Jews under Hitler. It is no different. The same logic applies to all CULTS that take over the believers' minds and make them into obedient mindless robots. You think you are obeying God, but in reality you are obeying the ideas of men who rule your religion. But you can't see this because you have chosen to shut down your mind and "believe" anything you think is "in the Bible" without any critical thought at all. Unfortunately, you can't see the great irony - HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU ARE UNDERSTANDING THE BIBLE CORRECTLY? You can't know this, because you have shut off your mind and chosen to be an obedient mindless robot.

Sounds like the pot calling the kettle black. And how about you, HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU ARE UNDERSTANDING THE BIBLE CORRECTLY? You have already shut your mind to the passage,"Thou shall not live by bread alone but by every word that comes from the mouth of God"....what is there to say about understanding the Bible correctly?

You did not understand my point. I am not the one advocating BLIND BELIEF IN THE BIBLE. That's what you are doing. You are saying we are supposed to just "believe" whatever it says, unless it says something obviously ridiculous or evil, in which case we are supposed to "believe" it doesn't really mean those things and that they will be revealed in the afterlife as something actually "good." Don't you get it? My question "HOW DO YOU KNOW YOU ARE UNDERSTANDING THE BIBLE CORRECTLY" was supposed to make you realize that you are playing a double-standard with the Bible. You believe what it says only when it agrees with what you want it to say. If it says something you don't like or don't believe, then you say "God will explain it after I die." With that kind of logic, a Muslim could "believe" everything in the Koran, like when it says that Jesus is not the son of God. You destroy your mind when you protect the Bible from the truth this way.

And I just noticed the great irony. You say I am blind when in fact you are the one who has chosen to BLINDLY believe the Bible.

I wish I could help you see the irony. If you don't think for yourself, then you are being controlled by other men who run your religion. You are not obeying "God" but men. You have no choice - you must think for yourself and judge what is true or false in the Bible, or you will be a mindless robot controlled by the ideas of other people.

Thank you and I too wish I could help you see the irony. I am saying from the brotherly love point of view. You mean you can judge what is true and false in the Bible and know what passages written in the Bible were from uninspired men? Wow, you must have received divine revelations, my special friend.

Again, you missed my point. Your answer indicates that you are not even aware that you need to think for yourself! That's scary!

And it does not take "divine revelations" to know that the Bible is wrong when it says that there is a solid dome "firmament" holding up the "waters that are above." And it doesn't take "divine revelations" to know that the Bible is wrong when it says that God created the sun and moon on the fourth day of creation. Etc., etc., etc..

If I "suppose" that I had the powers of God as you suggest, I can tell you I would be nothing like the God portrayed in the Bible. For example, it is absolutely inconceivable that I would punish my children in hell forever for the "crime" of disobeying me, or worse, for not "believing" in me when I have never shown myself to them or answered any of their letters. The moment you suggest human analogies for God, you expose him as a tyrant. No human would be respected who demanded worship! What a crazy ego trip.

If I have powers of God, I will allow my children to be punished for Heinous crime they committed until the day that they truly repented And then raised them up and forgive them. That's the righteous thing o do. No parents would allow their children to be punished forever in hell and even for minor crimes as you suggested. To even think of it is totally absurd.

Great! So you are a UNIVERSALIST! Everyone gets saved. No one needs to believe in Jesus. Like I said, you don't seem to be any more Christian than me.

And you haven't dealt with the fact that if God is anything like a real "parent" then he is an "absent parent" who has abandoned his children. Think about that for a while.

There are many prayers that were already answered even before you knew them. Is Rose your wife a result of chance or God's blessings? Is the property and land that you have a result of chance or God's Blessings? Of course, there are unanswered prayers which for whatever reason were not answered, but we always trust that whatever He decides is always for the best of our interest. Even if your prayers are not answered, don't be despair for there is a reward in heaven for your trust, belief and prayers to Him.

Man, don't you have any understanding about anything? My neighbor is a Muslim, and he lives in a mansion and has millions of dollars. Does that prove Allah is the true God? I can't believe I have to explain these things to you. I feel like I'm talking to a child. But you don't care. You refuse to learn. Truth means nothing to you. You would have seen all the errors in your post if you cared about truth.

I don't care even if Bill Gates is living next to you. What I do care is that we should not store our treasures on earth where moth and rust can destroy but store our treasures in heaven. We cannot serve both God and mammon. Must I have to tell you all these?

Your answer is a total non-sequitur. You said that my prosperity should be understood as a blessing from God and proof that he exists and answers prayers. So I asked if the Muslim's prosperity should be understood as a blessing from Allah, and proof of Allah. But you didn't understand, and you changed to the topic to "can't serve God and mammon." You forgot that YOU were the one who said "property and land" was a blessing from God! Your mind is totally confused. You need to think more about what you are reading and writing. My arguments cannot be refuted with such sloppy thinking.

Sorry, but that is simply not true. Everyone knows that God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers. If we rely on God for our welfare in this life, we will die. The proof is painfully obvious. Take 100 atheists and 100 Christians with the plague. Let the Christians pray, and give the athesist antibiotics. Who lives? Who dies? Case closed.

Yes, we should pray and trust God but we should also be prudent and do not put God to the test. God helps those who helps themselves....don't expect God to totally spoon-feed you. Isn't this what Jesus said, "Those who are well do not requires a physician". And don't put too much faith in antibiotics, it is the body that fights against infections; the antibiotics only help. If the germs have become resistant to antibiotics, all the mentioned 100 atheists and Christians would have died anyway with the plague... prayer or not. And the Christians who died may be resurrected for their faith and trust in God, whereas for the atheist....I don't know. I rather live and die believing there is a God than to say,"There is no God" and die only to realize that God exists.

Trust God with all your heart and soul, Amen.

The Bible does not say that "God helps those who helps themselves." And I am not saying that we should "expect God to totally spoon-feed us." I am saying that there is absolutely no reason to "rely on God" for anything because God does not, as a general rule, answer prayers. He was perfectly willing to let MILLIONS of people die who were saved by antibiotics. The fact that the germs evolve a resistance is utterly irrelevant, and I have seen you bring up that ridiculous point before. This indicates a gross lack of logic in your thinking. You should be embarrassed and ashamed. And you should admit this point or everyone reading will see that you YOU STUBBORNLY PERSIST IN KNOWN ERROR! Is this how you "serve God?"

I really think it is important that you begin to seek truth Cheow. You don't have to agree with me, but you do need to begin to agree with reality.

All the best.