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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by james.hopkins View Post
    I'm sure that most of you are familiar with Paul's thoughts in 1Cor 13:8-10:

    8 Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away.
    Hi James,

    What about knowledge? You did not mention knowledge. Has it ceased?

    Regarding prophecy:

    But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. (1Co 14:3-4)

    The gift of prophecy has 3 purposes. To edify, encourage and comfort.

    This is the NT definition of prophecy. No where does the NT define prophecy as foretelling. The church is edified and built up when they are directed towards Christ.

    Paul tells us he wishes we all would prophesy ( 1 Corinthians 14:5) because it builds up the whole church (congregation).

    Today, many use prophecy like it is akin to fortune telling.

    There is no other book like the Bible in the world where you have to know the Author to understand the book. If Christianity were the religion of the Book then it would be no different than any other religion in the world. But, Christianity is Christ! It is the dynamic, personal Spirit of God functioning in man.

  2. #12
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    heb13-13
    Paul tells us he wishes we all would prophesy ( 1 Corinthians 14:5) because it builds up the whole church (congregation).

    Today, many use prophecy like it is akin to fortune telling.
    Are you a first century Corinthian? I think not..... in this verse Paul is not talking to any one post Parousia.


    Hi James,

    What about knowledge? You did not mention knowledge. Has it ceased?
    Yes, the Knowledge that was spoken about in 1Cor. 14:5 has 'ceased'. The Preaching of the Gospel is the 'Good News Coming'.... When that of what you wish for has arrived, you need to stop looking for it. The 'Knowledge' of what you need to know to 'see it'.... is no longer relavant because it is 'Here'.




    Proverbs 13:
    12 Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life.
    Brother Les

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Les View Post
    Are you a first century Corinthian? I think not..... in this verse Paul is not talking to any one post Parousia.




    Yes, the Knowledge that was spoken about in 1Cor. 14:5 has 'ceased'. The Preaching of the Gospel is the 'Good News Coming'.... When that of what you wish for has arrived, you need to stop looking for it. The 'Knowledge' of what you need to know to 'see it'.... is no longer relavant because it is 'Here'.


    Proverbs 13:
    12 Hope deferred maketh the heart sick: but when the desire cometh, it is a tree of life.
    Ok, thanks. I see now what you are basing your opinions on.

    Rick
    Last edited by heb13-13; 11-03-2011 at 11:52 AM.

    There is no other book like the Bible in the world where you have to know the Author to understand the book. If Christianity were the religion of the Book then it would be no different than any other religion in the world. But, Christianity is Christ! It is the dynamic, personal Spirit of God functioning in man.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by james.hopkins View Post
    Hi Beck, I also believe that the tongues spoken were known languages. At least we certainly get that impression from the Acts 2 account.

    If I may, I would like to approach the subject of tongues from the view point that that tongues have ceased.

    I'm sure that most of you are familiar with Paul's thoughts in 1Cor 13:8-10:

    8 Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away.
    9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part;
    10 but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away.
    Thanks for joining in this discussion. As toward the purpose of this thread is that of the quoted 'unknown' tongue given in 1 Cor. 14:26-32

    The penetcostal churches see this 'unknown' tongue as given by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit which speaks through an individual to relay a message from God to his people. They refer to the tongue as being a heavenly language. Something like what Paul menioned of himself in 1 Cor.13:1 that of speaking the language of men and of angels. I've come to realize that many times when 'angels' is used it denotes messengers rather that what we think of an angels from heaven.

    I rather think it's how Paul amonished the church when coming together if all speak with tongues, and there came those that where 'unlearned' [uneducated having no knowledge of those tongues] will they not understand and say that you are mad?

    It seems to be that same amonishment in verses 26-32 for if an man is lead by the Spirit to speak in a different language then a process of two and no more that three having each an interperter so to edify the whole church. That is how I read it anyway.

    I see Paul drawing upon at least two Old Testament prophecies for his statement. The first is found in Daniel 9:24:

    24 Seventy weeks are decreed upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy.

    And the second is found in Zech 13:1-4:

    1 In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for uncleanness.
    2 And it shall come to pass in that day, saith Jehovah of hosts, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they shall no more be remembered; and also I will cause the prophets and the unclean spirit to pass out of the land.
    3 And it shall come to pass that, when any shall yet prophesy, then his father and his mother that begat him shall say unto him, Thou shalt not live; for thou speakest lies in the name of Jehovah; and his father and his mother that begat him shall thrust him through when he prophesieth.
    4 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the prophets shall be ashamed every one of his vision, when he prophesieth; neither shall they wear a hairy mantle to deceive:

    Some of you have come to the understanding that in order for the New Covenant to be given, the Old Covenant had to be accomplished or completed. Lk 21:22 is a verse that works well for me. Jesus in speaking of the desolation of Jerusalem, said: "For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." Daniel and Zechariah are for me part of the writings of which Jesus is referring and which must be fulfilled.

    I have noted on this list some comments on Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy and I think that most of you see that this prophecy has its fulfillment with the desolation of Jerusalem. For we note in Dan 9:26, "And after the threescore and two weeks shall the anointed one be cut off, and shall have nothing: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and even unto the end shall be war; desolations are determined."

    Jesus also notes in his prophecy in Mt 24 that Daniel's prophecy about the abomination of desolation would be fulfilled before that generation passed away. (Mt 24:15, 34). I would see the parallel to this in Luke as being "all things written" as applying to what Jesus said about Daniel's prophecy.

    One of the things that Dan 9:24 lists as having fulfillment in the 70 weeks is "to seal up vision and prophecy." We know that on Pentecost that there was an outpouring of vision and prophecy which continued throughout the apostles' ministry. This surely was not the time of the fulfillment of the 70 weeks, but that time would surely come with the desolation of Jerusalem. And this is the time when vision and prophecy would be sealed up.

    This is the same time as given by Zech 13. A fountain is opened for sin and uncleanness. In that day the prophet and unclean spirit would be removed from the land. This is the time for the completion of "an end of sin" which is also in Daniel's 70 weeks prophecy. Some see this at the cross, but I think you can see that that really don't fit well there. Especially since "vision and prophecy" have to fit into the scenario. And now in this passage when the prophets pass from the land, a fountain is opened for "sin and uncleanness."

    Paul, then, in 1Cor 13 sees a time for prophecy and tongues to cease. It comes at the time of the "Perfect," which may also translate "End", "Finish," or "Completion." That End would for me be the End of the Age of which the apostles asked in Mt 24:3 (what is the sign of your coming and the end of the age?), and of which Christ said, "This gospel of the kingdom would be preached to the whole world and then the end would come." (Mt 24:14). I see Jesus saying that the end of the Mosaic Age would occur at the desolation of Jerusalem.

    Your thoughts,

    Jim Hopkins

    I would agree that when that perfect man was completed which came about by the destruction of Jerusalem where would be no more need to prophesy.

    My question would be then how to apply the ceasing of tongues? It would seem that relates to the gospel message according to how Paul used tongues in 1 Cor.13:1.
    Beck

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by heb13-13 View Post
    Hi James,

    What about knowledge? You did not mention knowledge. Has it ceased?

    Regarding prophecy:

    But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. (1Co 14:3-4)

    The gift of prophecy has 3 purposes. To edify, encourage and comfort.

    This is the NT definition of prophecy. No where does the NT define prophecy as foretelling. The church is edified and built up when they are directed towards Christ.

    Paul tells us he wishes we all would prophesy ( 1 Corinthians 14:5) because it builds up the whole church (congregation).

    Today, many use prophecy like it is akin to fortune telling.
    Quote Originally Posted by heb13-13 View Post
    Hi James,

    What about knowledge? You did not mention knowledge. Has it ceased?

    Regarding prophecy:

    But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort. He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church. (1Co 14:3-4)

    The gift of prophecy has 3 purposes. To edify, encourage and comfort.

    This is the NT definition of prophecy. No where does the NT define prophecy as foretelling. The church is edified and built up when they are directed towards Christ.

    Paul tells us he wishes we all would prophesy ( 1 Corinthians 14:5) because it builds up the whole church (congregation).

    Today, many use prophecy like it is akin to fortune telling.

    Hi Heb 13:13, Yes, knowledge also passes away as Paul states. I have no problem with your definition of Prophecy nor with its purpose within the Body of Christ.

    Notice also that Paul taught that certain positions within the Body also pass away. In Eph 4:11-13, Paul writes:

    11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
    12 for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:
    13 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

    I work in the passing away of the prophets and apostles with the end of the age in 70 AD.

    Where do the prophets pass away for you?

    Jim Hopkins

  6. #16
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    I work in the passing away of the prophets and apostles with the end of the age in 70 AD.

    Where do the prophets pass away for you?

    Jim Hopkins

    When Heaven and Earth pass.

    17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

    18For verily I say unto you, Till Heaven and Earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
    Brother Les

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by james.hopkins View Post
    I work in the passing away of the prophets and apostles with the end of the age in 70 AD.

    Where do the prophets pass away for you?

    Jim Hopkins
    Hi Jim,
    In my understanding it is when we are looking at Jesus face to face and eating from the tree of life and drinking from river in the heavenly city.

    Re 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
    Re 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

    Prophecy is not merely seeing the future, it is interpreting scripture. We are learning to interpret and understand it as Jesus did. In other words we are learning to hear from him.
    Here in the very last chapter of Revelation Jesus is still "testifying."

    Re 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

    Re 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

    The testamony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Until all that hear, (because they are the ones being testified to) vs. 22:18 have come to the full realization of what it is Christ has to tell us and show us there is still the need of prophecy.
    Because Jesus still has things to teach and show us.

    Bob

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by james.hopkins View Post
    Hi Heb 13:13, Yes, knowledge also passes away as Paul states. I have no problem with your definition of Prophecy nor with its purpose within the Body of Christ.

    Notice also that Paul taught that certain positions within the Body also pass away. In Eph 4:11-13, Paul writes:

    11 And he gave some to be apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
    12 for the perfecting of the saints, unto the work of ministering, unto the building up of the body of Christ:
    13 till we all attain unto the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a fullgrown man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

    I work in the passing away of the prophets and apostles with the end of the age in 70 AD.

    Where do the prophets pass away for you?

    Jim Hopkins

    I agree and thanks for clarifying.
    Beck

  9. #19
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    Speaking in Tongues

    I don't believe tongues have ceased, or the gift of knowledge, or the gift of prophecy, but Paul is emphasising love above all three.


    1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth:

    but whether [there be] prophecies, they shall fail;

    whether [there be] tongues, they shall cease;

    whether [there be] knowledge, it shall vanish away.

    9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

    10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

    11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things.

    12 For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face:
    now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.



    That which is perfect (complete) is when this corruption has put on incorruption, and this mortality has put on immortality - when death is swallowed up in victory.


    70AD doesn't do it for me.
    O Thou Who camest from above, the pure celestial fire to impart,
    Kindle a flame of sacred love upon the mean altar of my heart.

    Charles Wesley


    he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
    12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner;
    but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire. Matthew 3


    http://smallchurchmusic1.com/MP3-201...no-128-CAM.mp3

  10. #20
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    Charisma
    That which is perfect (complete) is when this corruption has put on incorruption, and this mortality has put on immortality - when death is swallowed up in victory.


    70AD doesn't do it for me.
    It Does for the Apostle Paul. He said that Death comes by The Law (the accuser) and when The Law of Moses is taken away, then Death No longer reigns. The Mosaic (accusing) Law ended when The Temple was destroyed on AD70. The Perfect Has Come and you just don't 'see it'.
    Brother Les

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