Speaking in Tongues

[Charisma]

Hi Brother Les,

I can see what you all are getting at, but I don't put so much emphasis on the destruction of the Temple as many on BWF do.

The Mosaic (accusing) Law ended when The Temple was destroyed on AD70.

I believe the Mosaic law ended when the veil in the Temple, concealing the Holy of Holies, was torn from top to bottom, and everyone could finally acknowledge the Ark of the Covenant had been missing for at least four hundred years.

[kathryn]

Hi Jim,
In my understanding it is when we are looking at Jesus face to face and eating from the tree of life and drinking from river in the heavenly city.

Re 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Re 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Prophecy is not merely seeing the future, it is interpreting scripture. We are learning to interpret and understand it as Jesus did. In other words we are learning to hear from him.
Here in the very last chapter of Revelation Jesus is still "testifying."

Re 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Re 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

The testamony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Until all that hear, (because they are the ones being testified to) vs. 22:18 have come to the full realization of what it is Christ has to tell us and show us there is still the need of prophecy.
Because Jesus still has things to teach and show us.

Bob

I am in full agreement with you Bob.
Certainly the destruction of the temple was a sign that the old covenant/mosaic law/system had passed away, but to say the perfection had fully come is nowhere to be found in typology.

Herod's temple is also a type and shadow of the carnal or "old" man in each of us. Until the condition of iniquity has been removed and we still possess a dual nature..the old man continues to "pass away" in each one of us. It is as we come into full agreement with the Testimony of Jesus Christ that enables the New Man to be fully formed within us.

This "coming into agreement" is the process of sanctification or the Baptism of Fire. Until the action of the "leaven" within us has been stopped in the fire/oven, as typified by the two loaves of leavened bread in the Pentecostal offering, we're still a mixture. ( typified by the donkey in Leviticus, that had to be redeemed by a Lamb or have it's neck broken. (head(carnal mind) separated from the "Body" in order that the True Head..Christ, might replace it.) We still have "stinking thinking" interfering with the Mind of Christ.

Watchman Nee has a great account, in one of his books, of the day he finally had some understanding that his "old man" had been crucified at the cross. (anyone remember that?:-) From that point on-ward, because he finally had revelation of what Jesus had accomplished for him at the Cross, he was able to begin to reckon himself dead whenever he was tempted, or put under condemnation by the law. This is "putting on the New Man"; this is what it means to "overcome". We stand on the Testimony of Jesus Christ, until it becomes our Testimony.

"We will be like Him, WHEN we SEE Him as He is."

Even Jesus said He would not be perfected until the 3rd day:

Luke 13:32: "And he said to them, Go ye and tell that old fox, "Behold, I cast out demons and perform cures today and tommorow and on the 3rd day, I shall be perfected. The events of the NT took place in the 2nd day.

The Head, Christ, cannot be perfected without His Body...and until this occurs, we most assuredly need the gift of Prophecy because He is still revealing Himself to us, that we might "see" Him as He is.

[kathryn]

It seems pretty ambiguous to me. On the one hand, Paul talks about there being "so many kinds of voices in the world" which suggests he was talking about authentic human languages which were spoken at Pentecost, but on the other hand he mentioned the "tongues of angels" in the previous chapter, so who knows? Off the top of my head, I can't think of anything definitive to settle this issue, and there is a third possibility. Paul's warning that outsiders would think they are "mad" if they were all speaking in tongues suggests they may have been merely "babbling" like many modern Pentecostals. This seems to me most likely since fleshly imitation of the "Spirit" has been going on from the beginning, and authentic manifestations of speaking in unknown human languages is extremely rare (if it occurs at all).

Hi Richard...I meant to comment on this earlier.
I have only seen a manifestation of speaking in another language once in the 39 years I have been a believer.
A friend of mine and myself were invited to the home of a First Nations couple on a reserve in Northern British Columbia. A group of us had gathered together to pray for a man on the reserve who was ill. My friend is Canadian, caucasion , and this was her first visit to a First Nations reserve.

As we were praying, several people began to speak in tongues...the kind you refer to as "babbling", as well as my friend. In the middle of this, the cadence of her voice (or tongue) changed dramatically. The First Nations people in Canada, particularily western Canada, have a very distinct way of speaking; it's slow and methodical, with very little rhythm or distinction between the syllables. They are imitated and mocked often because of it.

I thought for a moment that she was trying to throw a bit of levity into an otherwise somber moment. Being that we were the only two non-native people there, and her first visit to a reserve, it felt extremely inappropriate. To add to my confusion and discomfort, the whole room had gone silent while she was speaking and they all had a dumbfounded look on their faces. To make a long story short...she had spoken in the Carrier language with a prophesy concerning the man we were praying for. Not only was it Carrier, it included some words from the old Carrier dialect that only the elders knew from their childhood. It was a tremendous encouragement and faith builder for all of us, not to mention an amazing experience.

[james.hopkins]

When Heaven and Earth pass.

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18For verily I say unto you, Till Heaven and Earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

QUOTE=Brother Les;36250]When Heaven and Earth pass.

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18For verily I say unto you, Till Heaven and Earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.[/QUOTE]

Hi Bro. Les,

You make a very good point. Not the least part of the Law would pass away until two things were accomplished: 1) The passing away of heaven and earth, and 2) all things being accomplished.

Neither of which happened at the cross. Yet it is believed by many that Jesus "finished" the Law nailing it to the cross. But as you correctly state, heaven and earth did not pass away, and therefore, neither does the Law.

I would hope that you would consider that Jesus teaches that the Heaven and Earth would pass away in the desolation that was coming upon Jerusalem in 70 AD. In Mt 24:34-35 Jesus says, "Truly, I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. Heaven and earth will pass away,..." You may also note that these two phrases are coupled together in all three gospels in the same manner. See also Mk 13:30-31 and Lk 21:32-33.

Now, I recognize that I am reading this as Jesus saying that Heaven and earth pass away at that time. There are perhaps other interpretations, but I really see this as the message that was intended by Jesus. The conclusion that I see drawn from this is that heaven and earth was a phrase in use by Jewish folks for the temple. Josephus is a good source to show that the Jewish folks thought in this manner. And of course, Jesus is speaking of the passing of the temple in Jerusalem which actually was destroyed in the manner that Jesus describes.

To reinforce the idea of the passing away of heaven and earth in 70 AD, let me also give you Heb 12:26-28. (my comments in parentheses).

26 At that time (At Mount Sinai) his voice shook the earth, but now (in Hag 2:6) he has promised, 'Yet once more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens.'
27 This phrase, 'Yet once more,' indicates the removal of things that are shaken—that is, things that have been made (Old Covenant things) —in order that the things that cannot be shaken (New Covenant things) may remain.
28 Therefore let us be grateful for receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, and thus let us offer to God acceptable worship, with reverence and awe,

Heaven and earth are shaken in Haggai's prophecy, but we are told that the shaking "indicates the removal of the things that are shaken !!! So, it really is saying that heaven and earth are removed, just like Jesus taught.

What does this passage tell us? It is a contrast between the old and new covenants. And the saints are awaiting the shaking of heaven and earth, i.e., its removal, to receive the kingdom. Per Jesus, that removal took place before that generation passed away.

So, heaven and earth may mean the earth and our cosmic system to us. But to those hearing the message in those days, it was clearly understood what Jesus was speaking about. And the same is true about 2Pet 3 and the burning up of heaven and earth. He is speaking of an event that would happen in his day. Why else would he say, "The end of all things is at hand?" And "the time is come for judgment to begin from the house of God?" 1Pet 4:7, 17.

Yes, the heaven and earth passed away, all things of the Law were accomplished, and the Kingdom, (the New Covenant) was given to the saints.

Notice also some parallel passages when the saints received the kingdom and see if it doesn't correlate to the 70 AD time frame.

Dan 7:21-22, "As I looked, this horn made war with the saints and prevailed over them, until the Ancient of Days came, and judgment was given for the saints of the Most High, and the time came when the saints possessed the kingdom."

Mt 25:31, 34, "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne.... Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world."

The kingdom of God/Christ is not given to the saints on Pentecost when Jesus received the throne of his father, David. They are rather, "sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it,..." Eph 1:13-14.

Some folks live like they were still under Law thinking that heaven and earth have not passed away. They still await their inheritance and look for the kingdom of God to come. But if you will open your spiritual discernment, (your "right" eye!) you may see that the Kingdom and New Covenant have been received by the saints. "Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come."

Remember Dan 9:24 and the "end of sin"? Did it happen? Remember Heb 9:26 and "now at the end of the ages, (Christ) he has put away sin by the sacrifice of himself?" Did he put away sin? If you are looking with you worldly wisdom, you'll say, NO! "There is sin all around us." But when one is in Christ Jesus, he is a new creation. You have a new heaven and earth in which dwells righteousness. Look at Rev 21 again. Can you not see that it is speaking about the passing away of the Old Covenant and the receiving of the New? John saw, "a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,..." Isn't that what Heb 12:27-28 was all about?

How about the passing away of Death? Has that happened yet? You say, "Don't be rediculous, people are dying all around us." But if you a new creation, what do you see? Does not Jesus say, "Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life?" Jn 5:24. And how about Jn 8:51? "Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death.'

Remember 2Tim 1:10, "which now has been manifested through the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel." And then there is 1Cor 15:26, "the last enemy is done away--death;" (Young's Literal). I use Youngs because he is the only one that uses the present passive indicative that is in use. The last enemy, death, is done away.

See it with the "right" eye!!

Jim Hopkins

[heb13-13]

Hi Brother Les,

I can see what you all are getting at, but I don't put so much emphasis on the destruction of the Temple as many on BWF do.
I believe the Mosaic law ended when the veil in the Temple, concealing the Holy of Holies, was torn from top to bottom, and everyone could finally acknowledge the Ark of the Covenant had been missing for at least four hundred years.

Hi Charisma,

I am in agreement with you on the Veil.

[james.hopkins]

Hi Jim,
In my understanding it is when we are looking at Jesus face to face and eating from the tree of life and drinking from river in the heavenly city.

Jim ans: Hi Bob, It is my understanding that in the New Covenant old things have passed away and all things have become new. 2Cor 5:17. That we are in the very presence of Jesus and that we see him face to face. 1Cor 13:12. That we are eating of the tree of life and drinking from the river in the heavenly city. Rev 21:6.

Bob continues:
Re 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Re 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Prophecy is not merely seeing the future, it is interpreting scripture. We are learning to interpret and understand it as Jesus did. In other words we are learning to hear from him.
Here in the very last chapter of Revelation Jesus is still "testifying."

Re 22:20 He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

Jim ans: Yes, Jesus was still testifying because the Old Covenant age was still present when he spoke. I do not agree that prophecy involves the interpretation of scripture. I would agree that we are still learning to hear from him.

Bob continues:
Re 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

The testamony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Until all that hear, (because they are the ones being testified to) vs. 22:18 have come to the full realization of what it is Christ has to tell us and show us there is still the need of prophecy.
Because Jesus still has things to teach and show us.

Bob

Jim ans: I fully agree that we have many things to be taught, but I am persuaded that it will not come from a prophet, but rather from the scriptures that we now possess and which tell of this wonderful message from Jesus, the apostles and the prophets.

I see Jude telling us to "contend earnestly for the faith once and for all delivered to the saints." Jude 3. The word has been delivered...once for all. There have been no additions to the scriptures since Jesus gave the Revelation. Nor do I expect any. I see Paul teaching that prophecy would cease when the Perfect came. I believe that it came when the Old Covenant age ended during the judgment on the Old Covenant world.

The prophets also declared a time when "vision and prophets" would be sealed up. Dan 9:24. We are told that the prophet and unclean spirit would pass out of the Land when there was a fountain opened for sin and uncleanness. Zech 13:1-2. One must discern what is meant by the Land for in the New Covenant we are a new creation and the fool nor wayfaring do not enter therein. Isa 35:8.

I know we differ, but thanks, Bob, for your thoughts.

Jim Hopkins

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Hi Richard...I meant to comment on this earlier.
I have only seen a manifestation of speaking in another language once in the 39 years I have been a believer.
A friend of mine and myself were invited to the home of a First Nations couple on a reserve in Northern British Columbia. A group of us had gathered together to pray for a man on the reserve who was ill. My friend is Canadian, caucasion , and this was her first visit to a First Nations reserve.

As we were praying, several people began to speak in tongues...the kind you refer to as "babbling", as well as my friend. In the middle of this, the cadence of her voice (or tongue) changed dramatically. The First Nations people in Canada, particularily western Canada, have a very distinct way of speaking; it's slow and methodical, with very little rhythm or distinction between the syllables. They are imitated and mocked often because of it.

I thought for a moment that she was trying to throw a bit of levity into an otherwise somber moment. Being that we were the only two non-native people there, and her first visit to a reserve, it felt extremely inappropriate. To add to my confusion and discomfort, the whole room had gone silent while she was speaking and they all had a dumbfounded look on their faces. To make a long story short...she had spoken in the Carrier language with a prophesy concerning the man we were praying for. Not only was it Carrier, it included some words from the old Carrier dialect that only the elders knew from their childhood. It was a tremendous encouragement and faith builder for all of us, not to mention an amazing experience.

That's an amazing anecdote. I have no reason to doubt it. I have had a number of experiences in my life that struck me as equally miraculous. I used to think that they were proof of God and Christianity. Now I just say I don't really know what they prove, though they do indeed seem to prove something!

One of the reasons I don't feel they have to be interpreted in Christian terms is because I experienced some of them while not Christian. The most memorable right now was a time I was walking in the forest on Waldron Island in the Straight of Juan de Fuca. It was a perfect day in a fragrant quiet forest on a small island. I felt the "presence of God" and knew everything was divine and it seems so real and I asked for a sign and felt like I was told to look at my feet and I would find four leaf clovers. I found seven within a foot in front of my toes. I put them in this book from my college English course (ca. 1981) called "A Writer's Reader" -



The significance of this event naturally fit into a Christian context many years later when I discerned the archetypal/biblical significance of the Number 4 as representing a "sign" like a four-armed cross that "marks the spot." Cain was given a "mark" (aut) by God in Genesis 4 and so was cursed to wander like Israel in Book 4, (Numbers). And Ezekiel on Spoke 4 put a "mark" (aut) upon the heads of the saved, which early Christians interpreted as a cross +

Therefore, the "sign" I received was given in the form of the archetypal sign. This really seemed to verify to me the reality of God and Christianity when I finally became a Christian.

But now ... even though I can still feel the tingle, I wonder if we should believe the stories we've been told. Every word I speak I heard from another. I was born amongst an English speaking people and I have grown up with that language and religion and culture. Ancient words and ideas are infused into each new generation. How many of their ideas should we accept? And how many of their ideas formed the lens through which we view the world? We're in the Matrix of History. We need to wake up and become self-aware.

Great chatting!

Richard

[kathryn]

Hi Richard...thanks for sharing that story. Is it written somewhere that you have to be a christian first, before hearing God? It's been my experience that He uses many different means to draw us.
I don't think I have to define or explain anything in Christian terms when I'm speaking of a supernatural experience...nor do I most times. It depends entirely on whom I'm speaking with. I usually let Him introduce Himself in His own way. But I can, if needed
Quite frankly, I can't fully believe a foundational concept in the bible until I can see it. (and usually it has to be over and over, and from varying angles)
Many many things I used to believe in Christianity, and dogmatically declare I believed, I realize now wasn't belief at all. It was an assumption based on someone elses' sloppy study of the bible. My standards have risen:-)
If I now can't trace it in type and shadow, through the 3 phases of redemption typified in the Law of Moses, the prophets and the psalms...the 3 areas Jesus used Himself, to reveal Himself after the resurrection I discount it. If I can trace it....I believe it wholeheartedly.
Each time it happens...it is life changing in some way...faith is built up, joy increases, and the body is energized. This is utterly satisfying to me.
I have a passionate hunger for the truth..and I can be a fickle old broad if it isn't satiated regularily.
I can honestly tell you that while I desire to know about other faiths, as I find it extremely interesting...I couldn't bear to take the time I would spend on it, away from the Bible. There simply isn't enough of it left in the day. I'm enjoying watching your pursuit of truth though..although I want to give you a slap sometimes.

[kathryn]

Just a little one....with a slightly wet, but still reasonably firm noodle

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I had never looked at the page of the book in which I placed the seven four leaf clovers. It's a story about a tennis match that has no obvious connection to four leaf clovers or signs or anything like that. But I got curious about the meaning of the name Graebner. It apparently means something like "ditch digger" though I'm not sure. But it was fun to find this entry from the wiki article on Serendipity:

M. E. Graebner describes serendipitous value in the context of the acquisition of a business as "windfalls that were not anticipated by the buyer prior to the deal": i.e., unexpected advantages or benefits incurred due to positive synergy effects of the merger. Ikujiro Nonaka (1991,p. 94 November–December issue of HBR) points out that the serendipitous quality of innovation is highly recognized by managers and links the success of Japanese enterprises to their ability to create knowledge not by processing information but rather by "tapping the tacit and often highly subjective insights, intuitions, and hunches of individual employees and making those insights available for testing and use by the company as a whole".

Serendipity is a key concept in Competitive Intelligence because it is one of the tools for avoiding Blind Spots (see Blindspots analysis)[7]

Of course, just a few days ago I was writing posts on synchronicity here on this forum, and even mentioned the book called Synchronicity: The Inner Path to Leadership which is based on principles mentioned in that wiki article.

This could be "just coincidence" that shows how you can always find a connection between any two things. Or it could have some meaning. I don't know .... it takes a while to come to any certain conclusions on matters like this.

But I do love the idea of "competitive intelligence." I'll have to check out that link.