Parables should settle the Preterist/Futurist debate

**kathryn** · 07-20-2011, 10:48 AM

Originally Posted by Brother Les

I think that these 'types' that you have posted have progressed into the Real in the same timeline framework. This is a 40year (one generation) timeline from Betrothal to Marriage (Sinai, Promised Land Crossing/Penetcost, Promised Land Crossing, not a 2,000 year (+) timeframe.

I

I'm not too clear on what you're saying here Les. What are you referring to as the Pentecost/Promised Land crossing?

**Brother Les** · 07-20-2011, 01:58 PM

Originally Posted by kathryn

I

I'm not too clear on what you're saying here Les. What are you referring to as the Pentecost/Promised Land crossing?

The NT speaks of the 'coming' (their timeframe, first century) marriage. At the time of the writings of all of the NT books the Covenant People were still under the Law of Moses, the law of death.

In referring to the giving of the marriage Betrothal at MT Sinai and going forward 40 years. It is at that date that God tells Joshua that the Reproach of EGYPT (40years after Sinai) is rolled away from The People. The rolling away of the former Love of Israel (Egypt) is when the marriage accured.

The very same 'type' and 'anti-type' applies to the first century timeline. Even though the Betrothal to 'the People' was given at Pentecost, the rolling away of the reproach of Egypt/Babylon/Jerusalem/Mosaic Temple Cultus 'law' did not happen until 70AD and it was at that time that the NC Marriage accured. That is what I mean about the Pentecost/Promise Land Crossing.

The New Jerusalem is here and it is The People of God, married to Jesus/God. The very same entity that made the OC betrothal and marriage to Israel made the NC betrothal and marriage to Israel. Within those that make up Israel have always been sons of darkness and sons of light. Sons of Hagar, which are the sons of the OC and sons of Sarah, which are sons of the NC.

**kathryn** · 07-20-2011, 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by Brother Les

The NT speaks of the 'coming' (their timeframe, first century) marriage.

I know you see this as their time frame Les, but you're not taking the many types and shadows depicting the perfection or sanctification process of the Bride into consideration in this. There are 3 distinct phases of this process and Pentecost itself is shown in 3 distinct phases.

At the time of the writings of all of the NT books the Covenant People were still under the Law of Moses, the law of death.
Yes, the death of Jesus completed the Passover age or" generation" of the Ecclesia and began the age or generation of Pentecost. Pentecost was a "leavened" feast typifying the condition of iniquity still in the "Bride" , which is why the two loaves of bread had to be placed in the fire. (the Baptism of Fire) The Bride will have no spot or wrinkle on her wedding day(no iniquity). This certainly hasn't completed yet.

In referring to the giving of the marriage Betrothal at MT Sinai and going forward 40 years. It is at that date that God tells Joshua that the Reproach of EGYPT (40years after Sinai) is rolled away from The People. The rolling away of the former Love of Israel (Egypt) is when the marriage accured.
Yes, but again, they were only in phase one (Passover) of the perfection
process.

The very same 'type' and 'anti-type' applies to the first century timeline. Even though the Betrothal to 'the People' was given at Pentecost, the rolling away of the reproach of Egypt/Babylon/Jerusalem/Mosaic Temple Cultus 'law' did not happen until 70AD and it was at that time that the NC Marriage accured. That is what I mean about the Pentecost/Promise Land Crossing.
Yes, I agree you can see a phase of it here, but not the completion. The NT church were just beginning their sanctification process. You will see if you study the type in Joshua, that they were just at the "brink" of the river at this point.They were still "2000" cubits behind the ark. (church age)

The New Jerusalem is here
[B] Yes, but it has yet to be made manifest. We're still in the Baptism of Fire (the Jordan) having our "spots and wrinkles removed"

The very same entity that made the OC betrothal and marriage to Israel made the NC betrothal and marriage to Israel. Within those that make up Israel have always been sons of darkness and sons of light. Sons of Hagar, which are the sons of the OC and sons of Sarah, which are sons of the NC.

Yes, I agree about Hagar Les but you're leaving out a major step in all of this.There are TWO works of Christ...and Pentecost has a two-part fullfillment. You've only looked at the crossing of the Jordan in the Passover type and the first part of the Pentecostal type. There are two sides to the river...two sets of "12" called out...and a place called the MIDST of the river, where the ark (Jesus) and priests (1st century saints) are waiting, with the ecclesia 2000 cubits behind. ("40" (wilderness testing) x 50 (Pentecost)
If you do a word study, you'll see it is describing the sanctification process of the Bride and it is not until "she" emerges "clean" on the other side...that this is all fullfilled. We all still have the dual nature of Pentecost (or leaven)..carnal and holy. It is not until the condition of iniquity is consumed in the Baptism of Fire, that the wedding can take place.

**Brother Les** · 07-21-2011, 07:06 AM

kathryn

Yes, I agree you can see a phase of it here, but not the completion. The NT church were just beginning their sanctification process. You will see if you study the type in Joshua, that they were just at the "brink" of the river at this point.They were still "2000" cubits behind the ark. (church age)

The People could Never have Crossed over the Jordan (or walked into) if they were NOT married to YHWH/Jesus. The 'sanctification' process (maturing) of the NT church was during the transition period of AD30-AD70. There is no and never will be again the 'Ark of The (oc) covenant. Your stating of a 'church age' is an indication of an ending of your percieved church age. This is not Biblical by OT or NT standards but by skewed church timeline traditions. By stating of a 'church age' you are saying that the New Covenant Has not come and that there is now no Salvation and All will go to Sheol and NONE (but Christ) has gone to heaven to be in the presents of God.

If you do a word study, you'll see it is describing the sanctification process of the Bride and it is not until "she" emerges "clean" on the other side...that this is all fullfilled. We all still have the dual nature of Pentecost (or leaven)..carnal and holy. It is not until the condition of iniquity is consumed in the Baptism of Fire, that the wedding can take place.

Are you 'clean'? Are you Holy? I guess not. You seem to take the tack that your 'duel nature' is held against you and that at some point you will emerge 'clean'..... You are holding the standards of Works, you are holding the standards of the Old Covenant Law. To you that Law has never been fulfilled, to you 'the People' must have mill stones placed around their necks for 'during THIS AGE (YOUR church age) all are 'still' unclean and dogs by their NATURE. Your mind set is that you are a dog (unclean) and forever you shall remain a dog (Goem).

You wish to remain in an age of works that is no more, and it is to your (darkness) Fathers that the prophecets spoke. Don't tell me about the workings of Joshua when it you who are still wondering in the wilderness and not even close to 'the Jordan'.
Isa 6:
8Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

9And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not.

10Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

11Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,

Jer. 5:
20Declare this in the house of Jacob, and publish it in Judah, saying,

21Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not:

Ezekiel 12
1The word of the LORD also came unto me, saying,

2Son of man, thou dwellest in the midst of a rebellious house, which have eyes to see, and see not; they have ears to hear, and hear not: for they are a rebellious house.

3Therefore, thou son of man, prepare thee stuff for removing, and remove by day in their sight; and thou shalt remove from thy place to another place in their sight: it may be they will consider, though they be a rebellious house.

Mat.13:

14And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

15For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

16But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

17For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

Mar 8:

15And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.

16And they reasoned among themselves, saying, It is because we have no bread.

17And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?

18Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?

Acts 28:
25And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, 26Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:

27For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

28Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Romans 11:
7What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear unto this day.

9And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:

10Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.

Oh, daughter of Hagar, throw off your vain works religion, which is no religion at all and crossover to the Promise Land of Marriage to Christ/YHWH.

**Twospirits** · 07-21-2011, 09:40 AM

BL wrote,

The NT speaks of the 'coming' (their timeframe, first century) marriage. At the time of the writings of all of the NT books the Covenant People were still under the Law of Moses, the law of death.

Did Jesus fulfill the law when he died on the cross? If your answer is "no," then tell me what Paul meant when he said in Col. 2:14, "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross." Here's exactly what Jesus was saying in Matthew 5:17-18: The death of Jesus on the cross fulfilled the requirements of the Old Testament Law. And...that's exactly what Paul is emphasizing in Col. 2:14.

Even though the Betrothal to 'the People' was given at Pentecost, the rolling away of the reproach of Egypt/Babylon/Jerusalem/Mosaic Temple Cultus 'law' did not happen until 70AD and it was at that time that the NC Marriage accured. That is what I mean about the Pentecost/Promise Land Crossing.

Les, Jewish marriage customs show us that it involved the establishing of a marriage covenant, which came to its fullness at Pentecost, not in 70 A.D. Christ's death at the Cross, the price the Bridegroom (Christ) paid to purchase his Bride, which was part of the Jewish marriage customs. From that moment on the Bride was married and 'set apart' exclusively for her Bridegroom. After the marriage covenant had been established the groom would return to his Father's house (Christ's ascension) to prepare a place (wedding chamber) for his bride. The consummation of the marriage (Rev. 19:7) and the marriage supper (Rev. 19:9) could not come until he returned for his Bride; and this has yet to occur. This can be seen in the parable of Mt. 22 that Gilgal posted.

God bless---Twospirits

**Brother Les** · 07-21-2011, 11:26 AM

Henry
Did Jesus fulfill the law when he died on the cross? If your answer is "no," then tell me what Paul meant when he said in Col. 2:14, "Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross."

Col 2:
14Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.

16Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

18Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

19And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God.

20Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,

Unless you proclaim to have a Jewish mother (Henry) then it was not possiable for you to be under the Law of Moses from the timeline of The Cross until the Judgments of The Mosaic Law and of the Ages before.Paul at the time of the writing of Colossians says that the ordinances of The Law are a shadow of Things To Come (future tense from Pauls writings and after The Cross)

Here's exactly what Jesus was saying in Matthew 5:17-18:

17Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

21Ye have heard that it was said of them of old time, Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgment:

22But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

23Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest that thy brother hath ought against thee;

24Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift.

25Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison.

26Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

So....You are saying that Jesus Christ destroyed Heaven and Earth on the day that He died on The Cross?

The death of Jesus on the cross fulfilled the requirements of the Old Testament Law. And...that's exactly what Paul is emphasizing in Col. 2:14.

His death fulfilled the Sacrifice.... it did not fulfill the Judgments of the OC marriage contract terms.
The Romans did that 40years later

**Brother Les** · 07-21-2011, 11:46 AM

Les, Jewish marriage customs show us that it involved the establishing of a marriage covenant, which came to its fullness at Pentecost, not in 70 A.D. Christ's death at the Cross, the price the Bridegroom (Christ) paid to purchase his Bride, which was part of the Jewish marriage customs. From that moment on the Bride was married and “set apart” exclusively for her Bridegroom. After the marriage covenant had been established the groom would return to his Father's house (Christ's ascension) to prepare a place (wedding chamber) for his bride. The consummation of the marriage (Rev. 19:7) and the marriage supper (Rev. 19:9) could not come until he returned for his Bride; and this has yet to occur. This can be seen in the parable of Mt. 22 that Gilgal posted.

God bless---Twospirits

It would be to easy to rip you apart on what you have stated here. As is some things, you are close but stretched in a way that fits your belief and not reality.

In Jewish marriage customs, the betrothal is as binding as marriage. You will find that it can only be undone by divorce on proper grounds--such as the bride not being found a virgin.Next in the ceremonial order is the placement of the sealed cup of acceptance before the bride and groom as per the ancient Jewish Wedding custom during the betrothal ceremony.

You will be surprised to know that the groom actually proposes to the bride during this ceremony! The groom is expected to pour out the wine from the cup for his bride and wait for her to drink it as a token of her love for him and acceptance of his marriage proposal.

http://www.muslim-marriage-guide.com...e-customs.html

Henry, you are stating that 'we' (?) are 'betrothed' to Christ for over 2,000 years in an unBiblical 'church age'. 'Betrothal' that is binding for something 'in YOUR future'. This means that you are not an heir, and you still have no Salveation, that you are not Redeemed, but only 'betrotheded' in a 'pledge' of things to come. This would make the words of Paul so true (for you) that you are still in the Shadow and that you are still waiting for the things to come. You are judged by meat and drink and new moons and sabbaths.

By being on 'Betrothed', then we still wait for the fulfilling of Jermiah 31 and Ezekiel 37.

**Twospirits** · 07-21-2011, 12:52 PM

BL wrote,

In Jewish marriage customs, the betrothal is as binding as marriage. You will find that it can only be undone by divorce on proper grounds--such as the bride not being found a virgin.Next in the ceremonial order is the placement of the sealed cup of acceptance before the bride and groom as per the ancient Jewish Wedding custom during the betrothal ceremony.

You will be surprised to know that the groom actually proposes to the bride during this ceremony! The groom is expected to pour out the wine from the cup for his bride and wait for her to drink it as a token of her love for him and acceptance of his marriage proposal.

Yes, this is correct, except it is a legal marriage, and not “as” a marriage. Otherwise why is there a need for a “writ of divorce” if there are grounds found for it; and why are they called a Bride and Groom if they are not?

Henry, you are stating that 'we' (?) are 'betrothed' to Christ for over 2,000 years in an unBiblical 'church age'. 'Betrothal' that is binding for something 'in YOUR future'. This means that you are not an heir, and you still have no Salveation, that you are not Redeemed, but only 'betrotheded' in a 'pledge' of things to come. This would make the words of Paul so true (for you) that you are still in the Shadow and that you are still waiting for the things to come. You are judged by meat and drink and new moons and sabbaths.

By being on 'Betrothed', then we still wait for the fulfilling of Jermiah 31 and Ezekiel 37.

No we are married in Christ and await the consummation of the marriage when He comes. We are not under the Law but under Grace. The death of Jesus on the cross fulfilled the requirements of the Old Testament Law. And...that's exactly what Paul is emphasizing in Col. 2:14.

God bless---Twospirits

**gilgal** · 07-21-2011, 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by Brother Les

Look at the Old Covenant as the 'type' that it is. When was the Old Covenant Wedding (hint:when the children of those that went into the wildreness crossed over into the physical terra firma Promised Land)? The very same Timeline and procedure exists for the New Covenant wedding. The ones the Recieved the Old Covenant Betrothal(Sinai) of Marriage were not the same ones who were actually married into the Old Covenant. All had to become a 'new People', born again,under a new name, Jews:Christians/Gentiles:Christians= The Body/the Church/the Assymbly/Christians.

Yes I agree.

The Israelites left Egypt on the first passover.

Likewise the first Christians who were Israelites were persecuted during the first few years and scattered after the execution of Stephen in Acts 7 until Herod's death in Acts 12.

But our aim and struggle is for the heavenly city not the earthly city. But it was the same for Abraham too. And in psalms (91?) it says that if you hear the word of God today not to harden your hearts as they hardened and entered not into the land of promise in Numbers 14.

**Brother Les** · 07-22-2011, 11:54 AM

Henry

Quote:
BL wrote,

In Jewish marriage customs, the betrothal is as binding as marriage. You will find that it can only be undone by divorce on proper grounds--such as the bride not being found a virgin.Next in the ceremonial order is the placement of the sealed cup of acceptance before the bride and groom as per the ancient Jewish Wedding custom during the betrothal ceremony.

You will be surprised to know that the groom actually proposes to the bride during this ceremony! The groom is expected to pour out the wine from the cup for his bride and wait for her to drink it as a token of her love for him and acceptance of his marriage proposal.

Yes, this is correct, except it is a legal marriage, and not “as” a marriage. Otherwise why is there a need for a “writ of divorce” if there are grounds found for it; and why are they called a Bride and Groom if they are not?

Henry, I cut and pasted the two paragraphs word for word from the url that I posted....I changed nothing. you are not arguing with me, you are arguing with the website that that was posted on. And as for the 'writ of Divorce'.... The 'Divorce' (removal from) is the removing the Betrothal pledge. The Betrothal pledge can only be 'undone' for 'proper' grounds and thus the 'Divorce' (removal) of the Betrothal pledge. This is not the marriage and the end of the Consemation age period, but it leads up to that binding of the Full Completion. This is in full compareson of The Church, being born at pentecost (weeks and weeks after The Cross) and growing unto its' full maturity 40 years later at the Marriage. The Writer of the Book of Hebrews brings this out very well when he tells his reader (Hebrews) to not 'go back' to the law of works (which they could anytime they wanted to), but to go forward to the law of Grace. The 'Betrothed' 'bride' could do many things that would nullify the marriage Betrothal and earn her a 'writ of Divorce' from the Betrothal Pleadge.
(Henry, a lot of times I think that you like to argue for arguements sake.... and sometimes I think that you are very naive)

No we are married in Christ and await the consummation of the marriage when He comes

If the Marriage has not been consemated then we have no rights as heirs and sons. We have not been redeemed, we do not have Rightiousness, and have no Salvation.

We are not under the Law but under Grace.

Then act like it and stop saying that it will end....

The death of Jesus on the cross fulfilled the requirements of the Old Testament Law. And...that's exactly what Paul is emphasizing in Col. 2:14.

God bless---Twospirits

He did not and I have answered this. the very verses around the one that you wish to use as a proof text destroys your arguement.

Good Day/AGE

gilgal
But our aim and struggle is for the heavenly city not the earthly city. But it was the same for Abraham too.

Then live in the Heavenly city... it is all around you. Abraham was looking for Beulah Land. He was a traveler with God/Jesus through the land of dirt, but he was looking for an other land, the Heavenly Land of Promise. That Promise has been fulfilled and he and we are living it it now.