Why can I fogive but God cannot?

[joel]

Bob, I am need of some fresh light concerning this valuable subject.......can you supply to me (other than the Nicodemus account concerning "born again") specific scripture that speaks of "spiritual death"?

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Bob, I am need of some fresh light concerning this valuable subject.......can you supply to me (other than the Nicodemus account concerning "born again") specific scripture that speaks of "spiritual death"?

Joel

Hey Joel,

What do you think Paul meant when he wrote this?

Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

We know he did not physically die. So what does he mean when he said that he died?

[gregoryfl]

(Isa 25:7, 8 [TS98])
And He shall swallow up on this mountain the surface of the covering which covers all people, and the veil which is spread over all nations. He shall swallow up death forever, and the Master יהוה shall wipe away tears from all faces, and take away the reproach of His people from all the earth. For יהוה has spoken.

Can this perhaps help give understanding to the truths that are contained in both views being put forth? To me it appears to be a difference of words and how those words are being defined.

Notice the Hebrew parallelisms here which define the death that would be done away with.

Ron

[joel]

Hey Joel,

What do you think Paul meant when he wrote this?

Romans 7:9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

We know he did not physically die. So what does he mean when he said that he died?

Richard, the context of Romans 7 concerns the law. When the woman's husband dies (in this case he becomes a corpse), then, the woman is free of the law of her husband.

In the same manner, our body with sin as its master, is like the husband. When we believe the gospel, we are free of the law of sin due to the death of our husband (in that we are included in the death of Christ in Romans 6)
and are free from the death rationing of sin described in the latter part of Romans 5.

However, when the commandment comes, sin revives and the process of the rationing of death begins anew only this time I am an unwilling participant likened to a prisoner of war.

It is sin that deceives me into thinking I can do good for God, and by the commandment causes me to be rationed death by sin once again.

Joel

[Bob May]

Bob, I am need of some fresh light concerning this valuable subject.......can you supply to me (other than the Nicodemus account concerning "born again") specific scripture that speaks of "spiritual death"?

Joel

Hi Joel,

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Joh 1:6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John.
Joh 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.
Joh 1:8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.
Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God

Here John is speaking about the Word which is Light and Life. The only ones who have the power to see it see it/him are those who have recieved him. Those have been born of God. And also have recieved the power to become sons of God.

If we are sons, then heirs. and fellow heirs with Christ.
Ro 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Ro 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Ro 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Ro 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

You asked for fresh Light. The best advice I can give you is to look at the promises in scripture in a fresh way. If the Spirit through our spirit tells us we are the children of God and fellow heirs with Christ Then Believe It. Look for more evidence of it.

I can look for the law and condemnation in scripture and find it. I'm very good at it, I have done it for many years. I can also look for the apparent surface meaning of scripture. It comes natural. But why would I want to?

On the other hand I can look for the New Covenant hidden in the Old.
The former way leads to death and the latter to life. The former to blindness and deafness, the latter to opening my eyes and ears to God's promises.

So 2:8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.
So 2:9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, showing himself through the lattice.

I just re-read your question. You also asked for,.. "...specific scripture that speaks of "spiritual death"?"

Here's one.

Ga 3:1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?
Ga 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
Ga 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
Ga 3:4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

Here is another.

Pr 16:25 There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

But why would you want that?

[joel]

Bob,

Thanks for the scriptures.

What I requested you did not supply but verses you think apply in an indirect way.

And, having requested the same thing many times of others on this forum (can you give specific scripture which speaks of spiritual death which is a main teaching of orthodox NT teachings?)...............there remains yet a positive answer and the appropriate necessary verses.

So.... I can only conclude that this is yet another man-made doctrine (which I call a theory) that cannot be supported by verses.

Why is this important?

Because, in my view, this erroneous teaching affects our view of salvation and the resurrection.

Joel

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Richard, the context of Romans 7 concerns the law. When the woman's husband dies (in this case he becomes a corpse), then, the woman is free of the law of her husband.

In the same manner, our body with sin as its master, is like the husband. When we believe the gospel, we are free of the law of sin due to the death of our husband (in that we are included in the death of Christ in Romans 6)
and are free from the death rationing of sin described in the latter part of Romans 5.

However, when the commandment comes, sin revives and the process of the rationing of death begins anew only this time I am an unwilling participant likened to a prisoner of war.

It is sin that deceives me into thinking I can do good for God, and by the commandment causes me to be rationed death by sin once again.

Joel

I'm sorry, but I don't understand your explanation. First, I've never read anything in the Bible about a "process of rationing of death." Where did you get that idea? What does it even mean? Death is not a substance that can be "rationed."

Second, I've never seen anything in the Bible that says that we are "married to our body." On the contrary, the Bible says that we were "married to the Law" and that we died with Christ (by faith), and so are free from the Law = Husband, and so can be married to Christ = New Husband. That's why it says we became "dead to the law" -

Romans 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

"Dead to the law" means that the person is not responsive to the demands of the law. The law has no power over the person. Likewise, to be made "alive" to God means that you now are in right relation with God and responsive to His Spirit. When I read all the places that the Bible talks about living people being "dead" I understand that it is talking about our relationship to God. We are called "dead" relative to God if we are "in sin." This seems extremely plain and obvious, and it is what the Bible explicitly states:

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Everything in the Bible coheres with the plain and obvious meaning of this verse. Death is the symbol used for those who are not in right relationship with God. It is not physical death. This is why it is called "spiritual" death. When a person is in right relationship with God, he becomes "spiritually alive." That's why the Bible says that believers become "alive" when they believe, and are "dead" before they believe. I don't see any confusion about this whatsoever. It seems to be the plain and obvious teaching of the Bible.

[Bob May]

Bob,

Thanks for the scriptures.

What I requested you did not supply but verses you think apply in an indirect way.

And, having requested the same thing many times of others on this forum (can you give specific scripture which speaks of spiritual death which is a main teaching of orthodox NT teachings?)...............there remains yet a positive answer and the appropriate necessary verses.

So.... I can only conclude that this is yet another man-made doctrine (which I call a theory) that cannot be supported by verses.

Why is this important?

Because, in my view, this erroneous teaching affects our view of salvation and the resurrection.

Joel

How can it be erroneous and at the same time "affect our view of resurrection?"
Natural man's "view of resurrection" is that we cannot come back from the dead.
If that view has been "affected" it must mean that we now believe we can come back from the dead.
So by your very answer you are saying that we were dead.

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses

It cannot be more clear than that. Believe it.

[joel]

When Jesus was crucified, all of humanity, because of sin, sins, offenses, and the flesh (characterized by its uncircumcision) was crucified together with Him.

When He died, We, all together, died.

When He became a corpse, we (plural) became a corpse.

And, in Him, we were made alive together.

The emphasis of the saving work of Christ is primarily for all of humanity as a collective unity, not as individuals.

We, however, believe it individually.

Joel

[gregoryfl]

Take a sheet, and go into a lighted room, and cover yourself with it. You have just demonstrated the death the Adam and Eve brought into the world, pictured by the uncircumcision of the flesh.

Now, remove that sheet, and you have just demonstrated the coming to life that Yeshua brought, the forgiveness of our trespasses, pictured by the circumcision of the flesh.

This is taught in the scripture I shared as well as in the Colossians passage shared by another here, where Paul uses parallelism to define for us death and life.

Ron