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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by throwback View Post
    Here's an idea that ran through my head a while ago:
    My proposal is that God's creative endevour was enacted with life being the initial idea as well as the desired end result.
    The above is a real 'duh' declaration until one considers who and what God is as well as considering what the necessary ramifications of creating sentient life forms with the freedom and ability to choose right or wrong would be. God had to know that sin would be a result and that because of sin much pain, many evils, and ultimately death would be the result.
    With the above in mind a thinking person may wonder whether or not sentient life even deserves to exist. Can life thrive without infecting its habitation with evil? Can free sentient beings ultimately be good? Those questions are the basis for what I term The Divine Experiment. I believe God created us knowing and believing sentient and free beings were in fact worthy of being given life and that His trust was finally proven and rewarded in Jesus.
    Scripture, in places like Ezekiel 18 and Romans 6 tells us that sin is the catalyst that leads to death. With that being the case, I see sin sort of like a cancer that has infected our world, our universe even, and death our universe's response to that cancer. Too me, sin brings about a sort of entropy. Consider this; sin and evil create or should I say bring entropy into whatever system it (sin) is introduced. As long as the cancer of sin survives, the system will continue to drift further and further into disorder, pain, suffering, corruption, until finally, the system will cease to be able to live. So in this real applicable way we can see just how the wages of sin is death. That even makes sense of the teaching in scripture that tells man not to love the world. The world is infected and dying and the only way to survive is to come out of it. The means by which we can be redeemed from the world (come out of it) is what I term as The Divine Gift.

    I can see how sin is the sickness and death is the mechanism used to fight off the infection. Our universe combats sin by inflicting death so that sin cannot persist endlessly. Ultimately, death is intended to kill off the sin infection and once it has accomplished that task, it too will be done away with. For those who survive this world, we will ever be mindful of two things. One being the Divine Gift that redeemed us from the curse of sin and secondly, the reprocussions of sin. With these things etched in mind, the survivors will not participate in or give sin a chance to be reborn in the new habitation because they know the consequences.

    Having said the above, it seems that the aim God had/has in mind for mankind is ultimately perfection, sinlessness, or the "glory of God" that we fall short of because of our sin. What we must remember is that sin is not something we are forced to do, there is always an out. Just as Jesus walked this world being tempted in all ways as we are, yet was without sin, we too have such a capability and living up to that God given potential is what we as mankind and ESPECIALLY christians who have been called out are expected to do!
    I have one question. WHAT EXACTLY IS SIN?

    It seems that before animals became self-aware (humans) there was no such thing as sin.

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

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  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    Richard,
    Have you considered that.......sin (hamartia) requires atonement (covering over).....but.....in the case of Mark 11:25.....Jesus is not talking about sin, but, offenses (paratoma,..these being primarily those offensive things man vs. man, man vs. woman, etc......not man vs. God) which require forgiveness,.......we cannot and are not to cover over those things...but must go that person offended and attempt to patch it up, before we come back to God in prayer.

    So, according to Jesus, God is not going to hear your prayer if you are in conflict with your "neighbor" due to your offensives toward him (them). This seems to me to be perfectly just.

    Joel
    Hi Joel,

    Sorry for my slow response to this post. It got buried by some others and I missed it.

    I don't understand you comments about "paraptoma" - where did you get that information? The passage states:
    Mark 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses (paraptoma). 26 But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses (paraptoma).
    God's forgiveness of our "paraptoma" is identical to God's forgiveness of our sins, which is the essence of the Gospel message. Paul says that Jesus was "delivered for our offences (paraptoma)" (Rom 4:25), and explains the entire Gospel using this word (every occurrence of paraptoma in bold):
    Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: 13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come. 15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many. 16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification. 17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.) 18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous. 20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
    We see the same thing in 2 Corinthians:
    2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses (paraptoma) unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
    And in Ephesians, where paraptoma is translated as "sins" -
    Ephesians 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins (paraptoma), according to the riches of his grace;
    Jesus did not say that "God would not hear our prayers" if we do not forgive, he said God would not forgive our "paraptoma" if we did not forgive others. And the forgiveness of our "paraptoma" is the essential message of the Gospel as taught by Paul in many of his epistles.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
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  3. #23
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    Hi Richard,

    You quoted Hebrews below.

    Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

    Paul is making contrasts between the old Covenant Atonement and the Atonement of Jesus' sacrifice on the cross.

    Some of the contrasts he makes are:
    That the old yearly atonement came once a year.
    The new atonement came only once.
    The old was merely a shadow and an image.
    The new was a good thing to come.
    The old never made anyone perfect, (implying that the new atonement would.)
    The old did not purge sins and never removed sin from our memories or conscience.
    The old was taken away by Jesus coming.
    The new was established.
    That the offering of Jesus body was once, for all and santified us.
    That the Old Testament offerings never took away sins.
    That Jesus offered one sacrifice for sins forever.
    And that he perfected forever those who were sanctified (us)

    I could go on, but you get the idea. He was comparing and contrasting the two atonements.
    With that in mind go back to the verse you quoted.


    Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

    There "remaineth no more sacrifice for sins" because there is only one sacrifice in the New Covenant Atonement. This is as opposed to the Old where there remained another sacrifice for sins the next year and the next, and the next.Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

    Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
    Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

    Here is the contrast he is getting at. If under the Old Law we are liable to such a great punishment because of rejecting the shadow of things to come, How much greater the punishment can we expect if we reject Grace???
    Jesus came bearing Grace and Truth. The rejection of what Jesus brought The Real Deal rather than the shadow is what Paul is warning us not to reject here.

    But Paul is not telling us these things to discourage us. Not at all. Because he ends this chapter on a very positive note.

    Heb 10:38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.
    Heb 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.


    What Christian has not willfully sinned after salvation? Have you willfully sinned? There may be a few dozen saints in the history of the world that this passage doesn't apply to, but I doubt it's much more than that. So if this passage is true, then it would appear that heaven is very sparsely populated.

    Bottom line: Appealing to our "good intent" has nothing to do with the fact that the Bible teaches everyone will be judged by God according to what they have done. It doesn't help if you have "faith in Jesus" because you still have willfully sinned with bad intent and so will be judged accordingly.

    And what if "what we have done" is to reject Paul's statement that the atonement that was "once for all" did not work? Was that once for all time? Once for all sins? Once for all people? Or all of the above?


    I find your statement that "There is no righteousness except for imputed righteousness" absolutely meaningless. Righteousness is defined by our actions:

    1 John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

    This is the point I was making. The word "righteous" is a human word from a human language that applies to what humans do. When it is used in the Bible, it does not suddenly obtain a totally different and incoherent meaning. The idea of "righteousness" is defined as "the state of one who does what's right." I do not understand how righteousness be "imputed" to another. I don't even know what that could mean. But don't get me wrong - I understand perfectly the "logic" that Christian's use when talking about this topic. I just don't think it is coherent or that it has any actual meaning. That's why I said that this doctrine destroys the meaning of words like "sin" and "righteousness."

    "Our righteousness" may be defined by our actions (and thoughts) but it is not our righteousness that is the goal.

    John is speaking about a person who is righteous even as he (Jesus) is.
    This is a growing into him and he in us. John is speaking about fruit. Fruit of righteousness. We do not become righteous by doing good works we are able to do good works because we have become righteous.


    1jo 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

    1jo 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
    1jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
    1jo 3:5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
    1jo 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.



    Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

    It is the righteousness of God that is the goal. That is what is imputed.

    2co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 2co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

    This is what I mean by imputed righteousness.

    That's a very interesting way to put it. But it seems to contradict your previous statement that "righteousness is imputed."

    Imputed is just a word. It is a gift. That is my point. It was not earned.

    In any case, here's the problem: Righteousness is not defined as "right standing with God." That's a theological definition that was invented long after the Bible was written. A proper dictionary will define what the words mean in the Koine Greek, not what some theologian has interpreted them to mean! This is a very common problem with Bible dictionaries, especially Strong's. A few of the more egregious examples are collected in the thread called Strong futurist bias in Strong's definitions.

    Again theological arguments. Too deep for me. My point here is that we are righteous in God's opinion. By His gift. That is Grace. When He forgives, He forgets, unlike us. Though, we are to grow into this same mind set.

    Sure, all healthy people have experienced guilt at times in their lives. But obsessive or unresolved guilt is itself an illness under which healthy people do not suffer. Christianity can really help people who are sick with guilt. But it is neither needed nor helpful for those who do not have unhealthy guilt about their own existence. That's why Christians try to make people feel guilty. It's really rather sad. Folks must first be convinced that God sees them as guilty and sin-sick so they can then be sold the "cure."

    When you say Christianity I realize you are speaking about the so called churches that teach the law and profess to be Christian. That is the problem. The law is old covenant, the church should be preaching the Gospel and the Kingdom of Heaven. Good news. There should be no guilt after realizing what happened at the Cross.
    That is what the Law does. And that is how it leads us to Christ. It brings every man guilty before God. We cannot fix ourselves or keep the law and so we fall on his mercy
    .

    I attended for fourteen years a chuch that tried to follow the laws as best we could in today's world. Atonement every year and clean and unclean foods etc. "The Law Shall Lead You To Christ." was quoted over and over.
    Only after years of that did it hit me how it leads us to Christ.
    We do not do it by climbing a ladder or building a tower. We do it by falling down and realizing we cannot do it.
    Then Jesus lifts us up and takes away the guilt and shame.
    I am no fan of churches as I've seen them today but it seems to me that it is a case of the blind leading the blind. We can skip the law and go right into Grace as the gentiles did in acts. But that was not my path.
    But when I finally began to smell the coffee, I removed my children from church influence because I believed, and still do, that it was just more that they would have to unlearn.

    If no one is teaching Grace, no one is learning Grace.
    Some, as you say, are trying to sell something. Snake oil salesmen. Others are sincere but misled and that includes the pastors and teachers.
    Last edited by Bob May; 07-15-2011 at 08:29 AM.

  4. #24
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    Richard, I was attempting to determine if you made a distinction between "hamartia", and "paratoma", and, if so, what is the difference. The KJV uses "sin" in many cases for each of these as if they mean the same thing.

    Joel
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38,39

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    Richard, I was attempting to determine if you made a distinction between "hamartia", and "paratoma", and, if so, what is the difference. The KJV uses "sin" in many cases for each of these as if they mean the same thing.

    Joel
    There are probably some differences in some contexts, but I don't see anything relevant to the current discussion. The words "hamartia" and "paraptoma" are synonymous when used in reference to God's forgiveness. The Gospel of God's forgiveness is expressed using either word.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    I have one question. WHAT EXACTLY IS SIN?

    It seems that before animals became self-aware (humans) there was no such thing as sin.

    Rose
    Good question Rose. Before I attempt to answer I will say that it is hasty to conclude that humans were the first of God's sentient creations to sin. The scriptures do in fact speak of angels that sinned as well and we cannot be sure whether their sin was prior to or after man's sin.

    As far as what sin is, it is described in scripture as lawlessness, disobedience, not doing what one knows is right, as well as other descriptions. If i had to put a bow on all these and link them via summary I'd say sin in not behaving or functioning in the manner and for the purposes in which we were designed as well as acting beyond one's God given realm of authority.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by throwback View Post
    Good question Rose. Before I attempt to answer I will say that it is hasty to conclude that humans were the first of God's sentient creations to sin. The scriptures do in fact speak of angels that sinned as well and we cannot be sure whether their sin was prior to or after man's sin.

    As far as what sin is, it is described in scripture as lawlessness, disobedience, not doing what one knows is right, as well as other descriptions. If i had to put a bow on all these and link them via summary I'd say sin in not behaving or functioning in the manner and for the purposes in which we were designed as well as acting beyond one's God given realm of authority.
    According to the Bible we are all born in sin because of the fall of Adam and Eve, so there is nothing we can do aside from the saving grace of Christ to rid ourselves of this inherited condition. I could be the most perfect human that has ever lived, but I would still require salvation because of my "sinful nature".

    If that is the case then what is this thing called "sin"? Because of the disobedience of Adam and Eve I am punished? It makes no sense!

    All the Best,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    According to the Bible we are all born in sin because of the fall of Adam and Eve, so there is nothing we can do aside from the saving grace of Christ to rid ourselves of this inherited condition. I could be the most perfect human that has ever lived, but I would still require salvation because of my "sinful nature".

    If that is the case then what is this thing called "sin"? Because of the disobedience of Adam and Eve I am punished? It makes no sense!

    All the Best,
    Rose
    We were born into the condition of Sin. (Not the verb, the noun.) Because of Adam's transgression.


    Sins, the verb, are thoughts and actions that transgress the law.
    That is the biblical meaning of sin.
    But where there is no law, there is no sin. And where is that? Here and now because the law was nailed to the tree with Jesus.
    We are the children of promise if we believe the promise. And like Abraham we sin not because as he was without (outside of) the law. (the promise was given before the law.) So are we without (outside of) the law.


    1jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    Ro 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
    Ro 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
    Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
    Ro 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
    Ro 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
    Ro 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
    Ro 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
    Ro 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
    Ro 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
    Ro 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
    Ro 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

    I don't think it is as important to understand sin so much as it is to be fully persuaded that we have been removed from the consequence of sin. We may not even be capable of sin anymore.

    1jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob May View Post
    We were born into the condition of Sin. (Not the verb, the noun.) Because of Adam's transgression.


    Sins, the verb, are thoughts and actions that transgress the law.
    That is the biblical meaning of sin.
    But where there is no law, there is no sin. And where is that? Here and now because the law was nailed to the tree with Jesus.
    We are the children of promise if we believe the promise. And like Abraham we sin not because as he was without (outside of) the law. (the promise was given before the law.) So are we without (outside of) the law.


    1jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

    Ro 4:14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
    Ro 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
    Ro 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
    Ro 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
    Ro 4:18 Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be.
    Ro 4:19 And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
    Ro 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
    Ro 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
    Ro 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
    Ro 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him;
    Ro 4:24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

    I don't think it is as important to understand sin so much as it is to be fully persuaded that we have been removed from the consequence of sin. We may not even be capable of sin anymore.

    1jo 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
    According to the Bible the condition of sin humanity is born into requires salvation, and those who don't receive salvation will not inherit eternal life, but rather be damned to hell!

    All the Best,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    According to the Bible the condition of sin humanity is born into requires salvation, and those who don't receive salvation will not inherit eternal life, but rather be damned to hell!

    All the Best,
    Rose

    Hi Rose,
    So your point is what? You don't like the biblical definition?
    What could be better than it is "transgression of the law" seeing that if we believe, we are no longer under law and therefore no longer under the curse of sin?
    What could be easier?


    Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
    Ro 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
    Ro 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
    Ro 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.
    Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    What could be better? We go from faith in the laws of cause and effect,..sin and death, to the law of recieving righteousness by no effort of our own. Merely believing what has been written on the subject.

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