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  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob May View Post
    Hi Rose,
    So your point is what? You don't like the biblical definition?
    What could be better than it is "transgression of the law" seeing that if we believe, we are no longer under law and therefore no longer under the curse of sin?
    What could be easier?


    Ro 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
    Ro 1:17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
    Ro 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
    Ro 1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath showed it unto them.
    Ro 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

    What could be better? We go from faith in the laws of cause and effect,..sin and death, to the law of recieving righteousness by no effort of our own. Merely believing what has been written on the subject.
    My point is the question I first ask, "what exactly is sin?" Sin cannot be both "a condition we are born into" and "transgression of the law". Since according to the Bible we are all born in a sinful condition, then it matters not if one transgresses the law because we are already in need of salvation to attain eternal life.

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    My point is the question I first ask, "what exactly is sin?" Sin cannot be both "a condition we are born into" and "transgression of the law".
    Rose
    That is my view of reality. It works for me. It explains much that did not make sense before in both my life and scriptures.
    Do you have an alternative viewpoint?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Since according to the Bible we are all born in a sinful condition, then it matters not if one transgresses the law because we are already in need of salvation to attain eternal life.
    Rose
    As far as salvation goes, I think that is pretty much true. Keeping the law (rules and regulations) saves no one and does not take away sin.

    But the law is good on more than one level.
    It brings every man guilty before God because we fail at keeping it. Our conscience accuses us and tells us we are not living up to God's standard.

    And it is also for the ungodly in the sense that, without the law, a lot more people would be taking advantage of others. Without some form of limitation on behavior in society.
    So in that sense it does matter.

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob May View Post
    That is my view of reality. It works for me. It explains much that did not make sense before in both my life and scriptures.
    Do you have an alternative viewpoint?
    It's not so much that I need an alternative viewpoint, but rather that I see huge errors in the biblical idea and definition of sin.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bob May View Post
    As far as salvation goes, I think that is pretty much true. Keeping the law (rules and regulations) saves no one and does not take away sin.

    But the law is good on more than one level.
    It brings every man guilty before God because we fail at keeping it. Our conscience accuses us and tells us we are not living up to God's standard.

    And it is also for the ungodly in the sense that, without the law, a lot more people would be taking advantage of others. Without some form of limitation on behavior in society.
    So in that sense it does matter.
    The big problem I see with "the Law" as presented in the Bible is that much of it causes people to take advantage and abuse others. For example many of the biblical laws concerning women, allow men to take total advantage of the woman by keeping her from fulfilling her intellectual capacity, and potential as a human, which is equal to that of a man. Also, many of the biblical laws promote male dominance and abuse of women, viewing women as mere vessels for reproduction, or servants of men.

    All the Best,
    Rose
    Last edited by Rose; 07-16-2011 at 11:10 AM.
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    It's not so much that I need an alternative viewpoint, but rather that I see huge errors in the biblical idea and definition of sin.
    Rose
    I think that might be the problem. You see errors instead of puzzles to be solved. If I read something I don't understand I know it is me that is the problem. I don't change biblical definitions to fit mine. I try to understand what I am reading but if I can't I don't worry about it. The answer will come eventually.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    The big problem I see with "the Law" as presented in the Bible is that much of it causes people to take advantage and abuse others. For example many of the biblical laws concerning women, allow men to take total advantage of the woman by keeping her from fulfilling her intellectual capacity, and potential as a human, which is equal to that of a man. Also, many of the biblical laws promote male dominance and abuse of women, viewing women as mere vessels for reproduction, or servants of men.
    All the Best,
    Rose
    That is the fault of those using it to take advantage not the bible's fault.
    People wanted to stone the aduteress. They were using the biblical law to stone her. Jesus saw more to the law than they did. He called them the weightier matters of the law,.. Mercy and Judgement. He thought those things were more important than stoning the woman.
    He also demonstrated by his body language that the spirit of the law was "above" (weightier) than the letter.
    Bottom line was that those who were wanting to stone her were convicted in their hearts and the woman was not condemned or stoned.
    We are supposed to look deeper than the surface meanings.
    If something does not make sense it is a sign to look deeper.

    Nuclear energy can be used to blow up a city, power a city or destroy a tumor.
    Mankind will always find right and wrong ways to use power or knowledge. That doesn't mean that the knowledge the problem.

    I learned a long time ago that you cannot change someone elses personality. The best we can do is try and influence the better side of people that we come into contact with.

    The law in scripture and in society is there to control those who would take advantage of others. It would be much worse if we didn't have laws. There would be much more murder, rape, theft, and violence etc. without consequences for those lawless acts. Whether those consequences were spending years in prison or eternity in Hell.
    But, like I said, you cannot change personalities and some will always do the crime anyway even at the risk of damnation or prison. And some because of the thrill of the risk.

    We live in a screwed up world. Don't "kill the messenger." (Meaning the bible.)

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob May View Post
    I think that might be the problem. You see errors instead of puzzles to be solved. If I read something I don't understand I know it is me that is the problem. I don't change biblical definitions to fit mine. I try to understand what I am reading but if I can't I don't worry about it. The answer will come eventually.
    I'm not changing biblical definitions, rather I am rejecting the idea of sin as a false concept created by men.




    Quote Originally Posted by Bob May View Post
    That is the fault of those using it to take advantage not the bible's fault.
    People wanted to stone the aduteress. They were using the biblical law to stone her. Jesus saw more to the law than they did. He called them the weightier matters of the law,.. Mercy and Judgement. He thought those things were more important than stoning the woman.
    He also demonstrated by his body language that the spirit of the law was "above" (weightier) than the letter.
    Bottom line was that those who were wanting to stone her were convicted in their hearts and the woman was not condemned or stoned.
    We are supposed to look deeper than the surface meanings.
    If something does not make sense it is a sign to look deeper.

    Nuclear energy can be used to blow up a city, power a city or destroy a tumor.
    Mankind will always find right and wrong ways to use power or knowledge. That doesn't mean that the knowledge the problem.

    I learned a long time ago that you cannot change someone elses personality. The best we can do is try and influence the better side of people that we come into contact with.

    The law in scripture and in society is there to control those who would take advantage of others. It would be much worse if we didn't have laws. There would be much more murder, rape, theft, and violence etc. without consequences for those lawless acts. Whether those consequences were spending years in prison or eternity in Hell.
    But, like I said, you cannot change personalities and some will always do the crime anyway even at the risk of damnation or prison. And some because of the thrill of the risk.

    We live in a screwed up world. Don't "kill the messenger." (Meaning the bible.)
    It most definitely is the Bible's fault. Those laws which state women are the property of men, and women are to be in subjection to men are clearly written in the Bible...people just take advantage of them for their own gain.

    I'm not blaming the messenger, rather I am stating that the message the messenger is carrying is WRONG.

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  6. #36
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    O. K, Rose, we have heard the multitude of things that are wrong with the Bible.

    So, I offer a challenge.................
    is there one thing right with it?? (...just one).

    I apologize if you have stated the answer before, and I missed it.

    Joel
    For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:38,39

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by joel View Post
    O. K, Rose, we have heard the multitude of things that are wrong with the Bible.

    So, I offer a challenge.................
    is there one thing right with it?? (...just one).

    I apologize if you have stated the answer before, and I missed it.

    Joel
    Hi Joel,

    The Bible is a wonderful piece of ancient literature. It is only when men take it to be the "word of God" that problems arise. Many truths and great wisdom are found in the pages of Scripture, especially the teachings of Jesus...who promoted equality amongst all peoples - Jew and Gentile, male and female.

    In all my writings I have been clear to say that the only flaw I have with the Bible is what it is held to be...that alone has caused good men to do wicked things all because they believe it to contain the words of the one true God compelling people to obey its commands no matter how inequitable they are.

    All the Best,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    I'm not changing biblical definitions, rather I am rejecting the idea of sin as a false concept created by men.
    Rose
    So, there is no sin? Just false concepts?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    It most definitely is the Bible's fault. Those laws which state women are the property of men, and women are to be in subjection to men are clearly written in the Bible...people just take advantage of them for their own gain.

    I'm not blaming the messenger, rather I am stating that the message the messenger is carrying is WRONG.

    Rose
    I don't see it that way.
    It doesn't sound like a very useful book if the message is incorrect.

    I have been married this coming November for 30 years and I can assure you that I am in just as much submission and subjection to my wife as she is to me. That is part of the cherishing of woman. The last thing I would want to do is take advantage of her. She is a gift to me and I to her.

    Men take advantage of women, that is true. And others take advantage of men and children and animals and all kinds of evil things go on.

    Your problems seem to be with the law of the Old Testament. Which things are allegory.Why don't you just skip it? Go straight to the New Testament/New Covenant.

    Where sin is not held against us even though it still exists and people still take advantage of people and men are in submission to other men. Render to Ceasar,.. and turn the other cheek etc.
    We live in a screwed up world, no doubt.

    The bible teaches us how to live above it instead of within it. Both the Old and New Testaments teach us how.

    The purpose of the bible is to tell us about the condition we are in. And how to change it if we so choose to.
    There are two conditions that we can be in, under the law or under grace.
    To move from one to the other is a free gift and changes our relationship with God, Man and the world around us.

    If you search for errors you will find errors (even if they are not errors at all.)
    If you seek Truth you will find that also.

    I grew up with an alcoholic father. I notice that whenever my sisters bring up the subject it seems to still have an effect on their mindset even after so many years.
    I used to think of it that way too but now I just see him as a victim.
    It took a great change in attitude for me to forgive him.

    "No one is doing anything to anyone," was a statement that helped me to see that it is our attitude that is the most important thing. Our perspective in life.

    "There, but for the grace of God go I." Ignorance of God's grace is the problem. With the awareness of Grace even those who take advantage are changed.

    All the best,
    Bob

  9. #39
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    It seems to me that an concept of inbred sin from brith would be in error, but I do see where people read into that concept.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob May View Post
    So, there is no sin? Just false concepts?
    There is no sin according to the biblical concept. Yes, people do bad things to each other, but that has nothing to do with the mythological disobedience of Adam and Eve causing humankind to henceforth be born in sin requiring a savior.



    Quote Originally Posted by Bob May View Post
    I don't see it that way.
    It doesn't sound like a very useful book if the message is incorrect.

    I have been married this coming November for 30 years and I can assure you that I am in just as much submission and subjection to my wife as she is to me. That is part of the cherishing of woman. The last thing I would want to do is take advantage of her. She is a gift to me and I to her.

    Men take advantage of women, that is true. And others take advantage of men and children and animals and all kinds of evil things go on.

    Your problems seem to be with the law of the Old Testament. Which things are allegory.Why don't you just skip it? Go straight to the New Testament/New Covenant.

    Where sin is not held against us even though it still exists and people still take advantage of people and men are in submission to other men. Render to Ceasar,.. and turn the other cheek etc.
    We live in a screwed up world, no doubt.

    The bible teaches us how to live above it instead of within it. Both the Old and New Testaments teach us how.

    The purpose of the bible is to tell us about the condition we are in. And how to change it if we so choose to.
    There are two conditions that we can be in, under the law or under grace.
    To move from one to the other is a free gift and changes our relationship with God, Man and the world around us.

    If you search for errors you will find errors (even if they are not errors at all.)
    If you seek Truth you will find that also.

    I grew up with an alcoholic father. I notice that whenever my sisters bring up the subject it seems to still have an effect on their mindset even after so many years.
    I used to think of it that way too but now I just see him as a victim.
    It took a great change in attitude for me to forgive him.

    "No one is doing anything to anyone," was a statement that helped me to see that it is our attitude that is the most important thing. Our perspective in life.

    "There, but for the grace of God go I." Ignorance of God's grace is the problem. With the awareness of Grace even those who take advantage are changed.

    All the best,
    Bob
    From my in-depth research I have concluded that the content of the Bible is derived from the minds of men, thus it is not the word of God. With that in mind I realize that the Bible contains the ideas and wisdom of men and as such I can pick and choose what parts I think are beneficial to my spiritual growth.

    The teachings of Jesus are very advanced for his time period, promoting equality among all people, and a love of our fellow-man.

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

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