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  1. #1
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    Old & New Covenant Saints Martyred.

    I would like to hear your pro's and con's concerning my thought on the subject of those martyred and seen as the Two Witnessess. First let me make the connection of the Two Witnessess as candlestick's and two olive trees. We can fine within Revelation itself what is defined as 'candlesticks' which would be the church(s).

    Rev.1:20
    The mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands: The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands which you saw[a] are the seven churches.(NKJV)

    So in this case we have two churches which are said to preach/prophesy the Word of God. I would also like for us to notice the amount of time they where to prophesy the Word of God which would be "a thousand two hundren and threescore (3x20)days"

    Lets also consider that after their prophesing they were killed (martyred). Taking these parts and reading the passage from Revelation 6:9-11 of these martyred saints I would like to have your opinions.

    Rev.6:9-11
    When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls [psychē] of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood [haima] on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.


    We can look in Genesis 2:7 that soul (nephesh in Hebrew) is what gives life to the body. In Leviticus we see that "the life of the flesh is in the blood". The word “life” is a translation of the Hebrew word "nephesh" that is translated as “soul”. Therefore, what is “nephesh”? According to Genesis 2:7 soul is what gives life to the body. Where is the “nephesh”, the life of the body, the soul? According to Leviticus 17:11-14 it is in the blood: "For the life (nephesh, soul) of the flesh is in the blood.

    Genesis 2:7
    And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    Lev.17:11
    For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul

    So I would then read Revelation 6:9 as those under the altar as those that have been martyred and their blood crys out to God for vengence. But they were told to wait until their fellow servants shall also be killed. This is where I would like to lay out some thoughts. If we can understand that in the Old Covenant [Testament] that there was a time recorded by Daniel that the stars would fall [be killed] to the ground in the time when Antiochus IV would reign of which he killed many saints and what John has recorded about martyred saints from under the altar and those fellow servants. John would be seeing these as the churches. These martyred saints would be one of the Two Witnesses [churches].

    I hope you can follow alone. If these are then, we have two churches represented by John as the Two Witnesses the Old Covenant saints and the New Covenant saints which would be likewise killed by the beast kingdom.
    Last edited by Beck; 06-27-2011 at 02:09 PM.

  2. #2
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    I will try to clear up any missunderstanding from by opening post. What I'm proposing is like with the Old Testament/Covenant as a Type and Shadow of the Anti-Type that is founded in the New Testament/Covenant. In this post I hope to show what I'm proposing concerning the Martyred Saints. The context passages would be taken from Daniel and Revelation.

    OLD COVENANT SAINTS

    Type and Shadow

    Daniel 7 & 8 Many of these passages speak of the saints being prevailed over whom to maked war with them. Verse 9-12 concerns with a 'little horn' which I certain refers to Antiochus IV in that he casted down some of the host of heaven and star to the ground and stamped upon them. I'm certain that these host and stars of heaven is a representation of the faithful to God as saints. These are said to be at war with the little horn until the Ancient of days came and judgment was given to the saints. That time that was given to make war with the saints and to prevail over them was a time and times and the dividing of time.(kjv) So here we have a number of symbols that can be seen as types and shadows. Which I believe to be used as typology to then parallel with the real.

    • Beast kingdom

    • Image worshiped

    • Saints martyed

    • Temple sacrifices desolated
    • time,times, and half/1260 days



    NEW COVENANT SAINTS

    Real and Fulfilments

    Revelation 6:9-11 Here I'm proposing that those under the altar is an reference to those that give their life and that their blood crys out for vengence. We look at Daniel and we can see these martyred saints as Daniel descibed them as the host and stars of heaven being casted down to the ground. These then was told to wait...until their fellow servants would likewise be killed. I'm proposing that these would be those of out of great tribulation that Jesus himself spoke of that if the days wasn't short that even the elect of God would not be saved. We can see that John in Revelation told of this time of tribulation that the Beast would make war with the saints and kill all that would not take nor worship the Beast image. That time frame that the beast kingdom was given was 42 months the same as or equal to the time, times and half, 1260 days. I will say that many see these from Daniel and Revelation as depecting the same event, but I think Daniel's is to be a type and what Revelation fortold is the Real event. Again we can fine the same symbols in Revelation.


    • Beast kingdom

    • Image worshiped

    • Saints martyred

    • time, times and half/1260 days/forty and two months


    The only exception would be the Temple in the first century the Temple wasn't just desolated of it's sacrifices, but destoryed completely. So when viewing how John spoke of the Temple of God and measuring the Temple of God and the Altar, and them that worship therein.(Rev.11) That would seem to be given the impression of the churches. The Old Testament Church and the New Testament Church of those that laided down their lives for the Lamb of God loving not their lives unto death.

    These Two Churches prophesied the Word of God as fire coming out of their mouths and these both were given to prophesy for forty and two months.

  3. #3
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    Pondering even more...Zechariah 4:14 " Then said, he Theses are the anointed ones that stand by the Lord of the whole earth".


    I wanted to point out that 'anointed ones' can be translated 'chosen ones' and that word is given to the Messiah as well noting the 'Anointed'.

    What comes to my mind is how the description of these two olive trees are described. From Zechariah 4:11 it relates that one is on the right side of the candelstick and the other is on the left side. This parallels with how the tree of life is described in Revelation 22:2 where a tree of life is on both sides of the river of life. Now some see and understand these as refering to the words of God in the old testament then Christ as the candelstick then the new testament.

    These two stand for and witnesses of Christ the river of life. Using the 'anointed' ones as the chosen or the elect of God as the old testament saints and new testament saints bear witnesses of Jesus the Christ. These again would be those mentioned that where witnesses of Jesus and for the word of God showing both the old and new testament saints that were martyred. Rev.20:4 So no I don't see the two witnesses as heavenly angels, but those that were martyred for Christ name sake and for the word of God as these where messengers of God and not angels as some may propose.

  4. #4
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    Hi Beck! I know it's been a long while since I last started conversing with everyone. I had to take a badly needed break.

    Anyways, some interpret the two witnesses as both the Covenant Jews and the Gentile's who were grafted together. This may be how I interpret it, but never dug that deep into it as of yet.

    More to come.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    Hi Beck! I know it's been a long while since I last started conversing with everyone. I had to take a badly needed break.

    Anyways, some interpret the two witnesses as both the Covenant Jews and the Gentile's who were grafted together. This may be how I interpret it, but never dug that deep into it as of yet.

    More to come.

    Joe

    Hey, Joe

    I in the past have consider that, but thought my approach seems it fit even more. The reason being is that in both covenants the old and new that there was a remnant and Jesus made it clear that the pharisees Fathers killed the prophets and saints in both.

    It's always great to hear from you.

  6. #6
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    Just doing some more research on the Two Witnesses and I came across this site which I believe brings out much of what I was trying to in this thread.

    http://www.thepreteristpost.com/reth...-witnesses-ii-

  7. #7
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    I'm interested in your explanation of the two witnesses my friend.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    I'm interested in your explanation of the two witnesses my friend.

    Joe
    Where should we start?
    Beck

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