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Thread: Play on words

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Excellent example of wordplay in the Bible! :thumb:

    There are things in the Scriptures that simply cannot be seen in translation.

    Such wordplay can also be used to help determine the the original language of parts of the Bible. For example, John the Baptist probably spoke in Aramaic because he made a word play on ABNYM (evenim, stones) and BNYM (benim, children):
    Matthew 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
    There is no such wordplay in the Greek version which uses the words lithon (stones) and tekna (children).

    Finding such wordplay is one of the joys of reading the Bible in the Hebrew and Greek.
    I wonder what the meaning of summer is. Why is it termed as summer fruits instead of fresh fruits or rotten fruits?

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    I wonder what the meaning of summer is. Why is it termed as summer fruits instead of fresh fruits or rotten fruits?
    It was a vision. Visions in the Bible often use puns.
    Amos 8:1 Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me: and behold a basket of summer fruit. 2 And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit [qeytz]. Then said the LORD unto me, The end [qetz] is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.
    We see the same style in Jeremiah:
    Jeremiah 1:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Jeremiah, what seest thou? And I said, I see a rod of an almond [shaqad] tree. 12 Then said the LORD unto me, Thou hast well seen: for I will hasten [shaqad] my word to perform it.
    See that? The object shown in the vision is a pun on the central word of the message.
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  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    It was a vision. Visions in the Bible often use puns.
    Amos 8:1 Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me: and behold a basket of summer fruit. 2 And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit [qeytz]. Then said the LORD unto me, The end [qetz] is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.
    We see the same style in Jeremiah:
    Jeremiah 1:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Jeremiah, what seest thou? And I said, I see a rod of an almond [shaqad] tree. 12 Then said the LORD unto me, Thou hast well seen: for I will hasten [shaqad] my word to perform it.
    See that? The object shown in the vision is a pun on the central word of the message.
    Why would it be called summer fruits though? Is it because it's not ripe yet? Because fruits get ripe in the fall.

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    Why would it be called summer fruits though? Is it because it's not ripe yet? Because fruits get ripe in the fall.
    In the Hebrew Bible, there are only two named seasons, summer and winter.
    Genesis 8:22 While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest (qatzir), and cold and heat, and summer (qeytz) and winter, and day and night shall not cease.
    Summer was the time of harvest:
    Proverbs 10:5 He that gathereth in summer (qeytz) is a wise son: but he that sleepeth in harvest (qetzir) is a son that causeth shame.
    These words are found together elsewhere:
    Isaiah 16:9 Therefore I will bewail with the weeping of Jazer the vine of Sibmah: I will water thee with my tears, O Heshbon, and Elealeh: for the shouting for thy summer fruits (qeytz) and for thy harvest (qatzir) is fallen.
    Here is a link with a little info about the two seasons in the OT:

    http://www.bible-history.com/geograp...hs_israel.html
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post
    Sure, I could see that, but when Jesus said that John Baptist was Elijah (for those who could 'receive' it); then I could compare Elisha's record to that of Jesus himself. The TIMES weren't a part of that; I actually go back to seeing the Genesis 2K period as "pre-Law", rather than part of the LAW as many teach. And these differences and similarities have helped too.
    Yeah, I've seen that comparison between John/Jesus and Elijah/Elisha before and I think it has some merit. But it shouldn't be pushed too far. For example, Elijah raised a boy from the dead and did other miracles, whereas John the Baptist "did no miracle" (or at least that's what folks said about him, John 10:41). And more importantly, such parallels are useful for illustrating doctrines that are explicitly taught elsewhere in the Bible, but if folks start using them to make up doctrines then they might as well toss out the Bible because they can make it say whatever they want.
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  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Yeah, I've seen that comparison between John/Jesus and Elijah/Elisha before and I think it has some merit. But it shouldn't be pushed too far. For example, Elijah raised a boy from the dead and did other miracles, whereas John the Baptist "did no miracle" (or at least that's what folks said about him, John 10:41). And more importantly, such parallels are useful for illustrating doctrines that are explicitly taught elsewhere in the Bible, but if folks start using them to make up doctrines then they might as well toss out the Bible because they can make it say whatever they want.
    Making up doctrines? That's not the same as understanding in a different way, or maybe according to the way you've been taught... John21:25 "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written".

    Now that we've learned that Jesus is "the Word" as well as the Messiah and Promised Son (as Isaac was..) I think we're Expected to be weaned from those old maid stories and pursue the real MEAT of the 66 Books!
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post
    Making up doctrines? That's not the same as understanding in a different way, or maybe according to the way you've been taught... John21:25 "And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written".

    Now that we've learned that Jesus is "the Word" as well as the Messiah and Promised Son (as Isaac was..) I think we're Expected to be weaned from those old maid stories and pursue the real MEAT of the 66 Books!
    Yes, that makes sense, but on the other hand, folks can't agree about the main and plain things of the Bible, so anything you "glean" by creative interpretations will have value only to you and other like minded folks. In other words, it won't have any objective value since it's really just "what you want to believe." Now I can very much appreciate using the Bible as a personal "mystical book" into which you can gaze like a divine Rorschach inkblot to gain insights into God, the Universe, and Everything, but then it is not fundamentally different than any other form of divination like Tarot Cards, I Ching, or Tea Leaves. My point of all this is to say that most folks seem to think that the value of the Bible is it's objective truth whereas you are advocating it's value for insights into your own subjectivity. And I think you might be touching the true value of the Bible. It may be that the insistence on it's "literal meaning" and "objective truth" has destroyed it's true value.

    Does this make any sense? I would guess that you might want to hold to both literal and mystical interpretations. But I wonder, do you think it matters if a person believes the Bible? Or does it just add to the quality of life for those who believe, but it doesn't really matter?

    So many questions!

    I do love ruminating on them!

    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
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