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  1. #1
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    Play on words

    Isaiah 5:7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant: and he looked for judgment, but behold oppression; for righteousness, but behold a cry.

    more:
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  2. #2
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    Amos 8:1-2 Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me: and behold a basket of summer fruit. And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the LORD unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.

    When I read this in English I would wonder, "How is summer fruits related to the end?"

  3. #3
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    Spoiled Fruit?
    Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: Matt 3:8

    Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Mt 7:16

    Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Mt 7:20

    Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 21:34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. Matt 21:33

    Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Matt 21:43

    Sounds to me like the 'fruit' of the Hebrews was spoiled, and now the 'fruit' of the Gentiles is being given a like amount of time... could be? :-)
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post
    Spoiled Fruit?
    Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: Matt 3:8

    Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Mt 7:16

    Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them. Mt 7:20

    Hear another parable: There was a certain householder, which planted a vineyard, and hedged it round about, and digged a winepress in it, and built a tower, and let it out to husbandmen, and went into a far country: 21:34 And when the time of the fruit drew near, he sent his servants to the husbandmen, that they might receive the fruits of it. Matt 21:33

    Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Matt 21:43

    Sounds to me like the 'fruit' of the Hebrews was spoiled, and now the 'fruit' of the Gentiles is being given a like amount of time... could be? :-)
    Where did you find the concept of "like amount of time" in those verses?

    Are you presuming that the New Covenant Gospel is as weak as the Old Covenant Law, and will produce "bad fruit?"
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  5. #5
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    Hi Ram.. Nope, didn't see the 'equal time' concept nec. in the Fruit verses, but rather from the "Times of the Jews & Gentiles" in the NT, as well as the 7 yrs. of Rachel & Leah, and the two dreams of the Pharaoh.

    Galatians 3:24 "they were a schoolmaster", inclines me to see the OT as a necessary prerequisite for the NT -- hindsight is valuable for connecting the physical to the figurative, IMO. The 2 Covenants (Gal 4:24) are different (1Cor12:5), but its the NT which leads to the 'Promised Land' of Heaven for those so inclined.. (the 66 Books are One!)
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post
    Hi Ram.. Nope, didn't see the 'equal time' concept nec. in the Fruit verses, but rather from the "Times of the Jews & Gentiles" in the NT, as well as the 7 yrs. of Rachel & Leah, and the two dreams of the Pharaoh.

    Galatians 3:24 "they were a schoolmaster", inclines me to see the OT as a necessary prerequisite for the NT -- hindsight is valuable for connecting the physical to the figurative, IMO. The 2 Covenants (Gal 4:24) are different (1Cor12:5), but its the NT which leads to the 'Promised Land' of Heaven for those so inclined.. (the 66 Books are One!)
    Oh yes, I understand. That makes sense. But it seems like you are hanging a very large weight on a very small thread! The Bible doesn't actually define the "times of the Gentiles" so folks are free to make up whatever they want depending on their presuppositions. That's why I always focused on the "main and plain" things established by many clear and unambiguous mutually confirming verses when I was a Christian. Of course, there is another aspect of Scripture - the mystical - that is based on intuitions and "hints" in the Bible. And that is perhaps the most important because it is the "living" aspect. But it also is very subjective so you can't go around claiming it is "true" in an objective sense. And this is where folks make the biggest mistake. They mix up the subjective and objective aspects of Scripture.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    When I read this in English I would wonder, "How is summer fruits related to the end?"
    Amos 8:1-2 Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me: and behold a basket of summer fruit. And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit. Then said the LORD unto me, The end is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.

    Excellent example of wordplay in the Bible!

    There are things in the Scriptures that simply cannot be seen in translation.

    Such wordplay can also be used to help determine the the original language of parts of the Bible. For example, John the Baptist probably spoke in Aramaic because he made a word play on ABNYM (evenim, stones) and BNYM (benim, children):
    Matthew 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
    There is no such wordplay in the Greek version which uses the words lithon (stones) and tekna (children).

    Finding such wordplay is one of the joys of reading the Bible in the Hebrew and Greek.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Excellent example of wordplay in the Bible! :thumb:

    There are things in the Scriptures that simply cannot be seen in translation.

    Such wordplay can also be used to help determine the the original language of parts of the Bible. For example, John the Baptist probably spoke in Aramaic because he made a word play on ABNYM (evenim, stones) and BNYM (benim, children):
    Matthew 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
    There is no such wordplay in the Greek version which uses the words lithon (stones) and tekna (children).

    Finding such wordplay is one of the joys of reading the Bible in the Hebrew and Greek.
    I wonder what the meaning of summer is. Why is it termed as summer fruits instead of fresh fruits or rotten fruits?

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by gilgal View Post
    I wonder what the meaning of summer is. Why is it termed as summer fruits instead of fresh fruits or rotten fruits?
    It was a vision. Visions in the Bible often use puns.
    Amos 8:1 Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me: and behold a basket of summer fruit. 2 And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit [qeytz]. Then said the LORD unto me, The end [qetz] is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.
    We see the same style in Jeremiah:
    Jeremiah 1:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Jeremiah, what seest thou? And I said, I see a rod of an almond [shaqad] tree. 12 Then said the LORD unto me, Thou hast well seen: for I will hasten [shaqad] my word to perform it.
    See that? The object shown in the vision is a pun on the central word of the message.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    It was a vision. Visions in the Bible often use puns.
    Amos 8:1 Thus hath the Lord GOD shewed unto me: and behold a basket of summer fruit. 2 And he said, Amos, what seest thou? And I said, A basket of summer fruit [qeytz]. Then said the LORD unto me, The end [qetz] is come upon my people of Israel; I will not again pass by them any more.
    We see the same style in Jeremiah:
    Jeremiah 1:11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, Jeremiah, what seest thou? And I said, I see a rod of an almond [shaqad] tree. 12 Then said the LORD unto me, Thou hast well seen: for I will hasten [shaqad] my word to perform it.
    See that? The object shown in the vision is a pun on the central word of the message.
    Why would it be called summer fruits though? Is it because it's not ripe yet? Because fruits get ripe in the fall.

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