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  1. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by debz View Post
    Hi Rose,

    He hasn’t kept it hidden for 2 millennia. It has been available to be seen by any—but not all do see.

    He also added, in John 16:12-13
    "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. "But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.'

    Jesus didn’t say, 'I’m going away so that a book can be written about Me to guide you into all truth…' He said He had many more things to say…but they couldn’t bear them now. He said it was the Holy Spirit who would guide us into all the truth…that the Holy Spirit wouldn’t be speaking on His own initiative, but would be speaking only what He hears…and He would disclose to us what is to come. It is the Holy Spirit who discloses to us what is to come… it is the Holy Spirit who speaks to us the 'many more things' Jesus had to say, that aren’t written in 'plain language' in the Bible, when we are able to bear it.
    Hi Deb,

    If a book hadn't been written there would be no Christianity, and no one would know about the Holy Spirit that is supposed to guide them in all truth. It is because of the written word that the words of Jesus and Paul are available to be interpreted. The problem I see with what people call revelation from the Holy Spirit is that everyone has a different interpretation and understanding.

    Quote Originally Posted by debz View Post
    When I look around this forum and Christendom in general, everybody has an 'interpretation' on 'what is to come' (their eschatological views, etc.), but Jesus Himself said it was the Holy Spirit who would disclose this, NOT the logos ('plain language') of the Bible. Everyone is trying to deduce events based on the logos of the Bible, but without the Holy Spirit, this is impossible. This does NOT mean that I discount the Bible in ANY way. I believe the logos fully backs up the revealed, proceeding Word of God, when seen through the eyes of revelation. Until then, it is still 'hidden' from 'plain view'—even from professing Christians! Jesus said, "man doesn't live by bread alone, but by every word that PROCEEDS from the mouth of God" -- this is what is proceeding NOW, by the Holy Spirit--not was HAS proceeded in the past...(although, again, this does not discount the past Word/written Word--it will still confirm the proceeding Word if rightly divided...)
    Without the logos of the Bible there would be no teaching for the Holy Spirit to guide people in, but even so huge problems arise because of all the conflicting words that people feel the Holy Spirit is telling them. After two thousand years no one is any closer to understanding the Bible. The only thing that happens is more and more divisions and more and more doctrines.



    All the best,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  2. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi Deb,

    If a book hadn't been written there would be no Christianity, and no one would know about the Holy Spirit that is supposed to guide them in all truth. It is because of the written word that the words of Jesus and Paul are available to be interpreted. The problem I see with what people call revelation from the Holy Spirit is that everyone has a different interpretation and understanding.



    Without the logos of the Bible there would be no teaching for the Holy Spirit to guide people in, but even so huge problems arise because of all the conflicting words that people feel the Holy Spirit is telling them. After two thousand years no one is any closer to understanding the Bible. The only thing that happens is more and more divisions and more and more doctrines.



    All the best,
    Rose
    Hi Rose,

    I guess I didn't make it clear enough that I do believe the Bible to be the Word of God and source of Truth. I LOVE the Word...have devoured the Word for years...I am NOT discounting the Bible in any way!! What I was saying is that Jesus Himself said that it would be the Holy Spirit who would lead us into Truth, and it would be the Holy Spirit who would tell us "what is to come."

    How does the Holy Spirit do this? As Peter affirmed when the Holy Spirit was first poured out--he quoted the prophet Joel:

    Joel 2:28-30
    I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
    Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
    your old men will dream dreams,
    your young men will see visions.
    29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
    I will pour out my Spirit in those days.
    30 I will show wonders in the heavens
    and on the earth,
    blood and fire and billows of smoke.
    NIV

    This is just part of the whole prophecy...and only part of it was fulfilled in Acts...the rest is being fulfilled now (another thread, I know...). Anyway...how does the Spirit speak according to this, and according to Peter's words? "Your sons and daughters will PROPHESY. Your old men will DREAM DREAMS. Your young men will see VISIONS...on my servants BOTH MEN AND WOMEN, I will pour out my Spirit in those days.... THIS is how the Holy Spirit primarily communicates: prophecy, dreams and visions--signs and wonders in the heavens and on earth!! He communicates through the supernatural and revelation (part of prophecy).

    Yes, I am fully aware of how many in the church interpret things differently, and how that has led to all the different denominations, etc. Actually, I believe most denominations were formed because someone got a true revelation of a piece of the Truth that God wanted to reveal at that time, but then they "camped out" around that truth--they made THAT truth be the ONLY truth they were going to give themselves to... Then someone else gets a different piece of the whole and "camps out" around that truth...and so on, and so on... As for individuals, I think you and I discussed this on another thread...most of what people call the "leading of the Holy Spirit" is simply their conscience leading. That doesn't discount the need for being led by conscience, but nor does it invalidate a TRUE leading of the Holy Spirit--it's just that MOST don't know the true leading of the Holy Spirit, although they fully believe that they do!! They fully believe they are being "led by the Spirit," although they are all seeing things so differently. That is why we can point to all of these "differences" and say, "aha--it must all be wrong, because they all think they're right, but they are all hearing things differently..." The problem does not lie in the Holy Spirit's ability to communicate to us, the problem lies in most Christians thinking they are actually being led by the Spirit when they are in fact, not. That is also why Jesus spoke in parables--to the crowds, the majority, even the religious majority, He still spoke in parables...but it was only those who would take the time, spend the time, give their heart fully to knowing Him and being known by Him that He would then reveal His secrets, and explain the parables...and eventually call them friends (He doesn't call everyone friends...and this is not an elitist thing, it is OUR choice...we can ALL get that close to Him, but until we do, He is not going to reveal His secrets haphazardly to just the "crowd." Most of Christendom is still "the crowd."

    What I DO know is everyone who IS receiving actual revelation from the Holy Spirit (not just what they claim to be revelation, which is actually intuition, suspicion, or what have you...)....but those who really receive true revelation are all saying the SAME thing--yet they may have been shown it in a different manner. When it's true, there are numerous witnesses to the Truth...it's an amazing thing. And, contrary to your claim, after 2000 years there is a growing number who really do understand what the Bible is revealing...as the Holy Spirit is telling them what is to come, but it is yet a remnant. It won't be mainstream. Mainstream is always wrong.

    ~Deb
    He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. Eph 1:9-10

  3. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by debz View Post
    Hi Rose,

    I guess I didn't make it clear enough that I do believe the Bible to be the Word of God and source of Truth. I LOVE the Word...have devoured the Word for years...I am NOT discounting the Bible in any way!! What I was saying is that Jesus Himself said that it would be the Holy Spirit who would lead us into Truth, and it would be the Holy Spirit who would tell us "what is to come."

    How does the Holy Spirit do this? As Peter affirmed when the Holy Spirit was first poured out--he quoted the prophet Joel:

    Joel 2:28-30
    I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
    Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
    your old men will dream dreams,
    your young men will see visions.
    29 Even on my servants, both men and women,
    I will pour out my Spirit in those days.
    30 I will show wonders in the heavens
    and on the earth,
    blood and fire and billows of smoke.
    NIV

    This is just part of the whole prophecy...and only part of it was fulfilled in Acts...the rest is being fulfilled now (another thread, I know...). Anyway...how does the Spirit speak according to this, and according to Peter's words? "Your sons and daughters will PROPHESY. Your old men will DREAM DREAMS. Your young men will see VISIONS...on my servants BOTH MEN AND WOMEN, I will pour out my Spirit in those days.... THIS is how the Holy Spirit primarily communicates: prophecy, dreams and visions--signs and wonders in the heavens and on earth!! He communicates through the supernatural and revelation (part of prophecy).
    Hi Deb,
    When I was a Christian I fully believed that the whole prophecy of Joel was being fulfilled in the 1st century, culminating with the destruction of Jerusalem. All through Old Testament times and up to now people have received dreams, visions, and revelations, nothing has changed. I remember one of the first churches I went to after I became a Christian, where the pastor was trying to encourage people to step out in their prophetic gifts, and he would tell the congregation to just stand up and speak whatever words came to mind...and I thought to myself those words that are coming to mind are just my own thoughts.

    One of my best friends would get prophetic messages and words of knowledge by the notebook full. Most of what she received were words of encouragement and exhortation, but what was so noticeable to me was that all her messages had the same poetic "Old English" style to them, which is not the way we speak today, so it seemed very obvious to me that she mapped the style of language she was familiar with from the Bible she read. I have found this prophetic style to be common among many Christians.



    Quote Originally Posted by debz View Post
    Yes, I am fully aware of how many in the church interpret things differently, and how that has led to all the different denominations, etc. Actually, I believe most denominations were formed because someone got a true revelation of a piece of the Truth that God wanted to reveal at that time, but then they "camped out" around that truth--they made THAT truth be the ONLY truth they were going to give themselves to... Then someone else gets a different piece of the whole and "camps out" around that truth...and so on, and so on... As for individuals, I think you and I discussed this on another thread...most of what people call the "leading of the Holy Spirit" is simply their conscience leading. That doesn't discount the need for being led by conscience, but nor does it invalidate a TRUE leading of the Holy Spirit--it's just that MOST don't know the true leading of the Holy Spirit, although they fully believe that they do!! They fully believe they are being "led by the Spirit," although they are all seeing things so differently. That is why we can point to all of these "differences" and say, "aha--it must all be wrong, because they all think they're right, but they are all hearing things differently..." The problem does not lie in the Holy Spirit's ability to communicate to us, the problem lies in most Christians thinking they are actually being led by the Spirit when they are in fact, not. That is also why Jesus spoke in parables--to the crowds, the majority, even the religious majority, He still spoke in parables...but it was only those who would take the time, spend the time, give their heart fully to knowing Him and being known by Him that He would then reveal His secrets, and explain the parables...and eventually call them friends (He doesn't call everyone friends...and this is not an elitist thing, it is OUR choice...we can ALL get that close to Him, but until we do, He is not going to reveal His secrets haphazardly to just the "crowd." Most of Christendom is still "the crowd."
    I would go so far as to say that the only way any of us are lead is by our conscience. The more in-tune we are with ourselves and the deeper we look into subconscious the more we are connected to and guided by the collective whole of the living universe.

    Throughout my whole life I have had countless intuitions, and insights which have given me great understanding into many things. The colored stain-glass Bible Wheel came from a magnificent insight I received...at the time I thought it was a revelation from God, but now I feel it was a deep connection with the archetypes of the collective whole, which we can "tap into" by becoming aware of the treasure trove of wisdom that lies in our subconscious.

    Quote Originally Posted by debz View Post
    What I DO know is everyone who IS receiving actual revelation from the Holy Spirit (not just what they claim to be revelation, which is actually intuition, suspicion, or what have you...)....but those who really receive true revelation are all saying the SAME thing--yet they may have been shown it in a different manner. When it's true, there are numerous witnesses to the Truth...it's an amazing thing. And, contrary to your claim, after 2000 years there is a growing number who really do understand what the Bible is revealing...as the Holy Spirit is telling them what is to come, but it is yet a remnant. It won't be mainstream. Mainstream is always wrong.

    ~Deb
    I feel that anything that is a true revelation of our part in the universe is available to anyone, and the way we all can receive that truth is through our intuitions, and insights. The deeper we look into ourselves, and become tuned-in to the whole, the more will be revealed...not just to a remnant, but to everyone.

    All the best,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  4. #134
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    Hi Rose,

    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi Deb,
    When I was a Christian I fully believed that the whole prophecy of Joel was being fulfilled in the 1st century, culminating with the destruction of Jerusalem. All through Old Testament times and up to now people have received dreams, visions, and revelations, nothing has changed.
    I understand you were a Preterist then, and IMO that affected your ability to see what is coming--which is why you keep saying "nothing has changed." It's kindof like the passage:

    2 Peter 3:4-7
    "They will say, "Where is this 'coming' he promised? Ever since our fathers died, everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation." 5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens existed and the earth was formed out of water and by water. 6 By these waters also the world of that time was deluged and destroyed. 7 By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire..."

    Bob May quoted on the Dumbo thread today:

    (BOB MAY): The baptism of fire comes down from above and turns and rises…This fire has already been kindled in the earth by Jesus words. It brings division because we come to see that some people will Bump their heads on the cross paths. And some will choose to go through. And we also see that at the feast of Tabernacles, this division.

    Joh 7:40 Many of the people therefore, when they heard this saying, said, Of a truth this is the Prophet.
    Joh 7:41 Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, Shall Christ come out of Galilee?
    Joh 7:42 Hath not the scripture said, That Christ cometh of the seed of David, and out of the town of Bethlehem, where David was?
    Joh 7:43 So there was a division among the people because of him.
    Joh 7:53 And every man went unto his own house.

    Each man's house is his Doctrine. That which he surrounds himself with.
    He mentioned "Tabernacles" -- this is what is being revealed, by revelation, to the remnant. This is what I have been talking about on almost every post/thread I've written on. What Bob wrote partially explains why not everyone will "see" this. I am not a "futurist" in the understanding that most who hold to that theory are. When Jesus came the first time, most didn't recognize Him or understand what His coming was about--even those who diligently studied the scriptures and prophecies for centuries--only a very few "got it" and recognized Him at His coming (a remnant). It is the same with His "second coming" -- only a remnant are "getting it" -- but that does NOT mean they are "better than" others; it does NOT mean they are the only ones who will "be saved" -- or anything like that. Peter, James and John were the "remnant" in Jesus' circle...they were shown things the others weren't--specifically, a prelude to Tabernacles, in the transfiguration scene.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    I remember one of the first churches I went to after I became a Christian, where the pastor was trying to encourage people to step out in their prophetic gifts, and he would tell the congregation to just stand up and speak whatever words came to mind...and I thought to myself those words that are coming to mind are just my own thoughts.

    One of my best friends would get prophetic messages and words of knowledge by the notebook full. Most of what she received were words of encouragement and exhortation, but what was so noticeable to me was that all her messages had the same poetic "Old English" style to them, which is not the way we speak today, so it seemed very obvious to me that she mapped the style of language she was familiar with from the Bible she read. I have found this prophetic style to be common among many Christians.
    Yes, well, it sounds like the pastor was trying to teach some baby-steps in learning to prophesy. Sometimes that does result in people just speaking their own thoughts--particularly if they haven't learned to tap into the Spirit and hear from God. And, yes, often people will prophesy in a similar "style" to others--these are still learning and growing in the prophetic, so that would be common. Kindof like how little children "mimic" their parents' style in things. This is just reflective of very young, beginning phases of the prophetic gift...we don't expect our toddlers to be able to function as adults, right? Same with those young in the prophetic.

    However, when you have someone seasoned and more mature in prophecy, it's another story. I've had a number of very accurate prophetic words, where the prophet prophesied in detail on very specific things that only God would know. Here's one small example: this past January a prophet prophesied to my husband and I that "someone had robbed from us, they had ripped us off and betrayed us" ... he also said, "God's going to give you a new business where you will have a new understanding of finances and you will make more than you ever dreamed possible." OK, this is just two of MANY things he prophesied (that were all true), but I will just explain how these two played out. After the prophecy, I was thinking, "well, nobody has really 'robbed from us' that much...so maybe this is part of the prophecy that I am to judge as not valid....and my husband already has an understanding of finances that far exceeds most people, and we already make a lot of money...so that part about a 'new business/new understanding of finances' seems really 'out there...' might have to toss that one, too...."

    That was in January. In March, we discovered that our bookkeeper of 19 years, whom we totally trusted, had been stealing from us the past couple years--to the tune of $200K cash and much more damage overall. Ripped off. Robbed. Betrayed.

    In February, we discovered a "new business idea" that indeed has given my husband even MORE (far more) understanding of finances than he ever had before...we are beginning now to tap into that place of "making more than we ever even dreamed..." (and trust me, we made a LOT before...this far exceeds even that).

    It's all a matter of maturity. We are supposed to "grow up" in spiritual gifts. I'm sorry that your experience has only been with very immature prophetic people...that would tend to dampen enthusiasm for it all.


    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    I would go so far as to say that the only way any of us are lead is by our conscience. The more in-tune we are with ourselves and the deeper we look into subconscious the more we are connected to and guided by the collective whole of the living universe.

    Throughout my whole life I have had countless intuitions, and insights which have given me great understanding into many things. The colored stain-glass Bible Wheel came from a magnificent insight I received...at the time I thought it was a revelation from God, but now I feel it was a deep connection with the archetypes of the collective whole, which we can "tap into" by becoming aware of the treasure trove of wisdom that lies in our subconscious.


    I feel that anything that is a true revelation of our part in the universe is available to anyone, and the way we all can receive that truth is through our intuitions, and insights. The deeper we look into ourselves, and become tuned-in to the whole, the more will be revealed...not just to a remnant, but to everyone.

    All the best,
    Rose
    Yes, as Bob pointed out, "Joh 7:53 And every man went unto his own house." ... Each man's house is his Doctrine. That which he surrounds himself with.

    You certainly have that prerogative!

    This is the "Male Bias" thread...and the time of "Tabernacles" holds great honor and responsibility for WOMEN, if they understand what it's about...which is why I'm trying to show you some of these things. In the Feast of Tabernacles, the "Great Light" that lit up all of Jerusalem originated in the Court of Women....

    All the best to you, too!

    Deb
    Last edited by debz; 12-15-2011 at 12:33 PM.
    He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. Eph 1:9-10

  5. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by debz View Post
    Hi Rose,

    Yes, well, it sounds like the pastor was trying to teach some baby-steps in learning to prophesy. Sometimes that does result in people just speaking their own thoughts--particularly if they haven't learned to tap into the Spirit and hear from God. And, yes, often people will prophesy in a similar "style" to others--these are still learning and growing in the prophetic, so that would be common. Kindof like how little children "mimic" their parents' style in things. This is just reflective of very young, beginning phases of the prophetic gift...we don't expect our toddlers to be able to function as adults, right? Same with those young in the prophetic.

    However, when you have someone seasoned and more mature in prophecy, it's another story. I've had a number of very accurate prophetic words, where the prophet prophesied in detail on very specific things that only God would know. Here's one small example: this past January a prophet prophesied to my husband and I that "someone had robbed from us, they had ripped us off and betrayed us" ... he also said, "God's going to give you a new business where you will have a new understanding of finances and you will make more than you ever dreamed possible." OK, this is just two of MANY things he prophesied (that were all true), but I will just explain how these two played out. After the prophecy, I was thinking, "well, nobody has really 'robbed from us' that much...so maybe this is part of the prophecy that I am to judge as not valid....and my husband already has an understanding of finances that far exceeds most people, and we already make a lot of money...so that part about a 'new business/new understanding of finances' seems really 'out there...' might have to toss that one, too...."

    That was in January. In March, we discovered that our bookkeeper of 19 years, whom we totally trusted, had been stealing from us the past couple years--to the tune of $200K cash and much more damage overall. Ripped off. Robbed. Betrayed.

    In February, we discovered a "new business idea" that indeed has given my husband even MORE (far more) understanding of finances than he ever had before...we are beginning now to tap into that place of "making more than we ever even dreamed..." (and trust me, we made a LOT before...this far exceeds even that).

    It's all a matter of maturity. We are supposed to "grow up" in spiritual gifts. I'm sorry that your experience has only been with very immature prophetic people...that would tend to dampen enthusiasm for it all.

    All the best to you, too!

    Deb
    Hi Deb,

    I too believe in prophetic Dreams, Visions, Intuitions, and Insights...I just don't believe the source of our prophetic thoughts are from the anthropomorphic god of the Bible, Yahweh, or a Holy Spirit sent from him. As I said in my last post, I think everyone has the ability to receive revelations if they are in-touch with their inner selves which in turn is connected to the whole living universe.

    Nice chatting with you
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  6. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rose View Post
    Hi Deb,

    I too believe in prophetic Dreams, Visions, Intuitions, and Insights...I just don't believe the source of our prophetic thoughts are from the anthropomorphic god of the Bible, Yahweh, or a Holy Spirit sent from him. As I said in my last post, I think everyone has the ability to receive revelations if they are in-touch with their inner selves which in turn is connected to the whole living universe.

    Nice chatting with you
    Rose
    Hi Rose...I think the foundation of what we believe is the same. We are all birthing into one collective Mind and Body...as One. You see , as I do, that the inner subconscious (our inner selves) is where we tap into the core of Harmony in the Universe, that is Goodness and Mercy, Joy, Humor, Beauty (etc) in ALL of Creation. It is the doctrines of man that has taken us away from our "inner child" who knew these things intuitively from the womb...and which we've both been dis-assembling(doctrines) in order to find that Core which is in and through all things.

    This foundation is as solid as a rock and a great percentage of the Church still don't know the character of this foundation they are standing on...and therefore they are still judging others without "rightly dividing" their doctrines with this foundational Truth of the unconditional Love of the Heart of the Universe.

    If we take this all out of the realm of Christian lingo...(which we need to do in order to get back to understanding the Word made Flesh in Creation) and into the unbiased realm of mathematics, which is also a valid witness in the understanding of Creation, and we both reached the same conclusion via two different approaches, there would be no question that each formula was correct, just a different method of arriving at the same conclusion.

    I have come to this same conclusion as you and I believe Deb has as well. All we're doing, is demonstrating how we've discovered it in the basic bone structure of the written Logos, through which our dreams, visions, intuitions and insights (rhema) will add muscle and sinew. So...I think if we can keep discussing this with an open mind...we're already much farther ahead than most.
    Last edited by kathryn; 12-15-2011 at 04:06 PM.

  7. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathryn View Post
    Hi Rose...I think the foundation of what we believe is the same. We are all birthing into one collective Mind and Body...as One. You see , as I do, that the inner subconscious (our inner selves) is where we tap into the core of Harmony in the Universe, that is Goodness and Mercy, Joy, Humor, Beauty (etc) in ALL of Creation. It is the doctrines of man that has taken us away from our "inner child" who knew these things intuitively from the womb...and which we've both been dis-assembling(doctrines) in order to find that Core which is in and through all things.
    Hi Kathyrn,

    Beautifully said... Our inner-selves are all reaching for the same thing, and what a joy it is when we find it in ourselves and others around us. Looking at the living universe through the lens of love is what makes all the difference. I love what you said about our inner child intuitively knowing from the womb the connectivity of all creation.


    Quote Originally Posted by kathryn View Post
    This foundation is as solid as a rock and a great percentage of the Church still don't know the character of this foundation they are standing on...and therefore they are still judging others without "rightly dividing" their doctrines with this foundational Truth of the unconditional Love of the Heart of the Universe.

    If we take this all out of the realm of Christian lingo...(which we need to do in order to get back to understanding the Word made Flesh in Creation) and into the unbiased realm of mathematics, which is also a valid witness in the understanding of Creation, and we both reached the same conclusion via two different approaches, there would be no question that each formula was correct, just a different method of arriving at the same conclusion.

    I have come to this same conclusion as you and I believe Deb has as well. All we're doing, is demonstrating how we've discovered it in the basic bone structure of the written Logos, through which our dreams, visions, intuitions and insights (rhema) will add muscle and sinew. So...I think if we can keep discussing this with an open mind...we're already much farther ahead than most.
    I love your attitude, and I totally agree about keeping our minds open...that's why Richard and I are where we're at today.

    All the best to you my friend,
    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

  8. #138
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathryn View Post
    Hi Rose...I think the foundation of what we believe is the same. Weare all birthing into one collective Mind and Body...as One. You see , as I do, that the inner subconscious (our inner selves) is where we tap into the core of Harmony in the Universe, that is Goodness and Mercy, Joy, Humor, Beauty (etc) in ALL of Creation. It is the doctrines of man that has taken us away from our "inner child" who knew these things intuitively from the womb...and which we've both been dis-assembling(doctrines) in order to find that Core which is in and through all things.

    This foundation is as solid as a rock and a great percentage of the Church still don't know the character of this foundation they are standing on...and therefore they are still judging others without "rightly dividing" their doctrines with this foundational Truth of the unconditional Love of the Heart of the Universe.

    If we take this all out of the realm of Christian lingo...(which we need to do in order to get back to understanding the Word made Flesh in Creation) and into the unbiased realm of mathematics, which is also a valid witness in the understanding of Creation, and we both reached the same conclusion via two different approaches, there would be no question that each formula was correct, just a different method of arriving at the same conclusion.

    I have come to this same conclusion as you and I believe Deb has as well. All we're doing, is demonstrating how we've discovered it in the basic bone structure of the written Logos, through which our dreams, visions, intuitions and insights (rhema) will add muscle and sinew. So...I think if we can keep discussing this with an open mind...we're already much farther ahead than most.
    Those are some great words Kathryn. And I very much agree that it would help to drop the "Chrsitian lingo" - that's what I had to do until I cleared away all the dross of false doctrines. Now I can use the old lanugage again because it has been cleansed and transfigured.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  9. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Those are some great words Kathryn. And I very much agree that it would help to drop the "Chrsitian lingo" - that's what I had to do until I cleared away all the dross of false doctrines. Now I can use the old lanugage again because it has been cleansed and transfigured.
    That's a great way to put it Richard. We can make the written word say anything we want it to say, if we don't approach it with the cleansed and transfigured (and proceeding word that is continuously speaking to us as the Word made Flesh...in and through all Creation.

    We can't however, make the Creator's first and intended witness to His/Her character and purposes, the Creation... say anything we want it to say! It has infinite diversity ...but it is from ONE Key in Harmony....LOVE UNCONDITIONAL, LOVE EXTRAVAGANT, MERCIFUL, BEAUTIFUL, GLORIOUS, FULL OF LAUGHTER AND JOY.

    This was the ONE command in which all other commands/Laws were summed up. Until we KNOW this fully, we will have no agreement or Harmony with our Core...and we will remain impotent and powerless to effect restoration on earth.

  10. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Hey there Deb,

    You are now setting Scripture against Scripture. The Book of Revelation explicitly states that the mere sexual act with a woman defiles a man:
    Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
    Now it matters not if the "women" in this passage are meant as "wicked women" or as symbols of unfaithfulness or whatever because any symbolic meaning is based upon the premise that "sex with women defiles men." We know this because the text contrasts male virginity (no sexual contact with any kind of women). Virtuous sex within marriage cannot be a possibility here because then they would not be called "virgins." .
    I would like to add my understanding of the passage raised by RAM of Revelation 14:4:
    The key word "defiled by womEn" suggests having sex with many women i.e. fornication. The other key word is virgin which can be interpreted as pure. Even married men (not just singles) can still be considered as virgins if they don't go sleeping around with women and are pure in their spirits. It has nothing suggesting women are "dirty" or men biased against women. Touching women does not defile a man, Jesus and His apostles were touching men and women curing them of their illnesses, raising the dead and casting out demons. Were they defiled also? And most of Jesus apostles were married!

    This is how Paul defines virgins as pure:

    2 Corinthians 11
    1 I hope you will put up with me in a little foolishness. Yes, please put up with me! 2 I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him. 3 But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent’s cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ.


    Fornicators:

    1 Corinthians 6:
    Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals,[a] nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.


    God Bless everyone.
    Last edited by CWH; 12-16-2011 at 03:49 AM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

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