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  1. #61
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    Question about Hagee

    Richard....I am still reeling from this latest devastating revelation unveiling John Hagee and his alledged heresy. Is there anyone in the media....any well known person/clergy...in christian circles that is taking Hagee to task on this latest bombshell? I have not seen anything about this in the news and this is certainly news worthy considering the media coverage Hagee receives. I know the forums are buzzing wildly with this but what about the churches, etc.? John MacArthur should, James Dobson, Tim Hegg, my mind has gone blank......where are the big guys????? Probably hiding.......

    I read one post that stated that most christians will swallow this....yes, there probably will be a number of them that will but we know that in the last days God is going to sift the wheat from the tares....this is one way to do that in a hurry............separates the goats from the sheep, too. I would love to be a fly on the wall in the halls of Cornerstone Church...I would imagine there is much abuzz there.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by sula View Post
    Richard....I am still reeling from this latest devastating revelation unveiling John Hagee and his alledged heresy. Is there anyone in the media....any well known person/clergy...in christian circles that is taking Hagee to task on this latest bombshell? I have not seen anything about this in the news and this is certainly news worthy considering the media coverage Hagee receives. I know the forums are buzzing wildly with this but what about the churches, etc.? John MacArthur should, James Dobson, Tim Hegg, my mind has gone blank......where are the big guys????? Probably hiding.......
    The silence is deafening! There are anticult ministries like The Bible Answer Man that have criticised Hagee for years because of his dual covenant stuff and prosperity teaching and other problems. But they haven't said anything that I know of yet. Of course, they may be waiting for Hagee to make a formal statement. The first peep I heard from him came out just three days ago over on the Expositor blog. Neither his website, nor the Cornerstone Church's site, nor the site devoted to his book have any indictation that there has been any controversy at all.
    Quote Originally Posted by sula View Post
    I read one post that stated that most christians will swallow this....yes, there probably will be a number of them that will but we know that in the last days God is going to sift the wheat from the tares....this is one way to do that in a hurry............separates the goats from the sheep, too. I would love to be a fly on the wall in the halls of Cornerstone Church...I would imagine there is much abuzz there.
    Yes, I'm afraid I must agree that most Christians will swallow it because if they had any fire in their spirits there's no way this could have happened in the first place. Hagee didn't just make up these ideas last year when he wrote his book. He's been preaching and teaching these errors for years to multiplied thousands of people in his church and over the Trinity Broadcasting Network, which means that ALL THE PEOPLE involved with the development and promotion of his book and tv shows an radio shows and preaching in his church (congregation of 19,000) are ALL DECEIVED to one degree or another!

    I know times are difficult. But don't let yourself be deceived about this. Times have always been difficult. Indeed, I thank God I live now with more freedom than any Christian in the history of the world! I own many Bibles and Bible software and I can proclaim God's Word in a way that reaches every country of the globe. If you think that the times are so bad now that we are close to the "great apostasy" you might want to remember what it was like when you could have been imprisoned or killed for simply speaking freely about God's Word as we are now. (If you were blessed enough to find a copy of one page of the Bible!)

    So yes, times look bad ... but are they really bad? You might want to re-evaluate your glass as half-full in this case.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  3. #63
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    Oh Richard, I feel that my cup runneth over but there are so many people...believers who do not have it nearly as well as I do. I am so blessed....not in worldly riches but heavenly blessings.

    I would have a very difficult time today telling the people of China that "things" are better......yes, there are more believers and that is wonderful....PTL, but that means that persecution is higher. I could not face the people in the Africas and tell them that life is grand and better than ever when they are having their arms and legs chopped off for refusing to praise allan. No, I do not believe that life is getting better; our freedoms are being taken away from us. God has been kicked out of schools, out of most public arenas, off the public displays in many buildings, schools are forbidding children to speak of "mom & dad", homosexuality is being thrust down our throats and politically correct speech is being shoved at us...enforced legally. I am not into the xmas thing but I do stand up for being able to say Christ-mas...no one is going to take that away from me. So, no, I do not believe "things are getting better". Israel is about to be blown off the face of the earth w/the exception of those that God spares......so...this is one area in which you and I are very far apart. I just don't see it Richard. And I have read some of what you believe....that everything is all past and that everything is going to get better and better....I just don't see it.....but...I am open to most discussions.

    One thing, I will say in defense of John Hagee, I simply have not heard alot of the erroneous teachings that many have spoken of. The few things that I have disagreed w/him on were not biggies.......but this one is....so I am not holding in rocks in my hands....I will not be guilty of running the stoning brigade.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by sula View Post
    Oh Richard, I feel that my cup runneth over but there are so many people...believers who do not have it nearly as well as I do. I am so blessed....not in worldly riches but heavenly blessings.
    I am glad you are blessed.
    Quote Originally Posted by sula View Post
    I would have a very difficult time today telling the people of China that "things" are better......yes, there are more believers and that is wonderful....PTL, but that means that persecution is higher. I could not face the people in the Africas and tell them that life is grand and better than ever when they are having their arms and legs chopped off for refusing to praise allan. No, I do not believe that life is getting better; our freedoms are being taken away from us. God has been kicked out of schools, out of most public arenas, off the public displays in many buildings, schools are forbidding children to speak of "mom & dad", homosexuality is being thrust down our throats and politically correct speech is being shoved at us...enforced legally. I am not into the xmas thing but I do stand up for being able to say Christ-mas...no one is going to take that away from me. So, no, I do not believe "things are getting better". Israel is about to be blown off the face of the earth w/the exception of those that God spares......so...this is one area in which you and I are very far apart. I just don't see it Richard. And I have read some of what you believe....that everything is all past and that everything is going to get better and better....I just don't see it.....but...I am open to most discussions.
    Your points are well taken sula. I never meant to suggest that things are great for everyone all over the planet! I am well aware of the persecution Christians suffer in China, the Phillipines, and in the Muslem countries.

    My point was triggered by your comments about the "last days" when you wrote that "we know that in the last days God is going to sift the wheat from the tares." I was only trying to give examples of why Hagee's errors do not seem like signs of the "last days."

    As for things "getting better and better" ... I don't recall ever saying anything like that. The first century fulfillment of the prophecies about Christ, the New Covenant, the destruction of Jerusalem, etc., just seems to be what the Bible teaches. It all makes sense to me. But it doesn't mean that things are going to get better and better. That's what a lot of folks thought back at the beginning of the 20th century, but they were quickly disabused of that error after two world wars and endless atrocities by cruel and murderous dictators. I do not live in a fantasy world. I very much recognize the ongoing reality of EVIL on planet Earth. Christ explained that this is how it would be in the parable of the wheat and the tares - the two would continue growing up together till He comes back. And what did He say the tares represented? Sons of the Devil!
    Quote Originally Posted by sula View Post
    One thing, I will say in defense of John Hagee, I simply have not heard alot of the erroneous teachings that many have spoken of. The few things that I have disagreed w/him on were not biggies.......but this one is....so I am not holding in rocks in my hands....I will not be guilty of running the stoning brigade.
    I hope you understand that I am not asking you to pick up stones! Some of us are just a lot more sensative to doctrinal errors than others. Many folks listening to Hagee overlook his errors and focus on the points they agree with because that's how most people get along with each other. No one wants to be too "nit picky" about doctinal stuff! That could lead immediately to charges of being a Pharisee, or worse, a Heresy Hunter! And when they hear something that really is heretical, they will ignore it by assuming "he couldn't really mean that" or "I must have misunderstood him, he's such a wonderful man of God" and then before they can form half a thought he shouts "Jesus is Lord, and He's coming back soon!" at the top of his lungs and obliterates that still small voice that would have led to a critical evaluation of his doctrine.

    I pray our God bless you evermore with His perfect Peace,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  5. #65
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    Last days

    Well, I still feel that we are on the same page for the most part. I would be interested in reading about your thoughts on your understanding of the last days. There are a number of issues I would enjoy discussing w/you.

    I think I told you...maybe I didn't, that we are retired living in beautiful central Mexico; have no church or congregation to share with....we are learning directly from the Lord. I begged for a teacher and HE let me know that HE wanted to be our teacher as I was begging HIM for the truth. HE has given us many wonderful truths.......many far from what either of us grew up with. He has revealed the beauty of the OT to us...most mainstream churches never taught from the OT...what a treasure trove. The God of the OT is awesome.

    So please share to your heart's content as the Lord leads you to share w/me. I am so hungry for fellowship even if ii is via the internet. And Praise God for the internet. I read everything I can get my hands on in the way of books and then rely on the net to research. I am a mere student but have found many wonderful sites to gain knowledge and blessings from. I have run across some pretty nasty vicious sites and people. So much hate and evil abound. But I am always looking for more. I can't even remember how I stumbled upon this one.

    God bless.......

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by sula View Post
    Well, I still feel that we are on the same page for the most part. I would be interested in reading about your thoughts on your understanding of the last days. There are a number of issues I would enjoy discussing w/you.
    Hey there sula,


    I have written a lot of posts in the Eschatology section of this forum concerning the "last days." My basic understanding is quite simple and derived directly from the Bible. It seems to me that every NT mention of "last days" or "last hour" or "last time" points pretty to the first century. For example, in Hebrews 1:2 we read that God "hath in these last days spoken unto us by His Son" and John said:
    1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
    And in the Olivet Discourse Christ specifically prophesied the destruction of the Temple which happened in the first century, exactly as He predicted when He said "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" (Matt 24:34). There are many other examples discussed in the Eschatology thread. If you want to pursue this topic, you could post a question there.
    Quote Originally Posted by sula View Post
    I think I told you...maybe I didn't, that we are retired living in beautiful central Mexico; have no church or congregation to share with....we are learning directly from the Lord. I begged for a teacher and HE let me know that HE wanted to be our teacher as I was begging HIM for the truth. HE has given us many wonderful truths.......many far from what either of us grew up with. He has revealed the beauty of the OT to us...most mainstream churches never taught from the OT...what a treasure trove. The God of the OT is awesome.
    I am with you 100% on the value of the OT! I see all 66 books as ONE. The OT is absolutely essential for a full understanding of the Gospel. I'm glad we agree on this point.
    Quote Originally Posted by sula View Post
    So please share to your heart's content as the Lord leads you to share w/me. I am so hungry for fellowship even if ii is via the internet. And Praise God for the internet. I read everything I can get my hands on in the way of books and then rely on the net to research. I am a mere student but have found many wonderful sites to gain knowledge and blessings from. I have run across some pretty nasty vicious sites and people. So much hate and evil abound. But I am always looking for more. I can't even remember how I stumbled upon this one.

    God bless.......
    I'm glad you found your way to this forum sula. I hope you can learn as well as teach here. We are all "mere students" dependent upon the light God gives us. We all are learning, so you will find us changing our minds, admitting we erred, eating humble pie and all that many times. This is not a place of competition but of collaboration in searching out the truths of God's Word. I look forward to your contribution.

    God bless!

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  7. #67
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    An email ...

    I received this email today:

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: [name withheld]
    To: Richard@biblewheel.com
    Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 10:38 AM
    Subject: In Defense of Israel

    Dear Richard,

    I too was somewhat confused by Pastor Hagee's comments concerning Christ as the Messiah. I decided to dig deep into this issue for better understanding. I'm glad that I did because my study brought clarity and the peace of understanding much needed.

    I believe I have found the reason for the confusion felt by many. We have used the name of Christ and Messiah throughout the Bible as one and the same and while Christ is the Messiah, He came the first time for a single purpose. The name "Messiah" is actually only used twice in the Bible according to Strong's Concordance. It is found in Daniel 9: 25 & 26 only. In these two verses it clearly refers to ' Messiah the Prince' not coming back until the Temple in Jerusalem is restored and the wall rebuilt in the end times. Daniel 10:14 makes it clear Daniel's vision is for the latter days.

    I think a better way for Pastor Hagee to have explained what he meant was to clarify that Christ the Messiah, did not come here the first time in His capacity as Messiah, but rather came the first time as Savior to the world, the Lamb of God, sacrificed for the sins of the world. He is yet to return as Messiah The Prince.

    This is a very serious subject and one that can divide Christians even more than they already are. I know all our questions can be answered in God's Word with clarity if we just study it and pray for guidance.

    I look forward to the day when our Lord Jesus Christ comes back in the capacity of Messiah to rule and reign in the world! That is when peace and justice will prevail.

    Sincerely,

    [name withheld]

    May you and your loved ones have a very Happy Thanksgiving!
    And here is my response:

    Dear [name withheld],

    Thank you for taking time to write and to explain your understanding of John Hagee's teachings.

    Unfortunately, your answer is terribly wrong. The word "Christ" literally means "Messiah." The two words mean exactly the same thing. When we say that Jesus is the Christ we are saying the Jesus is the Messiah. This is the fundamental definition of Christianity. That is why the Bible gives such a grave warning against all who would deny that Jesus is Messiah:

    1 John 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

    John Hagee denies that Jesus came to be the Messiah. The Bible explicitly condemns his teaching as antichrist.

    I am sorry to have to speak so bluntly, but there is no "nice way" to expose heresy and apostasy.

    I am open to further discussion if you feel it is necessary.

    I pray you remain in the Peace and Truth of Jesus the Messiah,

    Richard A. McGough
    www.BibleWheel.com
    The pathetically painful fact that Hagee's followers are ignorant of the elementary definition of "Christ" as "Messiah" should not be surprising because Hagee himself teaches that there is a difference. In his recent defense of his book posted over on the Expositor blog he began by giving an entirely unbiblical definition of Messiah:

    John Hagee: Many Christians have constructed a catch 22 concerning Jesus as Messiah. The catch 22 is this:

    'Jesus came to be Messiah but because the Jews rejected Him as Messiah He had to go to the cross, hence the Jews are the Christ Killers.'

    Fact: According to Websterís Dictionary the word 'Messiah' means 'the expected king who delivers from oppressors.' A Messiah is one who rules and reigns over a given people. ...

    Most people confuse the role of 'Messiah' and 'Savior.' To be Messiah you must live. To rule and reign you must live. Jesus came to die and be the Savior of every person on earth. ...

    Jesus Himself stated in Mark 14:8, Luke 24:46 and Mark 10:33-34 that He had come to die for the sins of the world as Savior. Again, you must live to be Messiah. You cannot be both Messiah and Savior!
    Hagee's argument is entirely nonsensical in the sense that it is truly moronic. How did Peter answer the Lord of the Universe when He asked "Who do you say that I am?" Peter answered:
    And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ [MESSIAH], the Son of the living God. (Matthew 16:16)

    And how did the Lord of the Universe respond to Peter's great confession?
    And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. (Matthew 16:17)

    But what does John Hagee think of the words of the Lord of the Universe? In his book he wrote:
    Jesus rejected to the last detail the role of Messiah in word or deed. (p. 145)

    And in his defense of his book he wrote:
    Fact: Jesus claimed to be Savior several times in the Bible. He never claimed to be Messiah to the Jewish people. In John 4 Jesus told the woman at the well, a Gentile, who He was, knowing the Jews and Samaritans had nothing to do with each other. I go into this in great detail in my latest book, 'In Defense of Israel.'
    What more need be said? Hagee has declared, defined, and defended his apostasy from the Christian faith.

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  8. #68
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    The conversation continues ...

    I received a response to the email I answered in the last post:

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: [name withheld]
    To: Richard Amiel McGough
    Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 1:41 PM
    Subject: Re: In Defense of Israel

    Thank you for responding to my email. I must say I think Pastor Hagee could have done a better job of explaining what he meant.

    He did not mean Christ is not the Messiah. He said Christ did not come the first time to be the Messiah. As my first email explained, there are only two times in the Bible where the title / name "Messiah" is written and means only the "Messiah." Therein lies the picture of the Messiah coming to the world to rule and reign. Pastor Hagee makes the distinction that Christ came the first time to be the Lamb of God, to be the Sacrificial Lamb for the sins of the world and that He will come again as the Messiah to the Jews and the world at His second coming.

    I never thought about it until all this came up. To me Christ is / was the Messiah and of course He is. However He had and has two roles to play. He fulfilled His first role when He first came to us. His second role as Messiah is yet to happen.

    In researching the title / name Messiah I realized for the first time that Christ has two roles, one our Savior and the other as Messiah. It may be a technical point but surely it is important to our Father. Christ is the Messiah but will not fill that role until He returns again. This is very clear to me now. And now it makes sense to me why Christ did not try to rule the world or be King of the Jews when He first came.

    Again I say, Pastor Hagee didn't explain it very well. Thus he has prompted people such as yourself to call him anitchrist. I'm sure Pastor Hagee would rather shoot himself than offend our Lord. That's the way I see it.

    The real antichrist in particular is Islam, in my opinion. They do not recognize Christ as the Son of God and the Savior to the world. Sadly in America, will may have to learn that truth to it's fullest extent.

    Have a wonderful and Happy Thanksgiving,

    [name withheld]
    And here is my response:

    Hi again [name withheld],

    I'm glad you followed up, since this issue is very important.


    Your insistence on the distinction between "Christ" and "Messiah" is absolutely false and unbiblical. As explained in my last email, the word "Christ" means "Messiah." The two words are interchangeable. They mean the same thing. There is no difference between "Christ" and "Messiah." Every Christian should know this because it is taught in the plain text of the Holy Word:
    John 1:41 He first found his own brother Simon, and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which is translated, the Christ).

    In your first email you wrote: "The name "Messiah" is actually only used twice in the Bible according to Strong's Concordance." That is not correct. You forgot to check the New Testament in which "Messiah" is listed as Strong's number 3323. And in both cases God ensures that there can be no mistake by translating the word "Messiah" as "Christ" in the very text of His Word:
    John 4:25-26 The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming" (who is called Christ). "When He comes, He will tell us all things." Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He."

    Do you see that? The text explains that Messiah is called Christ, and then Jesus Himself declared "I who speak to you am He." When John Hagee says that Jesus did not come to be Messiah, he directly contradicts the very word of the Lord Jesus Christ as well as the entire New Testament. Every reference to Jesus as "the Christ" could accurately and correctly be translated as "the Messiah" which is exactly how the Jewish Complete Bible does it throughout the New Testament. For example, here is how the Messianic JEWS translate 1 John 2:22:
    CJB 1 John 2:22 Who is a liar at all, if not the person who denies that Yeshua is the Messiah? Such a person is an anti-Messiah- he is denying the Father and the Son.
    Even non-Jewish translations sometimes translate "Christ" as "Messiah" to help the reader who might be ignorant of this basic fact.


    John Hagee teaches that Jesus Himself denied being the Messiah. This also is false. It directly contradicts the plain teaching of the Holy Word:
    Matthew 16:15-17 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? 16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ [MESSIAH], the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

    See that? Christ said that God the Father had revealed the He was Messiah (Christ). Some the translations use "Messiah" in Matthew 16:16 to help folks who don't understand the that "Christ" literally means "Messiah. A couple examples are the God's Word to the Nations version and the New Living Translation:
    GWN Matthew 16:16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God!"


    NLT Matthew 16:16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God."

    And if that's not enough, the Salkinson-Ginsburg edition of the Hebrew New Testament consistently translates the Greek "Christos" as the Hebrew "Meshiach" throughout from beginning to end! And if that's not enough, go visit your local Chirstian Bookstore and glance at the heading over Mark 8:26 in "The Complete Word Study New Testament" edited by Spiros Zodhiates which states (in bold print and large font):
    Peterís Declaration That Jesus Is the Messiah (Matt. 16:13-20; Luke 9:18-21)

    I could go on and on and on and on forever and ever! The proof is total and complete! There is no ambiguity whatsoever. God's Word declares it. All scholars confirm it. And Webster's dictionary defines it (in caps, no less!):
    Christ, noun

    [Middle English Crist, from Old English, from Latin Christus, from Greek Christos, literally, anointed, from chriein]

    (before 12th century)

    1 : MESSIAH

    2 : JESUS
    There are two statements that define the Christian faith: 1) JESUS is LORD, 2) JESUS is MESSIAH. That is why God's Word says that anyone who denies that Jesus is Messiah is antichrist. To say that Jesus didn't come to be Messiah in the first century contradicts everything declared in the New Testament from beginning to end. It is pure heresy. It is pure apostasy. It is entirely the spirit of antichrist.


    As for the idea that "Christ has two roles, one our Savior and the other as Messiah" --- That too is entirely false. When the angels announced the birth of Christ, they declared He was both Saviour and Chirst (Messiah). Here it is in three translations:
    KJV Luke 2:11 For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord


    NLT Luke 2:11 The Savior-- yes, the Messiah, the Lord-- has been born today in Bethlehem, the city of David!


    CJB Luke 2:11 This very day, in the town of David, there was born for you a Deliverer who is the Messiah, the Lord.
    I hope you understand that I am speaking very plainly because clarity on this issue is absolutely essential. We are talking about the fundamental declaration of Jesus as Messiah! John Hagee has publically denied Him. And now he has comfirmed his denial of Jesus as Messiah in a public statement defending his book. God have mercy on his soul that he may come to repentance!

    I pray you too have a wonderful and a blessed and a peaceful day of Thanksgiving unto God,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  9. #69
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    And the conversation continues still ...

    I received a third email from [name withheld]:

    ----- Original Message -----
    From: [name withheld]
    To: Richard Amiel McGough
    Sent: Tuesday, November 20, 2007 5:38 PM
    Subject: Re: In Defense of Israel


    Hi Richard,

    Well, this has become quite the debate hasn't it? But I love digging deeply into God's Word. It is so alive and real. It truly is the bread of life for me.

    I think we are disagreeing on something we really don't disagree on. As I said before, Christ is the Messiah, they are one in the same. But Daniel 9: 24-26 tell us Messiah the Prince will return to bring everlasting peace and righteousness in the latter days, Dan. 10:14. And that is what I believe Pastor Hagee was talking about. Christ came first to be the Savior and sacrifice for the sins of the world. He will come again to be Messiah The Prince. I just cannot agree with you that he was saying Christ is not the Messiah. I don't believe that. And yes I do believe Christ has/had two roles, one He already fulfilled paving the way for His role as the King of Kings and ruler of the entire world, which He did not do when He was here the first time.

    I guess we have to agree to disagree on this. Because I hold to the fact Christ is the Messiah and was from the beginning but that His role as leader and ruler of the world as Messiah is yet to happen as stated in Daniel. The Jews were looking for a King, a physical leader to take over the world and rule. They wanted to see a Messiah that was full of power and would defeat all the enemies of the Jews. Just as they wanted a physical king in the Old Testament, they again wanted the same. They couldn't accept that Christ riding on a lowly donkey was their King or Messiah. They were looking for a powerful ruler, that's what Messiah meant to them.
    And here is my response:

    Hello [name withheld],

    I'm glad you wrote back. Yes, this is a bit of a "debate" but debates are very good things because they can help us discern the truth of God's Word. They turn bad only when people start being abusive to each other, and I don't think that is going to happen between us. I am delighted to know that you love God's Word as do I.

    I agree that we may have to agree to disagree. But if so, it would be best if we could agree about the exact nature of the disagreement. There is still some confusion on that point. It appears that you have chosen to ignore the words that John Hagee has stated. That is your choice, but it is my duty to warn you as a brother in Christ that such behaviour will lead you away from the truth of God, and could shipwreck your faith and the faith of those you influence.

    So it is in the Spirit of God's Truth and in the Peace of God's Spirit that I present these facts for your consideration.

    I begin with your statement that "I just cannot agree with you that he was saying Christ is not the Messiah. I don't believe that."

    Then I must ask, Why do you refuse to believe Hagee's own words, and his defense of those words? In his book he repeatedly and explictly stated that Jesus "refused to be Messiah." Here are some quotes:

    • If God intended for Jesus to be the Messiah of Israel, why didn't he authorize Jesus to use supernatural signs to prove he was God's Messiah, just as Moses had done? (p. 137)
    • Jesus refused to produce a sign ... because it was not the Father's will, nor his, to be Messiah. (p 138)
    • If Jesus wanted to be Messiah, why did he repeatedly tell his disciples and followers to "tell no one" about his supernatural accomplishments? (p. 139)
    • The Jews were not rejecting Jesus as Messiah; it was Jesus who was refusing to be the Messiah to the Jews. (p. 140)
    • They wanted him to be their Messiah, but he flatly refused. (p. 141)
    • He refused to be their Messiah, choosing instead to be the Savior of the world (p. 143)
    • Jesus rejected to the last detail the role of Messiah in word or deed. (p. 145)

    Take a look at the first point. Hagee says Christ refused to use miraculous signs to prove He was Messiah. And in his recent defense of his book where he wrote the following (you can read his entire defense here):


    Fact: Jesus claimed to be Savior several times in the Bible. He never claimed to be Messiah to the Jewish people. In John 4 Jesus told the woman at the well, a Gentile, who He was, knowing the Jews and Samaritans had nothing to do with each other. I go into this in great detail in my latest book, “In Defense of Israel.”

    These statements directly contradict the plain teaching of God's Holy Word!
    John 10:24-25 Then THE JEWS surrounded Him and said to Him, "How long do You keep us in doubt? If You are the MESSIAH, tell us plainly." 25 Jesus answered them, "I TOLD YOU, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me.

    Here, let me simplify this for you:
    The Jews said "If you are the MESSIAH, tell us plainly!"
    Jesus answered "I TOLD YOU, but you do not believe!
    But John Hagee disagrees. He says "Jesus never claimed to be Messiah!" And Hagee contradicted the Holy Word again when he wrote on page 138 "Jesus refused to produce a sign ... because it was not the Father's will, nor his, to be Messiah." Hagees book is filled with errors from beginning to end! Look at the text we just cited (John 10). Jesus both claimed to be Messiah, and He appealed to His miraculous signs (works) as proof that He was Messiah when He said "The works that I do in My Father's name, they bear witness of Me."

    And if Jesus did not claim to be Messiah, why did the Jews accuse Him of that very thing?
    Luke 23:1-2 Then the whole multitude of them arose and led Him to Pilate. 2 And they began to accuse Him, saying, "We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to pay taxes to Caesar, saying that He Himself is MESSIAH, a King."
    Even the JEWS who denied that Jesus was the Messiah admit that He claimed to be Messiah! Hagee assertion that Jesus never claimed to be Messiah is as wrong as wrong can be! Why do you believe him?

    You also wrote: "They couldn't accept that Christ riding on a lowly donkey was their King or Messiah."


    That statemet is entirely false and unbiblical. There was a great multitude of Jews who received Him as their King Messiah that day. Forgive me for speaking plainly, but it seems as if you have never read the Bible. You beliefs seem to have been totally twisted by Hagee's false teachings. Just look at what the Bible really says!
    John 12:9-16 Now a GREAT MANY OF THE JEWS knew that He was there; and they came, not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might also see Lazarus, whom He had raised from the dead. 10 But the chief priests plotted to put Lazarus to death also, 11 because on account of him MANY OF THE JEWS WENT AWAY AND BELIEVED IN JESUS 12 The next day a GREAT MULTITUDE that had come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, 13 took branches of palm trees and went out to meet Him, and cried out: "Hosanna! 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!' The King of Israel!" 14 Then Jesus, when He had found a young donkey, sat on it; as it is written: 15 "Fear not, daughter of Zion; Behold, your King is coming, Sitting on a donkey's colt." 16 His disciples did not understand these things at first; but when Jesus was glorified, then they remembered that these things were written about Him and that they had done these things to Him.
    That GREAT MULTITUDE OF JEWS accepted Jesus as King Messiah.


    As a final point, you seem to be totally unaware of the fact that all the first Christians were JEWS and that they went forth by the power of God declaring that Jesus was Messiah to their fellow JEWS. That's what the New Testament declares! Jesus is the Messiah! John Hagee denies that Jesus ever said that. John Hagee denies the words of John the Apostle:
    John 20:30-31 And truly Jesus did many other signs in the presence of His disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His name.
    The Bible says "truly Jesus did many other signs" and that they were written so that you may believe that JESUS IS MESSIAH! But Hagee disagrees. Hagee says that "Jesus refused to produce a sign ... because it was not the Father's will, nor his, to be Messiah" (p. 138)

    I could go on and on and on and on. There really is no end to the grotesque errors of John Hagee. He contradicts the Bible at every turn. I really can't understand why this is not obvious to you. We are not talking about personal opinions or ambiguous verses. We are talking about direct contradictions to the plain meaning of the Holy Bible.

    Well, I guess there is nothing more I can do for you. I have opened the Bible and have proven Hagee's errors from a dozen different angles. It is up to you to choose to follow the truth. I can not do that for you. It is a task you must take up yourself.

    But if there is anything I can do to help, please do not hesitate to write.

    If you really want the truth, you can read the thread devoted to this issue on my forum where you will find dozens of other atrocious errors. Or just google "Hagee apostasy" and you will find a hundreds of other Christian witnesses who are raising their voices against the abomination of John Hagee's apostasy.


    I pray you remain in the Peace of Jesus the Messiah,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  10. #70
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    I guess we have to agree to disagree on this. Because I hold to the fact Christ is the Messiah and was from the beginning but that His role as leader and ruler of the world as Messiah is yet to happen as stated in Daniel. The Jews were looking for a King, a physical leader to take over the world and rule. They wanted to see a Messiah that was full of power and would defeat all the enemies of the Jews. Just as they wanted a physical king in the Old Testament, they again wanted the same. They couldn't accept that Christ riding on a lowly donkey was their King or Messiah. They were looking for a powerful ruler, that's what Messiah meant to them.
    The thought that came to mind as I was reading this was.....does it really matter what "some" of the Jews were looking for in a Messiah? Just because they wanted a Messiah that would be a physical leader at that time doesn't mean that Jesus wasn't their Messiah. So what if they couldn't accept Christ riding on a lowly donkey as their Messiah. Since when does what we want change God's plan!

    When these seeds of deception get planted in peoples minds, only harm can come from it. Woe to those that spread them.

    Rose
    Never trust anything you are afraid to question ~

    To know oneself is to know the universe...


    Live Fully...Love Extravagantly...For the sake of Goodness

    Be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. Matt.10:16

    Come let us reason together...Isa.1:18
    ********************************
    My new Blog site: God and Butterfly

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