Judas Iscariot

[Rose]

2by"s style of attack by throwing up a cloud of name calling and accusations is very common from those who refuse to look at what the Bible really says. All I have done is openly and honestly asked questions and set out to look for answers. Any good parent always encourages their children to ask questions...that is the fundamental path to knowledge which sadly is exemplified in a negative way in the biblical Garden Story.

Eve's desire was for wisdom is an innate quality in all humans, but the authors of the Bible chose to present this inherent desire for truth in a bad light...too bad, because the search for knowledge is what has gotten mankind to where we are today. A wise person asks questions. If one does not ask questions, but instead allows their minds to be shut down to truth that person is a poor soul indeed.

My doubts about the Bible being the word of God did not come from external forces, but rather from what I perceived with my own eyes contained in the Bible...things that I knew were there but did not have the courage to openly ask "why". Once I opened the door to questioning, then my own innate desire to seek the truth kicked in and off I went into to places unknown to me at the time. You could say I was just like Eve in the Garden Story, once I ate of the fruit of wisdom my eyes were opened and off I went on a path seeking knowledge...which is what I am still continuing to do!

Rose

[Richard Amiel McGough]

2by"s style of attack by throwing up a cloud of name calling and accusations is very common from those who refuse to look at what the Bible really says. All I have done is openly and honestly asked questions and set out to look for answers. Any good parent always encourages their children to ask questions...that is the fundamental path to knowledge which sadly is exemplified in a negative way in the biblical Garden Story.

Eve's desire was for wisdom is an innate quality in all humans, but the authors of the Bible chose to present this inherent desire for truth in a bad light...too bad, because the search for knowledge is what has gotten mankind to where we are today. A wise person asks questions. If one does not ask questions, but instead allows their minds to be shut down to truth that person is a poor soul indeed.

My doubts about the Bible being the word of God did not come from external forces, but rather from what I perceived with my own eyes contained in the Bible...things that I knew were there but did not have the courage to openly ask "why". Once I opened the door to questioning, then my own innate desire to seek the truth kicked in and off I went into to places unknown to me at the time. You could say I was just like Eve in the Garden Story, once I ate of the fruit of wisdom my eyes were opened and off I went on a path seeking knowledge...which is what I am still continuing to do!

Rose

Very well stated Rose!

It is sad to see folks like 2by''s close their minds to what the Bible really says even as they claim to believe it is the very "Word of God." Such an absurd level of irony! That form of Christianity is pure deception and delusion. It is a cult that puts chains of darkness on the minds of all who believe it. The zombies who are trapped in such darkness attack those with eyes to see by accusing them of being followers of Satan, the Accuser! Again, we see the ultimate irony of it all. The folks with their minds trapped in chains of darkness falsely accuse the Lovers of Truth as being followers of Satan. They accuse others of doing what they themselves do. How very sad. Folks like 2by''s have closed the only door to freedom when they closed their minds to truth, and falsely accuse those who speak the truth as if they were deceived by the devil.

[CWH]

Hello 2by"s

There is no need for all the derogatory remarks and innuendos implying some "weird demonic force" is hissing in my ears...it serves no purpose, but to make you look bad.

I have no reason to deny any of the words you quoted from me, for they were written from where I was at in trying to understand and grasp the supernatural design of the Bible Wheel, which I still believe is valid. I was not nearly as free then to look at the many problems I had with the Bible, but chose to put those aside and only focus on the amazing design springing from its pages.

My focus for the last two years has been to try and discover how the Bible Wheel could have come to be...that is what has led me on this journey of discovery ending up where I am at this time. I came to the point where I could no longer hide from the glaring problems that the Bible presented to me...all of its falsehoods, contradictions, biased and unjust treatment of women would no longer stay under the rug where I had swept them.

As soon as I allowed myself to freely seek the truth, and speak openly about what I found I felt the weight of denial fall away, and slowly my eyes were opened to see the truth. Now there is no turning back, wherever the truth leads me I will follow...and I know the answers will come.

All the Best,
Rose

I understand what 2by is trying to say. I blieve 2by has a good intention which he has went overboard in trying to refute Rose erroneous "atheist-like" thinking. Constant doubting the word of God will only lead one into atheism which I realized that's what RAM and Rose are heading to. To spread or encourage atheism is one of the most sinful thing to do which RAM and Rose may not realized what they are currently doing.

Matthew 18 : 6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!

Furthermore, they are making a mockery of the Bible Wheel; who would want to believe in the Bible Wheel invented by an atheist or an ex Christian. It's like trying to believe in a physic theory written by a non-physicist or an ex-physicist. It is no more credible. In fact, there are some who considered RAM and Rose as wolves in sheep clothings: This is one of the discussion which a member sent to me in a PM:

don't know that Ram & Rose are both Atheist. I see you have Rose numerous times if she was.
Wolves in sheep clothing looking for baby lambs....THERE CLOAK IS BEING PRETERIST .tHIS A VERY DARK FORUM MY FRIEND AND YOU MUST OF FIGURED THIS OUT BY NOW... THEY ARE BAD BOYS AND I SEE & JUDGE THEM BY THEIR ROTTEN FRUIT.... IT'S A TRAP MY FRIEND & I KNOW YOU CAN HANDLE IT.............OF COURSE RAM HAS ALREADY SHOT VENOM AT ME........THAT IS BECAUSE THEY HAVE SUCH BIG ATHEISTIC EGO'S

I have said in my post, if you want to challenge God, challenged Him in the positive light. I know some people are seeking the truth but on the other side, Satan can make searching for truth a trap to lead people away from the real truth and from Christ; he will try his best to even deceive the elect. That's why when we seek the truth, always seek God in good light and that will lead us to the light. I would rather that we debate on topics that will make our faith deeper towards God like "The fool says in his heart, there is no God". That's why I always challenged RAM and Rose atheist's or anti-God views to their dislikes and they accuse me of not understanding their point. As concerned Christians, I don't think we should encourage such anti-God or atheist views.

I always believe that whatever God did no matter how bad it seems to be, was for the best of us God's people. Remember, if you judge God, YOU will be judged. His ways are higher than ours and He knows what He was doing and He can forgive whoever He wants to forgive....who are we to question Him. Didn't Jesus said "what is that to you?":

John 21:20 Peter turned and saw that the disciple whom Jesus loved was following them. (This was the one who had leaned back against Jesus at the supper and had said, “Lord, who is going to betray you?”) 21 When Peter saw him, he asked, “Lord, what about him?”

Matthew 21: 22 Jesus answered, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you? You must follow me.” 23 Because of this, the rumor spread among the believers that this disciple would not die. But Jesus did not say that he would not die; he only said, “If I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you?”


Matthew 19: 25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”

Many Blessings.

[Rose]

I have said in my post, if you want to challenge God, challenged Him in the positive light. I know some people are seeking the truth but on the other side, Satan can make searching for truth a trap to lead people away from the real truth and from Christ; he will try his best to even deceive the elect. That's why when we seek the truth, always seek God in good light and that will lead us to the light. I would rather that we debate on topics that will make our faith deeper towards God like "The fool says in his heart, there is no God". That's why I always challenged RAM and Rose atheist's or anti-God views to their dislikes and they accuse me of not understanding their point. As concerned Christians, I don't think we should encourage such anti-God or atheist views.

I always believe that whatever God did no matter how bad it seems to be, was for the best of us God's people. Remember, if you judge God, YOU will be judged. His ways are higher than ours and He knows what He was doing and He can forgive whoever He wants to forgive....who are we to question Him. Didn't Jesus said "what is that to you?":


Many Blessings.

I have been challenging the Bible by what it says! Are we not suppose to ask questions, or just blindly accept anything that is written in a book man has labeled the word of God?

If the God of the Bible is really true, then why is his word so fulls of falsehoods, contradictions, moral abominations and inequality of women? It seems the creator of the universe could have written a book that was understandable to his creations...instead of a book that has caused nothing but dissension and squabbling amongst its followers.

Before one blindly follows all the words written in the Bible, one should test the validity of them, which is exactly what Richard and myself have been doing...that is called "SEEKING THE TRUTH".

All the Best,
Rose

[Richard Amiel McGough]

I understand what 2by is trying to say. I blieve 2by has a good intention which he has went overboard in trying to refute Rose erroneous "atheist-like" thinking. Constant doubting the word of God will only lead one into atheism which I realized that's what RAM and Rose are heading to. To spread or encourage atheism is one of the most sinful thing to do which RAM and Rose may not realized what they are currently doing.

Matthew 18 : 6 “If anyone causes one of these little ones—those who believe in me—to stumble, it would be better for them to have a large millstone hung around their neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea. 7 Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to stumble! Such things must come, but woe to the person through whom they come!

Oh ... so you want to talk about how SINFUL it is to harm "little ones" do ya? Well, OK then, let's talk! Here is what the "Chosen People" did under the direct command of the God of the Bible:

Deuteronomy 2:34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:

So the Bible plainly declares that both the "Chosen People" and the God of the Bible are the worst of sinners, and should have a millstone tied to their collective neck before they are thrown in the sea. Is this what you were trying to say?

Furthermore, they are making a mockery of the Bible Wheel; who would want to believe in the Bible Wheel invented by an atheist or an ex Christian. It's like trying to believe in a physic theory written by a non-physicist or an ex-physicist. It is no more credible.

First, I am not an atheist and have never said I was an atheist, so your constant name-calling and false innuendo is making you look like a morally and intellectually degenerate liar.

Second, the validity of the Bible Wheel (or anything) has nothing to do with the personal beliefs of the person who presents it. You have committed the Genetic Fallacy. And worse, the witness of the Bible Wheel would be even stronger if a non-Christian argued that it was evidence of "something supernatural" going on in the Bible, because that would be testimony from a hostile witness which is always stronger than testimony by someone who wants the Bible to be true. So as usual, your arguments are logically fallacious - that is, WRONG. But you don't about truth, do you? I mean, you are a "Christian" so you say whatever it takes to make yourself "look" right, TRUTH BE DAMNED! That's you logic, isn't it? Be honest now. You have never shown any interest in the Bible Wheel. You are just using it to attack a perceived enemy. That looks like moral corruption to me. If you and 2by''s are witnesses of what Christianity does to a person's heart and mind, then let everyone be warned!

Now consider the irony here. Even now as a non-Christian, I have repeatedly stated that the Bible Wheel remains the one of the strongest pieces of evidence for the idea that there is something supernatural going on in the Bible. This is in contrast to the mindless moronism of the vast majority of Christian "apologists" who have prostituted their minds in service of blatantly false and utterly indefensible doctrines such as the doctrine that the Bible is the "inerrant and infallible Word of God."

In fact, there are some who considered RAM and Rose as wolves in sheep clothings:

Dude! Don't you understand anything? Rose and I can't be wolves in sheep's clothing if we aren't wearing sheep's clothing! The "sheep's clothing" means "acting like Christians" to hide the fact that we are really "wolves" underneath. But neither Rose nor I are pretending to be anything other than what we are. We are not pretending to be "sheep." You are the "sheep." We are the "thinkers." Your use of this metaphor is absurd in the extreme. Don't you ever think before you write?

This is one of the discussion which a member sent to me in a PM:

don't know that Ram & Rose are both Atheist. I see you have Rose numerous times if she was.
Wolves in sheep clothing looking for baby lambs....THERE CLOAK IS BEING PRETERIST .tHIS A VERY DARK FORUM MY FRIEND AND YOU MUST OF FIGURED THIS OUT BY NOW... THEY ARE BAD BOYS AND I SEE & JUDGE THEM BY THEIR ROTTEN FRUIT.... IT'S A TRAP MY FRIEND & I KNOW YOU CAN HANDLE IT.............OF COURSE RAM HAS ALREADY SHOT VENOM AT ME........THAT IS BECAUSE THEY HAVE SUCH BIG ATHEISTIC EGO'S

Thanks for posting that! It's nice to see what's flowing in the sewers underneath this forum once in a while. It shows the utter corruption that takes over the minds of folks for whom Christianity is nothing but a mindless cult of brainwashed zombies. False accusations fly freely from the wicked tongues of those with corrupt minds. Neither Rose nor I have ever said we are atheist, and that's because neither of us are atheists. And just look at the raving madness of that message. Not a single word of truth in it! Not a single fact proving any of the accusations. Just pure hissing venom. And look at the irony. I did not shoot venom at anyone here, I always back up what I say with logic and facts. It is the people like your friend who have made Christianity into a mindless cult that make false accusations without any evidence. Of courses that person thought I had a "BIG ATHEIST EGO" - that's because I exposed and obliterated their false assertions and mindless crap they posted here on the forum.

I have said in my post, if you want to challenge God, challenged Him in the positive light. I know some people are seeking the truth but on the other side, Satan can make searching for truth a trap to lead people away from the real truth and from Christ; he will try his best to even deceive the elect. That's why when we seek the truth, always seek God in good light and that will lead us to the light. I would rather that we debate on topics that will make our faith deeper towards God like "The fool says in his heart, there is no God". That's why I always challenged RAM and Rose atheist's or anti-God views to their dislikes and they accuse me of not understanding their point. As concerned Christians, I don't think we should encourage such anti-God or atheist views.

I have explained over and over again that we are not challenging "God" - we are challenging the interpretation of the Bible, and giving strong reasons why it is wrong to think it is the "inerrant and infallible Word of God." But you appear to have some sort of disability because it doesn't matter how many times we explain this to you, you still do not understand it.

And again, we are not atheists and we are not encouraging "anti-God or atheist views." We are encouraging people to think about what is really in the Bible, but that's the one thing that fundamentalists Christians like you cannot do! It is the ultimate irony. The folks who are least likely to admit what the Bible really says are those who claim to believe it is the very "Word of God."

I always believe that whatever God did no matter how bad it seems to be, was for the best of us God's people. Remember, if you judge God, YOU will be judged. His ways are higher than ours and He knows what He was doing and He can forgive whoever He wants to forgive....who are we to question Him. Didn't Jesus said "what is that to you?":

Again, we are not questioning "God" - we are questioning what the Bible says about God. How many times have we explained this to you? Why can't you understand such simple language?

You say that you "always believe that whatever God did no matter how bad it seems to be, was for the best of us God's people." Great! Believe whatever you want. Just don't accuse me of atheism if I expose the absurdity of your beliefs. Have you tried to really believe what you claim to believe? Here, let me help you. Imagine that you were a Hebrew soldier ordered to kill every man, woman, and child in one of towns in the "Promised Land." So you go forth and rip open a tent to find a 17 year old mother with her two children. Ones feeding at her breast, the other is a three year old little girl playing with a doll. The woman begins to scream, begging for mercy! Please don't kill my babies! You glare at her as you swing your sword, slicing the toddler's body in half so that the blood, guts, and shit splatters on the mother's face as she continues to beg you to STOP PLEASE HAVE MERCY! But you have no mercy. You are obeying the commands of your war-god to kill every man woman and child. And so you slice the mother and her baby into pieces, and move on to the next tent, and then next, and the next, until you have killed hundreds of women and their little babies. Do you have any idea how this would BRUTALIZE the hearts and minds of the Hebrews? There is NOTHING good about any of this. There is no "god" who could command this for the "good" of his people. It would DESTROY any soul that had to do this just once, let alone day after day in "every city" of the "Promised Land."

This is the problem with your "theology" - you just say whatever sounds good without really thinking about what any of the words really mean. You cannot justify genocide by saying it was "good" for some mysterious and unknown reasons. It is not good. It is evil. It was evil when it happen. And that is a fact that will never change.

How is it that Christians are the only ones with no moral conscience?

[Brother Les]

Interesting thread..... that I wish that I had never read....

[Rose]

Interesting thread..... that I wish that I had never read....

Too bad you feel that way....

Rose

[Kangaroo Jack]

Cheow said:

To spread or encourage atheism is one of the most sinful thing to do which RAM and Rose may not realized what they are currently doing.

Cheow,

RAM and Rose are not teachable at all. Rose is not capable of thinking objectively and RAM listens to her too much. I gave Rose strong biblical evidence that the new covenant God has abolished the distinctions between male and female and Rose was not impressed at all. She couldn't even say, "Hmmm.... I will think about it and get back to you." Instead she just gripes that the new testament scripture was written by men. This is ad hominen and conclusively proves that she cannot be objective. She just has an ax to grind and objective people can see it instantly.

People who incessantly grind an ax and dismiss contrary evidence do not gain much of a hearing.

KJ

[Rose]

Cheow said:
Cheow,

RAM and Rose are not teachable at all. Rose is not capable of thinking objectively and RAM listens to her too much. I gave Rose strong biblical evidence that the new covenant God has abolished the distinctions between male and female and Rose was not impressed at all. She couldn't even say, "Hmmm.... I will think about it and get back to you." Instead she just gripes that the new testament scripture was written by men. This is ad hominen and conclusively proves that she cannot be objective. She just has an ax to grind and objective people can see it instantly.

People who incessantly grind an ax and dismiss contrary evidence do not gain much of a hearing.

KJ

I think Richard would strongly object to your implications that he doesn't think for himself and lets me influence him.

I have never denied that under the New Covenant the distinction between male and female is stated to be done away with, however that does not change the fact that the Old Covenant is totally embraced as being the word of God by Christians. The character of God is established in the Old Testament along with the many atrocities and abominations attributed to him. So my point is that because of the bias and inequality of women that is abundantly evident in the Old Testament, my claim that the Bible was written by men remains valid, no matter what is changed under the New Covenant...even though Paul and the other Apostles under the New Covenant still continued to treat woman unequally.

And as for your accusations of ad hominen, I think you had better look up the definition, or find one of my posts where I attacked anyone's character. You have been the one flinging accusations at me and attacking my character, all I have done is try and present evidence showing the Bible was written by men.

Rose

[Kangaroo Jack]

Rose wrote:

think Richard would strongly object to your implications that he doesn't think for himself and lets me influence him.

Then let Richard speak for himself and let him NOT openly support you when you commit your ad hominen fallacies. You find fault with the fact that men wrote the new testament. To dismiss what they say because they were men is the ad hominen fallacy. Richard should say to you at the dinner table, "Honey, you're not really helping our argument with your ad hominens." Instead he openly says that you are speaking the truth making himself look biased IMO.

...however that does not change the fact that the Old Covenant is totally embraced as being the word of God by Christians.

You commit the fallacy of generalization. It has already been pointed out by me that God found fault with that covenant and has done away with it. Many Christians share my view.

The character of God is established in the Old Testament along with the many atrocities and abominations attributed to him.

They would be atrocities and abominations ONLY if humankind was not His personal property.

And as for your accusations of ad hominen, I think you had better look up the definition, or find one of my posts where I attacked anyone's character.

No! You look up the definition of ad hominen.

Argumentum ad hominem is the logical fallacy of attempting to undermine a speaker's argument by attacking the speaker instead of addressing the argument.

http://plover.net/~bonds/adhominem.html

You attack the scripture because it was written by men. This is clearly ad hominen. Now you have committed the fallacy of generalization. I expect that the list fallacies will just keep growing.

KJ