Judas Iscariot

**Richard Amiel McGough** · 06-06-2011, 04:25 PM

Originally Posted by joel

It's nice to be chatting with you again, Kathryn.......hope all is going well with you.

It's also good to hear you say what you have said.......I see it as a transfer of righteousness, which only exists in God, to a person who believes in what He says.

a person is "imputed" righteousness based on faith in His Word........

that was Abraham's example.........

Blessings to you,

Joel

OK - I think I see what you are getting at. It's like there is a property called "gorgledinkeness" and the Gospel teaches that God's gorgledinkeness is transferred through faith. That's great. But I don't think anyone will really know what you mean until you define "gorgledinkeness."

**kathryn** · 06-06-2011, 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by joel

It's nice to be chatting with you again, Kathryn.......hope all is going well with you.

It's also good to hear you say what you have said.......I see it as a transfer of righteousness, which only exists in God, to a person who believes in what He says.

a person is "imputed" righteousness based on faith in His Word........

that was Abraham's example.........

Blessings to you,

Joel

Thanks Joel! Hope all is well with you too!
Yes...certainly a person is imputed righteousness by faith...but it goes deeper too.
There is a big problem with many Christian's thinking in this area. We have believed that our righteousness is as "filthy rags" because we were born in sin....rather than we sin because we are mortal. This misunderstanding causes so much confusion around the subject of righteousness when we believe we are inherently "rotten" to the core...or born in sin. I didn't fully understand this until just this year. This doctrine never rang true with me, but for some reason, I ingested it at some level. I was finally able to identify it, when I noticed my confusion in this area of righteousness.
Our righteousness is as filthy rags because we are still "touching a dead body"(a mortal one). Christ(plural), the first fruits will sanctify the rest of the crop or harvest, BECAUSE they will have been purified by the Baptism of Fire, and BE Righteous through and through. That's the whole purpose of the "first fruits". The Father will not share His Throne with one whiff of the carnal left. It's absolute purity or nothing. This happens when we are presented to the Father in our purified, immortal bodies...not before. I know this is still a huge area of confusion too, but it is because few believe the Law of Moses is still applicable to us. This is so ironic, when it was Jesus, who AFTER the resurrection, revealed Himself in it, and OPENED the eyes of His disciples. This was AFTER He fulfilled it and said "it is finished".
This(the purification) will be the fulfillment of the Pentecostal offering...two loaves of leavened bread baked in the oven/fire, to stop the work of the leaven in the bread..or the condition of iniquity is removed from our "midst". In the meantime, we are still the ass or donkey..not bad, just "unclean". We either choose to be redeemed by the Lamb, or have our neck broken.
We were made in His image and likeness, with His in-built sense of justice and all that is "right". Scripture says that we must become like a child to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. A child who is parented with love has no reason to ever NOT have faith in their parents and take on their values. Its only been our carnal mind eating from the wrong "tree" that's been the problem and has seriously disabled the child. From some of the posts on the forum, it would seem the child has become a monster in its faulty perception of the Father. It's very sad!
Blessings Joel...

**Rose** · 06-06-2011, 06:26 PM

Originally Posted by kathryn

Thanks Joel! Hope all is well with you too!
Yes...certainly a person is imputed righteousness by faith...but it goes deeper too.
There is a big problem with many Christian's thinking in this area. We have believed that our righteousness is as "filthy rags" because we were born in sin....rather than we sin because we are mortal. This misunderstanding causes so much confusion around the subject of righteousness when we believe we are inherently "rotten" to the core...or born in sin. I didn't fully understand this until just this year. This doctrine never rang true with me, but for some reason, I ingested it at some level. I was finally able to identify it, when I noticed my confusion in this area of righteousness.
Our righteousness is as filthy rags because we are still "touching a dead body"(a mortal one). Christ(plural), the first fruits will sanctify the rest of the crop or harvest, BECAUSE they will have been purified by the Baptism of Fire, and BE Righteous through and through. That's the whole purpose of the "first fruits". The Father will not share His Throne with one whiff of the carnal left. It's absolute purity or nothing. This happens when we are presented to the Father in our purified, immortal bodies...not before. I know this is still a huge area of confusion too, but it is because few believe the Law of Moses is still applicable to us. This is so ironic, when it was Jesus, who AFTER the resurrection, revealed Himself in it, and OPENED the eyes of His disciples. This was AFTER He fulfilled it and said "it is finished".
This(the purification) will be the fulfillment of the Pentecostal offering...two loaves of leavened bread baked in the oven/fire, to stop the work of the leaven in the bread..or the condition of iniquity is removed from our "midst". In the meantime, we are still the ass or donkey..not bad, just "unclean". We either choose to be redeemed by the Lamb, or have our neck broken.
We were made in His image and likeness, with His in-built sense of justice and all that is "right". Scripture says that we must become like a child to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. A child who is parented with love has no reason to ever NOT have faith in their parents and take on their values. Its only been our carnal mind eating from the wrong "tree" that's been the problem and has seriously disabled the child. From some of the posts on the forum, it would seem the child has become a monster in its faulty perception of the Father. It's very sad!
Blessings Joel...

Hey Kathyrn, I hope I'm wrong, but I can't help but feel your closing statement is directed at Richard and I, implying that we have a faulty perception of the God portrayed in the Bible. If that is the case then you are the one who it's very sad for.

Richard and I have been open and honest in our search for truth, and everything we have said concerning God is clearly written in the Bible. We have asked over and over again for feedback on what we have presented, but all we have gotten so far is "flack" instead of reasons why we are in error.

If you, or anyone else reading this post can find a reason why we should believe the Bible is actually the word of God, I would be most appreciative if you would present your reasons.

All the Best,
Rose

**kathryn** · 06-06-2011, 07:02 PM

Rose....I have honoured both you and Richard all along for your courage to pursue the truth. I not only respect it, it has greatly helped me. I don't support things I don't fully believe in. If you feel any condemnation from my last post...you haven't heard my heart over the past few months, and I have probably not articulated things properly.
I was referring to those who are trying to justify a God who doesn't witness with what is deep in our hearts as the "child". Neither you or Richard have ever done that, and I thought I had encouraged you in this.

PS..the monster is the carnal mind that would think God would condone rape and murder, because a culture was a certain way...and then change His mind as we developed a sense of justice. (etc) I have written many posts in this vein Rose. My whole focus has been on the renewing of the carnal mind that twists God's goodness.

**kathryn** · 06-06-2011, 07:23 PM

Rose...If you read my posts on the thread "the purpose of the Bible Wheel" you'll see that not only do I believe the written bible is a type of man in his "unleavened state", inspired of God...but full of corruption...I couldn't believe otherwise if I tried, because the scriptures I've presented appear to prove it.

**Rose** · 06-06-2011, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by kathryn

Rose....I have honoured both you and Richard all along for your courage to pursue the truth. I not only respect it, it has greatly helped me. I don't support things I don't fully believe in. If you feel any condemnation from my last post...you haven't heard my heart over the past few months, and I have probably not articulated things properly.
I was referring to those who are trying to justify a God who doesn't witness with what is deep in our hearts as the "child". Neither you or Richard have ever done that, and I thought I had encouraged you in this.

PS..the monster is the carnal mind that would think God would condone rape and murder, because a culture was a certain way...and then change His mind as we developed a sense of justice. (etc) I have written many posts in this vein Rose. My whole focus has been on the renewing of the carnal mind that twists God's goodness.

Hi Kathyrn

The statement in your last post caught me by surprise, because you have been so supportive of Richard and myself - that is why I said I hoped that I was wrong - and I'm sure glad I was wrong...

I'm sorry I misunderstood you, I guess I'm getting a little touchy since Richard and I are getting so much negative feedback, but please do continue to give your input...I do appreciate it.

All the Best,
Rose

**joel** · 06-06-2011, 08:24 PM

We are moving towards a mindset......one which is of the spirit.....and not of the flesh.

Kathryn, you and I both love Richard and Rose. They have provided a forum in which we may express our thoughts without censure. And, they have been faithful in expressing their negative feelings that are essential in this divine process.

This mindset, as described by Paul, is the "phronema pneuma" of Romans 8.

It is no longer "I", but "we", and "us". It is the essence of the mind of Christ.

They....who are led by the spirit of God.....are the sons of God. (Romans 8:14).

Joel

**kathryn** · 06-06-2011, 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by Rose

Hi Kathyrn

The statement in your last post caught me by surprise, because you have been so supportive of Richard and myself - that is why I said I hoped that I was wrong - and I'm sure glad I was wrong...

I'm sorry I misunderstood you, I guess I'm getting a little touchy since Richard and I are getting so much negative feedback, but please do continue to give your input...I do appreciate it.

All the Best,
Rose

Hi Rose...I can see how you'd be especially tender, with some of the responses lately. I hope this will make people realize how it affects you. (and by Spirit, the whole Body)
Although, people who go for the jugular aren't really interested in the pursuit of truth are they? They think they're "on fiire for God"...when in fact, they're lukewarm and just want to argue. If they truly had a heart to know Him, they would first have spent some quality time in knowing themselves, which would then translate into understanding and compassion for where you're coming from.
It is so ironic to me, that you've put your time, money, effort and life passion into the Bible Wheel and the forum, and they think you are trying to cast aspersions on God's Character! Can't they see how terribly contradictory that is?!
Rose, I treasure both you and Richard and this site. There is only one thing that I will ever pass judgement on as a negative...If you lose your integrity or hunger in searching for truth. This is the only forum I participate on, because I know that both of those qualities are solidly in place. This road is too important to me, to want to settle for anything else at this stage in life. Because they're in place, I also know I can say what is in my heart and know that , while it may be held to rigorous standard, it will never be ridiculed. (at least by you).
Kath xo

**kathryn** · 06-06-2011, 08:59 PM

Originally Posted by joel

We are moving towards a mindset......one which is of the spirit.....and not of the flesh.

Kathryn, you and I both love Richard and Rose. They have provided a forum in which we may express our thoughts without censure. And, they have been faithful in expressing their negative feelings that are essential in this divine process.

This mindset, as described by Paul, is the "phronema pneuma" of Romans 8.

It is no longer "I", but "we", and "us". It is the essence of the mind of Christ.

They....who are led by the spirit of God.....are the sons of God. (Romans 8:14).

Joel

Yes Joel...thank you. As I've said before, if we truly knew how intimately connected we were, we'd realize that we truly are gnawing off our own foot, when we descend into the flesh, in enmity. If one of us comes into revelation of the Truth, however small and whether it is immediately apparent, we've brought the whole Body closer to healing and Light. If we truly understood this, we'd nurture each other's pursuit of it!

**Richard Amiel McGough** · 06-06-2011, 09:12 PM

Originally Posted by joel

We are moving towards a mindset......one which is of the spirit.....and not of the flesh.

Kathryn, you and I both love Richard and Rose. They have provided a forum in which we may express our thoughts without censure. And, they have been faithful in expressing their negative feelings that are essential in this divine process.

This mindset, as described by Paul, is the "phronema pneuma" of Romans 8.

It is no longer "I", but "we", and "us". It is the essence of the mind of Christ.

They....who are led by the spirit of God.....are the sons of God. (Romans 8:14).

Joel

Hey Joel,

That's a wonderful post. I really appreciate your thoughtful comments. Thanks!

Richard