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Thread: Judas Iscariot

  1. #1
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    Judas Iscariot

    Those opposed to the Bible like to point out how Judas died twice! That isn't true, of course, but Matt27:5 does say that "Judas went out and hanged himself", and in Acts 1:18 it's written that Judas "purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out".. We agree the two statements are seemingly conflicting, but can you not imagine a scenario which fits both?

    He goes out to his field and finds a tree and hangs himself. Nobody cuts down the body and it continues to swing and sway and be bloated with gas until the day it falls headlong to the earth and explodes. Sooo, both sentences are reconciled, but the atheists and agnostics don't want to hear it.

    There are those who think it was a mistake to replace Judas with Matthias, but I don't find fault with the Great Author, and have decided any "mistakes" are probably caused by my own thinking.
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post
    Those opposed to the Bible like to point out how Judas died twice! That isn't true, of course, but Matt27:5 does say that "Judas went out and hanged himself", and in Acts 1:18 it's written that Judas "purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out".. We agree the two statements are seemingly conflicting, but can you not imagine a scenario which fits both?

    He goes out to his field and finds a tree and hangs himself. Nobody cuts down the body and it continues to swing and sway and be bloated with gas until the day it falls headlong to the earth and explodes. Sooo, both sentences are reconciled, but the atheists and agnostics don't want to hear it.

    There are those who think it was a mistake to replace Judas with Matthias, but I don't find fault with the Great Author, and have decided any "mistakes" are probably caused by my own thinking.
    I'm glad you brought this up. I find it fascinating to see how folks deal with real or apparent contradictions in Scripture.

    I think most folks who have been bothered by this question are Christians. Sure, the skeptics point to it as an obvious contradiction, but thoughtful believing Christians are usually quite disturbed by it when they first encounter it too.

    Now your attempted solution is just that - an attempt to "fix" the Bible by adding ideas that are not actually stated in the text. You don't know things happened the way you say, and worse, the fact that you have to make up a story to fix the Bible proves that the Bible is in itself insufficient as our "only guide." It has lots of "holes" that need to be filled in with speculation. So even if your explanation were correct, the fact you need such an explanation proves that the Bible is far from perfect or complete. And you must answer this big question: Why did God want the Bible to look like it has contradictions and errors?

    And more importantly, the solution you suggest does not seem to work. Why did Judas hang himself? Because he was remorseful for his role in the death of Christ:
    Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, 4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. 5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself. 6 And the chief priests took the silver pieces, and said, It is not lawful for to put them into the treasury, because it is the price of blood. 7 And they took counsel, and bought with them the potter's field, to bury strangers in. 8 Wherefore that field was called, The field of blood, unto this day. 9 Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued, whom they of the children of Israel did value; 10 And gave them for the potter's field, as the Lord appointed me.
    So in Matthew, we see that Judas repented and threw the money back to the priests who had given it to him. He wanted nothing to do with the money, and he felt so guilty that he hanged himself.

    Now let's look at what Luke said in Acts concerning this "same" event:
    Acts 1:16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus. 17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry. 18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out. 19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
    Who purchased the field? Luke says Judas and Matthew says the priests. This is a flat out contradiction. So now you need to invent another speculation to "harmonize" these two stories. Most folks claim that we can say Judas bought the field because the priests used his money when they bought the field. Fine. But note, that's not what the text says, and so you are adding to Scripture if you choose to tell that tale.

    But there are other much larger problems. First, you now have to assume that Judas went and hung himself NOT in the field that he himself bought (as Acts states), but in the field that the priests bought. Isn't that a little odd? Are we supposed to believe that Judas, wracked with grief and guilt, somehow found out that the priests had bought a field with his money (how would he know that) and that the field "just happened" to have a tree from which he could hang himself? That's a lot of "logic" and "forethought" for a man caught in the throes of suicidal guilt.

    And there's yet another problem based of the order of events implied in Matthew. The text says that Judas repented, threw the many to the priests, and then "departed and hung himself." It is only then, after Judas hung himself, that the priests bought the field. So now we have to invent yet another weird scenario in which the priests go and purchase the field where Judas is hanging. But they couldn't do that, because the priests could not by land that was defiled with a dead body hanging from a tree! But even if they did purchase the defiled field, the order of events in Matthew and Acts are incompatible.

    And now we come to the greatest contradiction of all. Matthew tells us that Judas was REPENTANT whereas Acts says that he "bought the field with the "reward of iniquity" - giving no indication whatsoever that he was repentant. The fact that his guts spilled out on the very field he bought with the reward of iniquity is a classic expression of "divine retribution" upon an unrepentant sinner common in the ancient near east and the Bible.

    Thus, Matthew and Acts are fundamentally contradictory on these following points:

    1) Who bought the field?
    2) When was the field bought? Before or after Judas died?
    3) Did Judas repent?

    You assertion that only "skeptics" and folks who don't "want to believe the Bible" have problems with the contradictions in the Bible is obviously false. The problems are really there, and they cannot be simply dismissed by anyone who claims to love the truth.

    Great chatting!
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  3. #3
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    Hey duxrow,

    I'm really glad you brought this up. It exemplifies the fundamental error of your belief that there is no "fault with the Great Author" but rather, all the "faults" in the Bible are due to your own faulty thinking.

    Here is the problem. You have been taught that whenever there are two or more apparently contradictory statements, all you need to do is INVENT a possible scenario that "harmonizes" the contradictions, and then "all is well." I'm sorry, but this is a fundamental error because anyone can "harmonize" any two contradictory statements if they are free to make up stuff!

    I mean, you could just as well say that Space Aliens beamed up his body while hanging on the tree and then dropped it from 20,000 feet in the sky so that it went "splat" and his guts spilled out on the field. Do you really think that making up stuff to "fix" the obviously incoherent Bible is really going to convince anyone who is seriously interested in the truth? Would you stake your life on speculations and "just so" stories made up to fix an obviously contradictory text that folks claim is the very "Word" of the Almighty Omniscient God? Think about it. Stories like you suggest make a mockery of the doctrine that the "Great Author" has produced a "perfect book."
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  4. #4
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    Yea, really, but am NOT making any assertions -- mostly just generalities, and glad to see you've spent some time on this [dilemma?].. it wasn't original with me, but makes sense, IMO. "And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book" John 20:30, also end of chapt. 21.
    So I don't believe the Bible is telling us the WHOLE truth... leaving a few things for us to learn (Rom15:4) for ourselves. Else why the "mystery" used so often?
    Liked your answer, Rich, but am still of the same opinion: like you, for sure!
    Dux allows: "It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out the matter". Pr25:2

  5. #5
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    Actually, there are no contradictions with Judas when you study this out in type and shadow, beginning with the Law of Moses. The hanging or "beheading" is one of the primary themes in scripture.
    Regardless of the imperfection of God's word coming through man, the divine dna is in every jot and tittle. As 2by's mentioned in another post...we simply need to learn to "rightly divide" the word of God. This is a process, and developes in the refining.
    I'm looking forward to exploring this with everyone on the weekend.

  6. #6
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    Richard...there is something I would like you to consider. I believe the Bible Wheel is a literal multidimensional model of the purified word...or "the word made flesh". However....there is another element that I believe is added to the "rolling" process you have submitted the 66 books of the bible to, and that is the Et Kol, which is then put in motion to "rightly divide it".

    http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/CapstoneSignature.asp

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathryn View Post
    Richard...there is something I would like you to consider. I believe the Bible Wheel is a literal multidimensional model of the purified word...or "the word made flesh". However....there is another element that I believe is added to the "rolling" process you have submitted the 66 books of the bible to, and that is the Et Kol, which is then put in motion to "rightly divide it".

    http://www.biblewheel.com/Wheel/CapstoneSignature.asp
    That's all very good - fascinating in fact. I will meditate up in. But did you intend it to apply to our discussion about the death of Judas? If so, how?

    Edit: Sorry, I had missed you previous response. I understand how you meant this to apply now.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathryn View Post
    Actually, there are no contradictions with Judas when you study this out in type and shadow, beginning with the Law of Moses. The hanging or "beheading" is one of the primary themes in scripture.
    Regardless of the imperfection of God's word coming through man, the divine dna is in every jot and tittle. As 2by's mentioned in another post...we simply need to learn to "rightly divide" the word of God. This is a process, and developes in the refining.
    I'm looking forward to exploring this with everyone on the weekend.
    Great! I look forward to discussing it with you. I am very curious how you understand the idea of "contradiction."
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by duxrow View Post
    Yea, really, but am NOT making any assertions -- mostly just generalities, and glad to see you've spent some time on this [dilemma?].. it wasn't original with me, but makes sense, IMO. "And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book" John 20:30, also end of chapt. 21.
    So I don't believe the Bible is telling us the WHOLE truth... leaving a few things for us to learn (Rom15:4) for ourselves. Else why the "mystery" used so often?
    Liked your answer, Rich, but am still of the same opinion: like you, for sure!
    I agree completely that the Bible does not, indeed could not, tell us the "WHOLE" truth because the whole truth is "beyond words" and what little of it could be put in words would require a book the size of the universe. But that's not the the source of the "dilemma" of this thread. The dilemma surrounding the death of Judas is that it appears to be a flat out contradiction with the implication that the Bible is flawed and so cannot be completely trusted as a historical source.

    And just so you know, I've never seriously thought about this before. My answer just came off the top of my head. There are many things I need to research to strengthen my case, but I can't imagine how anyone could hold to the story you told. Why do you believe something that has so much evidence against it and none for it?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by kathryn View Post
    Actually, there are no contradictions with Judas when you study this out in type and shadow, beginning with the Law of Moses. The hanging or "beheading" is one of the primary themes in scripture.
    Regardless of the imperfection of God's word coming through man, the divine dna is in every jot and tittle. As 2by's mentioned in another post...we simply need to learn to "rightly divide" the word of God. This is a process, and developes in the refining.
    I'm looking forward to exploring this with everyone on the weekend.
    Hi Kathyrn

    I think we need to understand the real meaning of "rightly dividing" the Bible, and that is seeing it for what it really is: a book of human authorship, relating mans experiences of what they perceive to be the Divine.

    Rose
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