Full Or Partial Preterism: Or the other "isms"

[Beck]

Your story is much like every other Preterist; we were all at one time raised as Futurists. As a child, I was told in my church (Southern Baptist Church) that the Jews (of today) are still God's chosen people, and that one day, and Anti-Christ wearing the number 666 would try to take over the entire world. But then comes the Mighty Jesus to save the day.

To me, there are only two eschatology's that are the most correct; either Full or Partial Preterism. There's no doubt in my mind that Revelation was entirely about the destruction of the former wife of God (Old Covenant Israel) to the eternal establishment of the New Wife of God (New Covenant Israel). The problem has to do with the Millennium and the New Heaven and New Earth. When is the new wife established? Past or future?

As I've been explaining, if the New Heaven and New Earth has not yet been established, then because of Christ who said not a single stroke of an iota or letter would be stricken from the law until all was fulfilled; this includes the works of the law, i.e. its annual requirements. We know that Jesus fulfilled the Spring Feasts at His initial coming. We also believe, although not certain, that Jesus fulfilled the Fall Feasts at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD. Thus, one would logically assume that the New Heaven and New Earth were established at that time. The problem is with the resurrection, and again, the Millennium. Not to mention if we are still in the old heaven and old earth, awaiting it to pass away, then we are bound by the works of the Law. We may have been set free from sins, but then this would seem to contradict Paul's teaching that the laws works are no longer applicable; fasting, new moons, Sabbaths, and at least the Fall Feasts of Israel; all of these are still in effect because they have not yet been fulfilled.

Now in considering the law, it is not who fulfills it, but Christ Jesus; that much is certain. So if the Fall Feasts are still unfulfilled, then textually from His comments are recorded in Matthew, this portion of the Law has not yet been accomplished; therefore, we are still bound by its requirements, yet no Church (probably except Roman Catholics and Greek Orthodox) continues to celebrate those requirements. Protestants certainly don't.

At any rate, if we are still in the Old Heaven and Earth, then are guilty of keeping the whole law. And since it is believed that Jesus has not yet fulfilled the whole law, then heaven and earth has not yet passed away, thereby binding us to continue observing either some or all of the law, until all is fulfilled, and this heaven and earth passes away.

See my point?

My "proposed" solution is that Revelation is being read incorrectly. The many thrones, and the Great White Throne judgment are all one event; which matches what Daniel is shown. For Daniel is not told that a long gap exists between the initial judgment, and the Great White Throne judgment. If we read Revelation consecutively, then the following must take place as it is written:

1. Harlot destroyed
2. Marriage supper of the lamb
3. Beast captured and sentenced to death
4. First resurrection (Martyrs)
5. Satan bound
6. Many thrones set up
7. Thousand years reign with Christ
8. Satan let loose
9. Final battle against the camp of God (Church)
10. Final resurrection
11. Great White Throne judgment
12. Bride dressed for her wedding
13. New Heaven and New Earth with New Jerusalem

Now take a look at something. Remember my proposal is that the many thrones John sees in point #6 is the same time-frame of the Great White Throne in point #10. If they are separated by thousands of years (reign of Saints with Christ), then doesn't it seem rather odd that the marriage supper of the lamb (a celebration of the marriage between Christ and His Church) is separated by thousands of years until the Bride is actually dressed for marriage? So are we talking about 2000+ years between the wedding feast, and the marriage?

This is what made me think on this, leading up to my proposal that the order of events are as follows:

1. Harlot destroyed
2. Marriage supper of the lamb
3. Beast captured and sentenced to death
4. First resurrection (Martyrs)
5. Many thrones set up
5. Great White Throne judgment
7. Bride dressed for her wedding
8. New Heaven and New Earth with New Jerusalem
9. Satan bound
10. Thousand years reign with Christ
11. Satan let loose
12. Final battle against the camp of God (Church)
13. Final resurrection of the unsaved (sinners only)

This is what I'm proposing, that the 1000 years being mentioned in the middle of the main idea of the thrones, judgments, and first resurrection, tends to detract us from the time-line; as in the detraction found in Daniel's 70 sevens as explained before.

I'm wondering what everyone else thinks. I know that this is far-fetched, but I merely wanted you all to ponder on this. This would eliminate the problem found with the passing of the Old Heaven and Old Earth, thereby setting us totally free from the Law and its works. The only other solution is that the works of the Law have been done away with, leaving only the 10 commandments. But if that's the case, then this contradicts the striking of one iota or title that Jesus mentioned. He specifically said that heaven and earth would not pass away until the law was completely fulfilled. Even so, I'm beginning to think that Partial Preterism may be the better choice.

Joe

Not so fast my friend What I was trying to point out is that if the new earth and heaven is consistant to the new covenant it would be at the time of redemption and or consummation the ending of that age [world]. According to the writtings from Luke it appears soon after the city was surrounded by armies. Given the parable of the fig tree with summer is nigh at hand, then look up your redemption. This of course is after the Judgment of God has been poured out.

When John writes that he saw the new heaven and earth he invisioned it having a new city which is called New Jerusalem. This of course is again after the Judgment of that Great city Mystery Babylon. I heard many interperations of this city, Rome, Russia, China and America, but really it's not that hard to understand that it's speaking of the flesh of Israel.

As to your proposal I think we should view the thousand years from when Christ ascended and begun sitting on the right hand of God casting satan [flesh] to the earth. In so they the flesh, woman, bondwoman begun to persectue the brethren. Again I refer to Acts chapter 8 this continues until the end of that age. Paul speaks about the Law which can't coexit with Grace in how he spoke of the bondwoman and the freewoman. So in this new earth and heaven there is no temple for God and Jesus are the temple.

Those thrones given to those martyrs where they reign with Christ in his throne. We see Jesus telling Peter that they held the keys of the kingdom to bind or loose. We also see them joining in Christ judgment upon those that killed them in the judgment of Jerusalem. There final act of judgment was upon the Whore Jerusalem where they through their faithful acts even in death where found clean and white not having been defiled by the flesh [bondwoman]. So needless to say the thousand years to me represent from Christ to the judgment of the Whore.

[TheForgiven]

Not so fast my friend What I was trying to point out is that if the new earth and heaven is consistant to the new covenant it would be at the time of redemption and or consummation the ending of that age [world]. According to the writtings from Luke it appears soon after the city was surrounded by armies. Given the parable of the fig tree with summer is nigh at hand, then look up your redemption. This of course is after the Judgment of God has been poured out.

When John writes that he saw the new heaven and earth he invisioned it having a new city which is called New Jerusalem. This of course is again after the Judgment of that Great city Mystery Babylon. I heard many interperations of this city, Rome, Russia, China and America, but really it's not that hard to understand that it's speaking of the flesh of Israel.

As to your proposal I think we should view the thousand years from when Christ ascended and begun sitting on the right hand of God casting satan [flesh] to the earth. In so they the flesh, woman, bondwoman begun to persectue the brethren. Again I refer to Acts chapter 8 this continues until the end of that age. Paul speaks about the Law which can't coexit with Grace in how he spoke of the bondwoman and the freewoman. So in this new earth and heaven there is no temple for God and Jesus are the temple.

Those thrones given to those martyrs where they reign with Christ in his throne. We see Jesus telling Peter that they held the keys of the kingdom to bind or loose. We also see them joining in Christ judgment upon those that killed them in the judgment of Jerusalem. There final act of judgment was upon the Whore Jerusalem where they through their faithful acts even in death where found clean and white not having been defiled by the flesh [bondwoman]. So needless to say the thousand years to me represent from Christ to the judgment of the Whore.

Very very good brother Beck! You hit the nail right on the head.

Of course you know that I have to play the advocate in discussing Full or Partial Preterism. When we combine the events spoken of in the Gospels, with regards to the OD, then it's quite clear that the destruction of Jerusalem, and the establishment of the kingdom of Christ by that time, the New Heaven and New Earth had been forever established. The Martyrs reigned with Christ Jesus from that point and time.

We see in Daniel that there is only one judgment that took place, yet in John's Revelation, it seems like two judgments; one at the first resurrection, and the rest after the Millenniums. My belief is that the Millennium is not a literal 1000 years, but a figure of speech. Peter's use of the Millennium is a figure of speech, indicating that what may seem like a thousand years to us, is to God a single day. My example of this was living without electricity for three days, which to me felt much like a hundred years; when you're suffering, time always seems to distant, and so long. And Peter addresses them because they were suffering persecution, and wanting the Lord to hurry up and end it; to them, it was as a thousand years. But as Peter also states, the Lord is patient, and so we should consider long-term suffering as a thousand years, really just a short span of time. Thus, the 1000 years could also be a day.

I'm proud of you Beck. I'd say you are a well established Full Preterist.

Joe

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

Agreed; our religious beliefs and influences on American Leadership seems to directly impact our foreign policy. Zionists are primarily responsible for our engagements with Israel, and the Palestinian state.

Yes, as do our interpretations of Rom 13 and similar sections. If the church is individualist and promotes individual accountability and freedom unto God and in an associated like professing group, then the concepts of separation of church and humanist state also need consideration.

Then again, we could have an ever bigger problem with 7th Day Adventists pushing their Historicist agenda; they are far worse than main-stream Futurists

.
The 7th dayers must have been an offshoot of a 'movement' or doctrinal emphasis. Their advocacy of the 10 commandments, the perpetuation of the law of moses, the late date authorship of Revelation, and [I think they believe] in the literal physical remaking of the earth ARE NOT supported under scrutiny. At least not from our perspectives. There are alot of good people within, and I believe some or many true Christians, but I think some of the indoctrinations will simply fall over time if not through confrontation.
From what I've seen, they recognize the fulfilled 70 weeks;and the Spirit within; but then project the other chapters of Daniel to an 'end times' rather than the 'time of the end' of the mosaic covenant that was previously prophesied by Moses when giving the covt. The angel refers to Deut 31:29 when he comes to tell Daniel of the the events to befall the mosaic covenant people in the 'latter days' in Dan 10:14. They also project Revelation to the future to coincide with the errors of Daniels 'end to time'.

Well my speculation or belief is that Satan had total rule and dominion over the nations until Christ won the victory. Remember when Satan tempted Christ? He says that all the nations belonged to him, and he could do with them as he pleased. But he would give them to Jesus, if Jesus would bow down and worship him instead of God. But God replies that God alone is to be worshiped. Jesus, instead of giving into Satan's temptation, remained faithful; even faithful to death on the cross. Thus, because of His faithfulness, He earned His right to be king of all the nations. The next step after winning the victory was taming the nations by the introduction, and expansion of His kingdom. This results in all that Satan had established, formerly known as "Leviathan", had become "Christian".

This is where I'd disagree somewhat. Christianity is individualistically delivered, not through tamed nations, and the expansion of tamed kingdoms. Nations are not Christian though nations may [or may not] establish laws respecting individual religious liberties and individual freedom. If they establish laws respecting such, that still does not make the 'nation' Christian. This individuality is represented by Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, all experiencing God's blessing, acceptance, and conversion individually. A man individually and eternally accountable to his/her maker/remaker is in some respects his own 'country', his own 'nation'; his own 'city' and yet associate with others. The idea of nations being christian is I think a carryover from mosaic covenant 'nationalism'.


Couple points to add to the meditation.

Revelation was written as a letter and short term prophecy to specific groups in asia minor mostly, who would be able to watch and testify as these things unfolded; and I believe not as a long term prophecy such as Deuteronomy, Isaiah, or other OT prophecies. As in interpreting the other epistles, we must seek to understand how the original audience who were likely more skilled in the Hebrew writings, thought and meanings than what we are today. For this reason and because all the other forward looking statements in the epistles culminated in the end of the first century [even more specifically by the end of fulfilled prophecies of the mosaic covenant] I think the fulfillment of Revelation is also contained within the first century. In a typical 'blanket' statement we could say; it wasn't written to you or us.

I agree that prophecy and even the historical writings need not be linear. Dan 9 and the 70 weeks prophecy is evidence alone. Dan 7's overlapping sections giving increasing detail of the same time period as another. The book of Deuteronomy, for another good example, seems to make a thought, then backtrack and repeat a different angle or happening of the same progressive time period. But it, as an example, generally starts with descriptions and conditions of the beginning of the nation.... and ends with the events and conditions of the end of the nation. And that ending is somewhat of a summary of the purposes and principles present within the greater time period of the whole book. For example the 'utter destruction' and times of the latter ends is first mentioned in chapter 5, then 9; then 18 with the new prophet, and again in chapter 31 and 32.

So, yes there is merit to consider taking the 1000 yrs and the new heavens and earth from the linear reading and the context, and considering them outside of the immediate context of the rest of the prophecies. BUT, I personally still like the idea of the emphasis that 1000 yrs = the length of a mans [THE MAN] life as borrowed from the limit of the length of a mans life in Genesis.

And if it's intended to sometimes be a representation of 3 1/2 yrs it is then referring to the importance and weight of that mans life [and 3 1/2 yr teaching] for those who 'loved not their lives' to the death". He who sought to save their lives and national entity, lost them. Those who 'lost their lives', their respect and good standing in their jewish communities; even losing their land temporarily would save them. The disciples/apostles would rather die in the freedom, love and obedience to the lordship and Deity of Christ and his teachings than to subjugate themselves to the slavery, dominion, claimed lordship and deity of agnostic/atheist/humanist or pagan mens doctrines.

But again, I support these ideas that the narrative even within a chapter may not be linear or chronological, but more 'sporadic' and intertwined with other ideas, similar even to how a conversation might be among friends when several topics are being discussed. This actually supports that the 1000 yrs, like the New Heavens, new Earth are summary of the topics of the letter of Revelation; and even the topics the bible and of the New Creation of the New Man, new Adam And those in Asia minor would have already understood the symbolism of 1000 yrs being Christ, the New Adam's length of his lifespan under law. The prophesied declarations of Dan 9:24 were fulfilled in the first century in Christs administration through his indwelling Holy Spirit.

For fun we throw in Isaiah 65:17 where a child will die 100 yrs calling out 'Abba' [through his/her life] while the sinner, though 100 yrs remains 'accursed'. This is close to the mention of New Heavens and earth in Is 65. And we note that John 'remained' and lived to age 100...and others afterward to 120.


One thing for sure; we can ask seek knock and if we are caught up and abiding in other personal principle, understanding, statute and obedience, we are sure to gain answers. Another thing for sure; there is more to life and God's ways of His Spirit and love than having to know or articulate every single detail immediately. [note to self]

[TheForgiven]

This is where I'd disagree somewhat. Christianity is individualistically delivered, not through tamed nations, and the expansion of tamed kingdoms. Nations are not Christian though nations may [or may not] establish laws respecting individual religious liberties. If they establish laws respecting such, that still does not make the 'nation' Christian. This individuality is represented by Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, all experiencing God's blessing, acceptance, and conversion individually. A man individually and eternally accountable to his/her maker/remaker is in some respects his own 'country', his own 'nation'; his own 'city' and yet associate with others. The idea of nations being christian is I think a carryover from mosaic covenant 'nationalism'.

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

Are you emphasizing this for further clarification or explanation?
Or for profoundness of new [to you] thought?

[TheForgiven]

For some reason, my post vanished. I see where I quote from you, but what I typed is not there.

Anyways, what I was trying to say is that I did not clarify my position correctly. When I say nations under God, I mean nations that are predominately Christian; these nations God blesses and nourishes. Nations that do not come to know God, meaning very few Christians exist there, He may not bless as much. If you look at the nations that reject Christ, not many of them flourish, although some of those "bad" nations may be used by God as instruments of punishing backsliders.

So I agree with you that nations are not necessarily Christian, but I mean that there are nations which possesses Christianity, and is the dominate religion. The United States is losing its touch and relationship with God. That is why I believe that our nation may crumble, just as what happened to nations of the past.

Remember, Christ Jesus rules all of us, and He rules us with a rod of iron, as Revelation states. When nations do bad, and grows sinful, He punishes until the field has been tilled again, and new seeds planted; that's how I view the active kingdom of Heaven. Those in heaven are, in my opinion, responsible for looking over portions of the world. Remember in Revelation, Jesus promised some of the early church that He would give them the "morning star", just as He received from His Father. "Morning Star" is a metaphor of a king, although they may not be the high-king, they are at least responsible for potions of the world, and perhaps even other worlds outside of our solar system, or even our galaxy. This is the one reason why I believe Futurists are wrong in expecting eternity on a small little globe we call earth. The universe is so big and vast that it seems to me that if we are the only ones, then that's an awfully big waste of space [quote from the move Contact]. Now of course, I'm not advocating little green men here. But I myself believe there are billions of other humanoid planets in other parts of the universe. And sense space is endless, why should we expect pro-creation to have a future end, as the Futurist would suggest? God is so magnificent that our minds cannot even fathom the mysteries, the greatness, and the expanse of His universe. And because we are not even a grain of sand in the universe, I have to believe that procreation and life will always continue, with His Kingdom as the head rule over all the earth; not rule as in authority, but rule as in a guiding light. As our Lord says, we are a light unto the world, set on a tall hill for all to see, so that our light shines upon everyone.

God bless.

Joe

[CWH]

Great Post Joe,
[QUOTE=TheForgiven;31959]

Anyways, what I was trying to say is that I did not clarify my position correctly. When I say nations under God, I mean nations that are predominately Christian; these nations God blesses and nourishes. Nations that do not come to know God, meaning very few Christians exist there, He may not bless as much. If you look at the nations that reject Christ, not many of them flourish, although some of those "bad" nations may be used by God as instruments of punishing backsliders.

So I agree with you that nations are not necessarily Christian, but I mean that there are nations which possesses Christianity, and is the dominate religion. The United States is losing its touch and relationship with God. That is why I believe that our nation may crumble, just as what happened to nations of the past.

Agree and disagree with you. God used punishment to "wake" up nations who were in errors in the OT. Presently, China is poised to take over the US as the world's number one economic nation, is China a said blessed country with few Christians?

Remember, Christ Jesus rules all of us, and He rules us with a rod of iron, as Revelation states. When nations do bad, and grows sinful, He punishes until the field has been tilled again, and new seeds planted; that's how I view the active kingdom of Heaven. Those in heaven are, in my opinion, responsible for looking over portions of the world. Remember in Revelation, Jesus promised some of the early church that He would give them the "morning star", just as He received from His Father. "Morning Star" is a metaphor of a king, although they may not be the high-king, they are at least responsible for potions of the world, and perhaps even other worlds outside of our solar system, or even our galaxy. This is the one reason why I believe Futurists are wrong in expecting eternity on a small little globe we call earth. The universe is so big and vast that it seems to me that if we are the only ones, then that's an awfully big waste of space [quote from the move Contact]. Now of course, I'm not advocating little green men here. But I myself believe there are billions of other humanoid planets in other parts of the universe. And sense space is endless, why should we expect pro-creation to have a future end, as the Futurist would suggest? God is so magnificent that our minds cannot even fathom the mysteries, the greatness, and the expanse of His universe. And because we are not even a grain of sand in the universe, I have to believe that procreation and life will always continue, with His Kingdom as the head rule over all the earth; not rule as in authority, but rule as in a guiding light. As our Lord says, we are a light unto the world, set on a tall hill for all to see, so that our light shines upon everyone.

I agree with you that the earth will never be destroyed but will be renewed. I also believe in extraterrestrial inteliigent life in many worlds in the universe and certainly God has a part to play as well in governing those world for He is the one who created the vast universe.

Joe, you are a great futurist in the making; I am so proud of you.

Many Blessings.

[TheForgiven]

Agree and disagree with you. God used punishment to "wake" up nations who were in errors in the OT. Presently, China is poised to take over the US as the world's number one economic nation, is China a said blessed country with few Christians?

The Greek Orthodox Church is being pushed out of Russian, and they are moving into China; that's the latest report that I've heard. GOC fathers believe that God may be trying to bless China, and if the United States doesn't repent, it may find itself in the backseat of technology, and economical bankruptcy.

I agree with you that the earth will never be destroyed but will be renewed. I also believe in extraterrestrial inteliigent life in many worlds in the universe and certainly God has a part to play as well in governing those world for He is the one who created the vast universe.

Remember, this is from a Partial Preterist perspective. I haven't yet made up my mind as to which side I would choose. From Daniel's prophesy, it's quite clear that there is only one judgment day. But in Revelation, it appears there are two because of how the Millennium seems to read as though the first judgment took place prior to the start of the Millennium, and then again after the Millennium.

Joe, you are a great futurist in the making; I am so proud of you.

Many Blessings.

Hey now, don't get too excited. I know some consider Partial Preterists to be a Partial Futurists. But as I indicated, I'm merely playing the advocate here. As of now, I'm a Full Preterists based on Daniel's Prophesy's; I'm merely counting on my fellow Full Preterirsts to blast me away. Brother Beck has thrown some pretty good shots so far, but still not enough to convince me that Partial Preterism is correct.

Joe

[Beck]

We see in Daniel that there is only one judgment that took place, yet in John's Revelation, it seems like two judgments; one at the first resurrection, and the rest after the Millenniums. My belief is that the Millennium is not a literal 1000 years, but a figure of speech. Peter's use of the Millennium is a figure of speech, indicating that what may seem like a thousand years to us, is to God a single day. My example of this was living without electricity for three days, which to me felt much like a hundred years; when you're suffering, time always seems to distant, and so long. And Peter addresses them because they were suffering persecution, and wanting the Lord to hurry up and end it; to them, it was as a thousand years. But as Peter also states, the Lord is patient, and so we should consider long-term suffering as a thousand years, really just a short span of time. Thus, the 1000 years could also be a day.

I'm proud of you Beck. I'd say you are a well established Full Preterist.

Joe

I really like your example

[Beck]

Hey now, don't get too excited. I know some consider Partial Preterists to be a Partial Futurists. But as I indicated, I'm merely playing the advocate here. As of now, I'm a Full Preterists based on Daniel's Prophesy's; I'm merely counting on my fellow Full Preterirsts to blast me away. Brother Beck has thrown some pretty good shots so far, but still not enough to convince me that Partial Preterism is correct.

Joe

Joe, While I'm at it I wouldn't place a total reliance upon Daniel's prophesy's. While they do parallel with the book of Revelation I don't think one should read or use Daniel to interpret Revelation. It seems to me that maybe John used the book of Daniel as a way to express an similar time. As you may know I'm of the opinion that Daniel is expressing the future time of Antiochus IV in the way of typology of the yet future time of Jesus concerning an abomination that maketh desolate.