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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twospirits View Post
    First, the 'distinction' between Jehovah and Christ standing on the Mt. Of Olives was not why I posted. I posted because of the statement you made as to the 'time' of Zech 14's fulfillment, and not 'whether it was Jehovah or Christ' who fulfilled it. So the 'time' of fulfillment does matter! For the proof of fulfillment of Zech 14 (in Zechariah's time according to you) would confirm your case as being true, and the Dispensationalists wrong. Otherwise your claim that it was fulfilled in Zechariah's time is left unconfirmed, thus invalid.

    God bless---Twospirits
    TS,

    The reason why you posted is a diversion from my purpose for starting this thread. I want to establish FIRST that there is no prophecy in the scripture which says that Christ will physically return to earth. The Zechariah 14 prophecy about Jehovah coming and standing on the mt. of Olives is a favorite "proof text" employed by the Futurists in support of their notion that Christ will physically return to earth. It clearly is not.

    We cannot proceed to discuss your issues UNTIL you have conceded that the prophecy does NOT say that Christ will physically return to earth. I will be glad to discuss the timing in conjunction with the conditional nature of the fulfillment of Zechariah's prophecies AFTER you have conceded that Zechariah offers you no proof whatsoever that Christ will physically return to earth.

    Otherwise your claim that it was fulfilled in Zechariah's time is left unconfirmed, thus invalid.
    You err because the fulfillment of the prophecy was conditional. Zechariah began with Jehovah saying,

    "Return to me and I will return to you says Jehovah" (1:3)

    This tells us immediately that Jehovah's return to His people in 14:4 was CONDITIONAL and the fact that He returned to them establishes only that they met the first conditions. It did not guarantee that the prophecies to follow would be fulfilled if they did not continue to meet God's conditions.

    It is my contention that the Jews failed to meet God's conditions and therefore Zechariah's kingdom prophecies cannot be fulfilled. Their continued failures resulted in Christ providing for the remnant something far better than that which Zechariah spoke about.

    Again, I FIRST need a clear statement from you that Zechariah 14:4 does NOT prove the Futurist contention that Christ will physically return to the earth. Then we may proceed.

    thanks,

    KJ

  2. #12
    Kangaroo Jack wrote,

    The reason why you posted is a diversion from my purpose for starting this thread.
    Huh? Asking an open and honest question on this thread is to be seen as a diversion to you? Would it be considered "a diversion" if a preterist asked you that question? I think not. (Remember you made that statement in your post that it was fulfilled in Zechariah's time, opening it up to questions from the readers like myself).

    We cannot proceed to discuss your issues UNTIL you have conceded that the prophecy does NOT say that Christ will physically return to earth.
    You do not even know "where" I stand on Zech 14:4, yet your statement claims you do. I would have happily answered your question had you not have been so rude---

    Forget I even asked---

    God bless---Twospirits
    Last edited by Twospirits; 06-02-2011 at 12:17 PM.
    "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twospirits View Post
    Huh? Asking an open and honest question on this thread is to be seen as a diversion to you? Would it be considered "a diversion" if a preterist asked you that question? I think not. (Remember you made that statement in your post that it was fulfilled in Zechariah's time, opening it up to questions from the readers like myself).



    You do not even know "where" I stand on Zech 14:4, yet your statement claims you do. I would have happily answered your question had you not have been so rude---

    Forget I even asked---

    God bless---Twospirits
    Huh what? I said would deal with your points after you dealt with mine. I made my point about the distinction between Jehovah and Christ FIRST.

    In what way was I rude to you? I simply said "you err."

    I think you are trying to dodge the distinction that is made between Jehovah and Christ in Zechariah 13-14. Jehovah clearly distinguished His Shepherd (Christ) from Himself (13:7). Then it says that Jehovah would come and stand on the Mt. of Olives.

    It is true that I don't know your stance on Zechariah 14:4. I assume you believe that 14:4 says that Christ will physically return to earth. There are basically two kinds of Futurists. There are those who believe that Christ will return to the lower heavens or skies to receive His people to Himself and then destroy the earth. Then there are those who teach that He will return to earth to set up His kingdom.

    If you do not fall into the latter group, then what would be the problem with you admitting outright that 14:4 says nothing about a physical return of Christ? Then we can move on to discuss the time frame.

    BTW, the wording of the prophecy in the original infers only that Jehovah's coming would create a fault that would run through the Mount. The geological evidence witnessess to the fulfillment of this because there is a fault that runs through the Mt. of Olives. The argument can be made that the presence of this fault was the geological cause of the earthquake that occurred when Jesus was hanging on the cross causing the veil of the temple to be torn.

    Again, the existence of the fault that runs through the Mt. of Olives witnesses to the fulfillment of Zechariah's prophecy. And the CLEAR distinction between Jehovah and Christ in the prophecy totally disallows the Futurist belief that Christ will return physically to the earth.

    KJ

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangaroo Jack View Post
    BTW, the wording of the prophecy in the original infers only that Jehovah's coming would create a fault that would run through the Mount. The geological evidence witnessess to the fulfillment of this because there is a fault that runs through the Mt. of Olives. The argument can be made that the presence of this fault was the geological cause of the earthquake that occurred when Jesus was hanging on the cross causing the veil of the temple to be torn.

    Again, the existence of the fault that runs through the Mt. of Olives witnesses to the fulfillment of Zechariah's prophecy. And the CLEAR distinction between Jehovah and Christ in the prophecy totally disallows the Futurist belief that Christ will return physically to the earth.

    KJ
    Your erroneous view is that Mount of Olives is split by a fissure but the Bible said it is split by a very large valley! Cant you see the difference between a fissure and a large valley.

    The "fissure" that runs through the Mt. of Olives was described as LARGE or VERY LARGE or WIDE and not a small fissure:

    Zechariah 14:3-4
    New International Version (NIV)

    3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.

    King James Version (KJV)

    3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

    4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

    King James Version (KJV)

    3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he has fought in times past.4 At that time he will stand on the Mount of Olives, to the east of Jerusalem. Then the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west by a large valley. Half of the mountain will move northward, and half of it southward.

    The Message (MSG)

    3-5But then God will march out against the godless nations and fightó a great war! That's the Day he'll take his stand on the Mount of Olives, facing Jerusalem from the east. The Mount of Olives will be split right down the middle, from east to west, leaving a wide valley. Half the mountain will shift north, the other half south. Then you will run for your lives down the valley, your escape route that will take you all the way to Azal. You'll run for your lives, just as you ran on the day of the great earthquake in the days of Uzziah, king of Judah. Then my God will arrive and all the holy angels with him.

    New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    3 Then the LORD will go forth and (A)fight against those nations, as [a]when He fights on a day of battle. 4 In that day His feet will (B)stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be (C)split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.

    Many Blessings
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Your erroneous view is that Mount of Olives is split by a fissure but the Bible said it is split by a very large valley! Cant you see the difference between a fissure and a large valley.
    As RAM said on this thread, "Translations are worthless." According to Strong's Concordance the word means "fissure." The Mount was not to be split by a large valley.

    The "fissure" that runs through the Mt. of Olives was described as LARGE or VERY LARGE or WIDE and not a small fissure:
    The words "large" and "wide" are YOUR words. You erroneously assume that the word "valley" is correct translation. The online Hebrew Interlinear translates it as "ravine." http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...Tpdf/zec14.pdf

    A ravine is a NARROW valley that runs deep. http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ravine

    It was a NARROW ravine. It was "great" in the sense that it ran deep. Nothing is said about a wide valley. This is YOUR assumption. The fissure (or ravine) existed in Jesus' day and was probably the geological cause of the earthquake that occurred while He hung on the cross.

    The more you ignore the fact that it is not Christ but Jehovah who came to the Mt. of Olives the more you appear biased.

    KJ
    Last edited by Kangaroo Jack; 06-05-2011 at 10:52 AM.

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