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  1. #1
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    Jehovah and not Christ stood on the Mt. of Olives

    TO ALL:

    It has been said by the Futurists that Jesus is supposed to come and that His feet will stand upon the Mt. of Olives. They base this on an erroneous interpretation of Zechariah 14:4

    3 Then Jehovah will go forth
    And fight against those nations,
    As He fights in the day of battle.
    4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
    Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
    And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
    From east to west,
    Making a very large valley;
    Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
    And half of it toward the south.
    This passage does NOT say that Jesus' feet will stand on the Mt. of Olives. It says that Jehovah's feet will stand on the Mt. of Olives.

    Christ is distinguished from Jehovah in the context. In chapter 13:7 Christ is distinguished from Jehovah:

    7 “ Awake, O sword, against My Shepherd,
    Against the Man who is My Companion,”
    Says Jehovah of hosts.

    “ Strike the Shepherd,
    And the sheep will be scattered;
    Then I will turn My hand against the little ones.

    ESV
    Note that Jehovah distinguishes Himself from His Shepherd (Christ) whom He called "the MAN who is My companion."

    Jehovah's feet stood on Mt. Sinai also

    And he said:

    Jehovah came from Sinai,
    And dawned on them from Seir;
    He shone forth from Mount Paran,
    And He came with ten thousands of saints;
    From His right hand
    Came a fiery law for them.

    3 Yes, He loves the people;
    All His saints are in Your hand;
    They sit down at Your feet;
    Everyone receives Your words.

    Deuteronomy 33:2-3
    The Futurists WRONGFULLY ascribe to the Shepherd the coming of Jehovah in Zechariah . Zechariah's prophecy was about a coming of Jehovah in Zechariah's time. Jehovah was spoken about as having "feet" in many instances in the scriptures.

    Zechariah's prophecy was fulfilled in Zechariah's time and there is a fissure that runs through the Mt. of Olives.

    KJ
    Last edited by Kangaroo Jack; 05-28-2011 at 07:54 PM.

  2. #2
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    To our Futurist Friends,

    Where are ya?

    KJ

  3. #3
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    I think I chased them away. It tends to happen, but they always return. I believe I have a tendency to be rude to some of them; especially when I get a little tired of debating the same issues over and over. We need some fresh Futurists on here who are at least open to scriptural suggestion, with the honesty enough to admit that they just might be wrong. As if that will ever happen.

    Seriously, I think it's time for us Preterists to discuss something amongst ourselves. We've really got to close the lid on whether Partial Preterism or Full Preterism is correct.

    If my fellow Preterists are up to it, let's begin discussing this.

    Let me know what you think. I don't believe there are any Partial Preterists on here, but I used to be one, so I suppose I could play the advocate.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangaroo Jack View Post
    TO ALL:

    It has been said by the Futurists that Jesus is supposed to come and that His feet will stand upon the Mt. of Olives. They base this on an erroneous interpretation of Zechariah 14:4


    This passage does NOT say that Jesus' feet will stand on the Mt. of Olives. It says that Jehovah's feet will stand on the Mt. of Olives.

    Christ is distinguished from Jehovah in the context. In chapter 13:7 Christ is distinguished from Jehovah:


    Note that Jehovah distinguishes Himself from His Shepherd (Christ) whom He called "the MAN who is My companion."

    Jehovah's feet stood on Mt. Sinai also


    The Futurists WRONGFULLY ascribe to the Shepherd the coming of Jehovah in Zechariah . Zechariah's prophecy was about a coming of Jehovah in Zechariah's time. Jehovah was spoken about as having "feet" in many instances in the scriptures.

    Zechariah's prophecy was fulfilled in Zechariah's time and there is a fissure that runs through the Mt. of Olives.

    KJ
    Some bible versions do mentioned Jehovah but many other bible versions do not mention Jehovah but the Lord. BTW the "fissure" that runs through the Mt. of Olives was LARGE or VERY LARGE or WIDE and not a small fissure:

    Zechariah 14:3-4
    New International Version (NIV)

    3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.

    New International Version (NIV)
    Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica

    King James Version (KJV)

    3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

    4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

    King James Version (KJV)

    Good News Translation (GNT)
    View commentary related to this passage

    3 Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he has fought in times past.4 At that time he will stand on the Mount of Olives, to the east of Jerusalem. Then the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west by a large valley. Half of the mountain will move northward, and half of it southward.

    Good News Translation (GNT)
    Copyright © 1992 by American Bible Society

    The Message (MSG)

    3-5But then God will march out against the godless nations and fight— a great war! That's the Day he'll take his stand on the Mount of Olives, facing Jerusalem from the east. The Mount of Olives will be split right down the middle, from east to west, leaving a wide valley. Half the mountain will shift north, the other half south. Then you will run for your lives down the valley, your escape route that will take you all the way to Azal. You'll run for your lives, just as you ran on the day of the great earthquake in the days of Uzziah, king of Judah. Then my God will arrive and all the holy angels with him.

    The Message (MSG)
    Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson

    New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    3 Then the LORD will go forth and (A)fight against those nations, as [a]when He fights on a day of battle. 4 In that day His feet will (B)stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be (C)split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.



    And Nothing mentioned about Jehovah but the Lord in these bible versions in Zechariah 13:7:

    Zechariah 13:7
    New International Version (NIV)

    The Shepherd Struck, the Sheep Scattered

    7 'Awake, sword, against my shepherd,
    against the man who is close to me!'
    declares the LORD Almighty.
    'Strike the shepherd,
    and the sheep will be scattered,
    and I will turn my hand against the little ones.

    New International Version (NIV)
    Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica

    King James Version (KJV)

    7Awake, O sword, against my shepherd, and against the man that is my fellow, saith the LORD of hosts: smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.

    King James Version (KJV)

    Good News Translation (GNT)

    The Command to Kill God's Shepherd

    7 (A)The Lord Almighty says,
    Wake up, sword, and attack the shepherd[a] who works for me! Kill him, and the sheep will be scattered. I will attack my people

    Footnotes:
    Zechariah 13:7 shepherd: See 11.4.
    Cross references:
    Zechariah 13:7 : Zech 13:7; Matt 26:31; ; Mark 14:27; .
    Good News Translation (GNT)
    Copyright © 1992 by American Bible Society

    The Message (MSG)

    7-9"Sword, get moving against my shepherd,
    against my close associate!"
    Decree of God-of-the-Angel-Armies.
    "Kill the shepherd! Scatter the sheep!
    The back of my hand against even the lambs!
    All across the country"—God's Decree—
    "two-thirds will be devastated
    and one-third survive.
    I'll deliver the surviving third to the refinery fires.
    I'll refine them as silver is refined,
    test them for purity as gold is tested.
    Then they'll pray to me by name
    and I'll answer them personally.
    I'll say, 'That's my people.'
    They'll say, 'God—my God!'"

    The Message (MSG)
    Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson

    New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    7 'Awake, O (A)sword, against My (B)Shepherd,
    And against the man, My (C)Associate,'
    Declares the LORD of hosts.
    '(D)Strike the Shepherd that the sheep may be scattered;
    And I will (E)turn My hand [a]against the little ones.


    And in Deuteronomy 33 2-3, no mention of Jehovah:

    Deuteronomy 33:2-3
    New International Version (NIV)

    2 He said:

    'The LORD came from Sinai
    and dawned over them from Seir;
    he shone forth from Mount Paran.
    He came with[a] myriads of holy ones
    from the south, from his mountain slopes.[b]
    3 Surely it is you who love the people;
    all the holy ones are in your hand.
    At your feet they all bow down,
    and from you receive instruction,

    Footnotes:
    Deuteronomy 33:2 Or from
    Deuteronomy 33:2 The meaning of the Hebrew for this phrase is uncertain.
    New International Version (NIV)
    Copyright © 1973, 1978, 1984, 2011 by Biblica

    King James Version (KJV)

    2And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.

    3Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.

    King James Version (KJV)

    Good News Translation (GNT)

    2 The Lord came from Mount Sinai;
    he rose like the sun over Edom
    and shone on his people from Mount Paran.
    Ten thousand angels were with him,
    a flaming fire at his right hand.[a]
    3 The Lord loves his people[b]
    and protects those who belong to him.
    So we bow at[c] his feet
    and obey his commands.

    Footnotes:
    Deuteronomy 33:2 Probable text Ten thousand...right hand; Hebrew unclear.
    Deuteronomy 33:3 One ancient translation his people; Hebrew the peoples.
    Deuteronomy 33:3 Probable text bow at; Hebrew unclear.
    Good News Translation (GNT)
    Copyright © 1992 by American Bible Society

    The Message (MSG)

    Deuteronomy 33

    The Blessing

    1-5 Moses, man of God, blessed the People of Israel with this blessing before his death. He said,
    God came down from Sinai,
    he dawned from Seir upon them;
    He radiated light from Mount Paran,
    coming with ten thousand holy angels
    And tongues of fire
    streaming from his right hand.
    Oh, how you love the people,
    all his holy ones are palmed in your left hand.
    They sit at your feet,
    honoring your teaching,
    The Revelation commanded by Moses,
    as the assembly of Jacob's inheritance.
    Thus God became king in Jeshurun
    as the leaders and tribes of Israel gathered.
    The Message (MSG)
    Copyright © 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 2000, 2001, 2002 by Eugene H. Peterson

    New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    2 He said,

    '(A)The LORD came from Sinai,
    (B)And [a]dawned on them from Seir;
    (C)He shone forth from Mount Paran,
    And He came from (D)the [b]midst of ten thousand holy ones;
    (E)At His right hand there was [c]flashing lightning for them.
    3 '(F)Indeed, He loves [d]the people;
    (G)All [e]Your holy ones are in Your hand,
    (H)And they [f]followed in Your steps;
    Everyone receives of Your words.


    Many Blessings.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  5. #5
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    Hey Choew....the reason why most of our English Bibles do not have the name "Jehovah" is because of a Jewish myth; specifically a Jewish myth that has somehow made its way into the Church, that God's name is so Holy that we should not to pronounce it; this is mere superstition. So to appease the Jews, we substitute the name of God for "the Lord". So when you read, "The Lord said to my Lord, sit at my right hand....", it's actually, "Jehovah God said to my Lord...." The 1901 American Standard Version correctly uses "Jehovah" where required, but the New American Standard Bible (predominately from the Baptist Denominations) refused to print God's name in their translations, and thus abided by the superstition of the Jews.

    So this pretty much disproves your theories on the subject. Just thought I'd like you know why Jehovah’s name is not printed in modern English Bibles...it's all a Jewish myth.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  6. #6
    Kangaroo Jack wrote,

    The Futurists WRONGFULLY ascribe to the Shepherd the coming of Jehovah in Zechariah . Zechariah's prophecy was about a coming of Jehovah in Zechariah's time. Jehovah was spoken about as having "feet" in many instances in the scriptures.

    Zechariah's prophecy was fulfilled in Zechariah's time and there is a fissure that runs through the Mt. of Olives.
    Zechariah's ministry began about 520 B. C. Are you saying that the events of chapter 14 of Zechariah was fulfilled in Zechariah's time? If so, what were the events of that fulfillment according to you? Or am I misunderstanding your statement here? Thanks,

    God bless---Twospirits
    "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Some bible versions do mentioned Jehovah but many other bible versions do not mention Jehovah but the Lord.
    That's a distinction without a difference Cheow. The "Lord" is just a translation of the word Yahweh. The translations are utterly irrelevant because the Hebrew text says Yahweh.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
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  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twospirits View Post
    Zechariah's ministry began about 520 B. C. Are you saying that the events of chapter 14 of Zechariah was fulfilled in Zechariah's time? If so, what were the events of that fulfillment according to you? Or am I misunderstanding your statement here? Thanks,

    God bless---Twospirits
    It doesn't matter! The distinction between Jehovah and Christ had just been made in 13:7.

    'Awake, O sword, against my shepherd,
    against the man who stands next to me,'
    declares JEHOVAH of hosts.

    'Strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered;
    I will turn my hand against the little ones.
    Jehovah and Christ the man are clearly distinguished in the context. It says that JEHOVAH (not Christ the man) was to come and that His feet would stand on the Mt. of Olives. It says that Jehovah's coming would cause a fissure (Strong's) to run through the Mount.

    Geologists tell us that a fissure runs through the Mt. of Olives. Therefore, the prophecy was fulfilled by Jehovah and NOT by Christ the man!

    Jehovah also came to Mt. Sinai with ten thousands of His angels. It says that the people sat at Jehovah's feet (Deuteronomy 33:2-3). No commentator says that Christ physically stood on Mt. Sinai.

    So when it comes right down to it the Futurists have no scriptural proof that Jesus will physically return to earth. He no longer has a physical body. He has His spiritual body now. Paul said that Christ would descend to the lower spheres and that His people would be "caught UP."

    It makes no sense to say that His people would be "caught UP" if He was to come back to earth.

    KJ

  9. #9
    Kangaroo Jack wrote,

    Originally Posted by Twospirits
    Zechariah's ministry began about 520 B. C. Are you saying that the events of chapter 14 of Zechariah was fulfilled in Zechariah's time? If so, what were the events of that fulfillment according to you? Or am I misunderstanding your statement here? Thanks,

    God bless---Twospirits

    It doesn't matter! The distinction between Jehovah and Christ had just been made in 13:7.
    First, the “distinction” between Jehovah and Christ standing on the Mt. Of Olives was not why I posted. I posted because of the statement you made as to the “time” of Zech 14's fulfillment, and not “whether it was Jehovah or Christ” who fulfilled it. So the “time” of fulfillment does matter! For the proof of fulfillment of Zech 14 (in Zechariah's time according to you) would confirm your case as being true, and the Dispensationalists wrong. Otherwise your claim that it was fulfilled in Zechariah's time is left unconfirmed, thus invalid.

    God bless---Twospirits
    Last edited by Twospirits; 06-01-2011 at 07:02 AM.
    "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).

  10. #10
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    Greetings everyone.

    I'll have a more detailed post later on this evening, with regards to Zechariah 14. Let me just quickly state that Zechariah's Prophesy cannot be a future fulfillment. If we interpret the text literally, then the valleys and the walls being torn down, and the gates, etc. to also include the living water flowing out of Jerusalem, could not be a literal fulfillment as it is written. Like most Prophesy, Zachariah was speaking spiritually, as in allegorically.

    The living waters represent the same living waters Jesus gave to the Samaritan woman at the well; the living waters is the Holy Spirit.

    The waters flowing to the east, etc. represent the Holy Spirit being poured out, beginning from Jerusalem, to the Gentile nations. Notice that only a remnant comes out of Jerusalem; the rest are judged. Then God turns His focus on the nations who attack Jerusalem; they would suffer horrible plagues. If we recall our history as to what happened all throughout the Roman Empire after 70AD, decades and even centuries, the Roman inhabitants suffered some of the most horrific plagues seen to man. Some died in as little as a day, with their bodies filling the Catacombs. Researches have claimed that the expressions on the bodies, which included children, died so fast that the sickness and horrors could still be seen on their faces.

    At any rate, the entire Prophesy, in my opinion, is speaking of the Church starting in Jerusalem, and spreading to the Gentile nations. Many of the Early Church Fathers interpreted Zachariah 14 as being fulfilled in the first century, and later upon the Roman inhabited world; fathers such as Tertillian, Eusebius, just to name a couple.

    I'll have a more detailed post later on.

    God bless, and have a wonderful day.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

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