Going to Heaven

[Beck]

As I've grown up in church and taught that when we die we are to go to heaven to be with the lord. If we go to heaven then why a resurrection? Looking at the promises heaven wouldn't be one. The rewards would be eternal life and thrones. Where shall those set on thrones? Jesus spoke that of Zion or Jerusalem. Which would be referred to as the New Jerusalem. Just some random thoughts here....May add some scripture later.

[Beck]

Here is a couple to get us started. This is song of truthing the God of David for God has chosen Zion the city of David as his habitation.

Psalm 132:11-16
The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.
12If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore.
13For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.
14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.
15I will abundantly bless her provision: I will satisfy her poor with bread.
16I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy.

This is also were we fine the 144,000 firstfruits of the redeemed standing on mount Sion.

Revelation 14:1
1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

These are also represented in the number of those given thrones to which they are to give judgment as they reign with Christ.

Revelation 20:4
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 3:12
12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Let us also note that the writer of Hebrews said that they have come unto mount Sion and unto the city. The writer was telling them that in the past with Moses the mount was guarded, he then tells them that ye have come unto the mount Sion.

Hebrews 12:20-22
20(For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake)
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels

This seems to be what is promised rather than heaven.

[TheForgiven]

Here is a couple to get us started. This is song of truthing the God of David for God has chosen Zion the city of David as his habitation.

Psalm 132:11-16
The LORD hath sworn in truth unto David; he will not turn from it; Of the fruit of thy body will I set upon thy throne.
12If thy children will keep my covenant and my testimony that I shall teach them, their children shall also sit upon thy throne for evermore.
13For the LORD hath chosen Zion; he hath desired it for his habitation.
14 This is my rest for ever: here will I dwell; for I have desired it.
15I will abundantly bless her provision: I will satisfy her poor with bread.
16I will also clothe her priests with salvation: and her saints shall shout aloud for joy.

This is also were we fine the 144,000 firstfruits of the redeemed standing on mount Zion.

Revelation 14:1
1And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.

These are also represented in the number of those given thrones to which they are to give judgment as they reign with Christ.

Revelation 20:4
4And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 3:12
12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Let us also note that the writer of Hebrews said that you are come unto mount Sion and unto the city. The write was telling them that in the past with Moses they looked for that city, he then tells them that ye have come unto the mount Sion.

Hebrews 12:20-22
20(For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
21And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake)
22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels

This seems to be what is promised rather than heaven.

Good observations brother Beck. And rightly did you quote "ye are come unto Mt. Zion...." the heavenly Jerusalem. But just as their is a heavenly Jerusalem, it is not limited to heaven alone, but on earth as well. Jerusalem is the abiding place of God, both in heaven, and on earth. Where does God abide on earth? In our hearts; in the assembly of believers; the city established by God as a spiritual kingdom; this heavenly kingdom that exists on earth is the Church of God; this kingdom that exists in heaven are the thrones of God. Heaven rules the earth, and the earth rules with heaven. It is not a kingdom according to mans standards, as in the ancients. Nay, this is a kingdom of light, rather than a kingdom of domination and evil rule. In this kingdom is freedom; but not for a license for sin. Those who sin will never inherit the eternal kingdom which abides above.

Thus, the author was speaking of the heavenly Jerusalem, where all who are in the Lord abide. They do not await to one day rule the earth; they do this now, with Jesus as Lord and King, upon us.

God bless.

Joe

[Brother Les]

As I've grown up in church and taught that when we die we are to go to heaven to be with the lord. If we go to heaven then why a resurrection? Looking at the promises heaven wouldn't be one. The rewards would be eternal life and thrones. Where shall those set on thrones? Jesus spoke that of Zion or Jerusalem. Which would be referred to as the New Jerusalem. Just some random thoughts here....May add some scripture later.

If you have not been Resurrected from The Dead, by the time that you physicall die.... then you will always be dead.

[Rose]

As I've grown up in church and taught that when we die we are to go to heaven to be with the lord. If we go to heaven then why a resurrection? Looking at the promises heaven wouldn't be one. The rewards would be eternal life and thrones. Where shall those set on thrones? Jesus spoke that of Zion or Jerusalem. Which would be referred to as the New Jerusalem. Just some random thoughts here....May add some scripture later.

Hi Beck,

That is an excellent observation, and question! If Christians go to heaven when they die then there is no need for a resurrection, because they can't take their physical bodies anyway.

I think the reason Paul, among others spoke of the resurrection being physical was for the benefit of the faith of those he was teaching. To keep their faith strong, folks would need the hope of a physical manifestation of Christ coming back to not only take them to heaven, but also to take those who had died to heaven....otherwise, how would they know that those who had died were really with the Lord.

All the Best,
Rose

[Beck]

Part of my question and reasoning is do we really go to heaven?! Those passages I listed shown that those living physically where said to have been standing on that mountain. Compared to that physcial mountain of Jerusalem where Jesus spoke of removing that mountain and casting it into the sea. This new spiritual mountain called Sion is where those were standing ready to enter into the new Jerusalem. Howbeit they where still in their physical bodies.

So what death is the NT speaking of the spiritual or physical? In reviewing how some passages seem to indicate that those given the Holy Spirit was promised an inheritance of land. So while they received the promised Comforter they remained focused on the day of their redemption. That day would no come until that physical mountain was casted into the sea.

Also those who became overcomers was promised to rule and reign with Christ for a thousand years. What death is this relating too? It's seems that this would have two part to the answer.

a.) To reign with Christ one must first be saved.
b.) In some places it seems that this relates to physical death before one would be classified as being an overcomer.

So the thought is when the new earth and new heaven is created, what is the need for a new heaven? What is heaven representing in this case?

[Rose]

Part of my question and reasoning is do we really go to heaven?! Those passages I listed shown that those living physically where said to have been standing on that mountain. Compared to that physcial mountain of Jerusalem where Jesus spoke of removing that mountain and casting it into the sea. This new spiritual mountain called Sion is where those were standing ready to enter into the new Jerusalem. Howbeit they where still in their physical bodies.

So what death is the NT speaking of the spiritual or physical? In reviewing how some passages seem to indicate that those given the Holy Spirit was promised an inheritance of land. So while they received the promised Comforter they remained focused on the day of their redemption. That day would no come until that physical mountain was casted into the sea.

Also those who became overcomers was promised to rule and reign with Christ for a thousand years. What death is this relating too? It's seems that this would have two part to the answer.

a.) To reign with Christ one must first be saved.
b.) In some places it seems that this relates to physical death before one would be classified as being an overcomer.

So the thought is when the new earth and new heaven is created, what is the need for a new heaven? What is heaven representing in this case?

If we come to the text with an open mind, seeking only a true understanding of what these 1st century believers were thinking because of their background the whole picture becomes clearer.

I can imagine that even though these 1st century believers encountered a supernatural experience of the "comforter" they still lived in a very physical world with desires to reign in an earthly kingdom with their image of God. Also the desire for their enemies to be defeated and conquered would have been mapped onto their understanding of this new heaven, along with an existence of peace and prosperity. All they had to draw from is what was known in this life, which probably explains the many contradictions and mixed-up ideas that are presented, especially in Revelation.

All the Best,
Rose

[throwback]

Beck, way to ask the right question(s)!!! I like you had been conditioned to believe that Heaven was the destiny of the believer but the more I dove into scripture the less this line of thinking meshed with waht was written. From Job, to the mother of Samuel, to Solomon, and finally Jesus himself, the hope put forth in scripture was not a heavenly dwelling place for all eternity, but rather a resurrection to life in a world where God's wrath has passed (Job 14).

The heavenly inheritance was spoken of by Jesus first and that inheritance was apparently NOT for all believers of all times. There was a "little flock", his bride, and a first-fruits group which was a select number Jesus chose to reign and have positions of authority in his kingdom with him. The hope for the rest of us was simply life, age lasting life under the reign of Jesus' kingdom where we will have access to trees and waters of life.

[Kangaroo Jack]

Beck wrote:

As I've grown up in church and taught that when we die we are to go to heaven to be with the lord. If we go to heaven then why a resurrection?

Before ad70 men did not go to heaven. They went down to sheol to await the resurrection. After the resurrection in ad70 men are "caught up" to be with the Lord. Their physical bodies are recycled.

KJ

[Richard Amiel McGough]

Beck wrote:Before ad70 men did not go to heaven. They went down to sheol to await the resurrection. After the resurrection in ad70 men are "caught up" to be with the Lord. Their physical bodies are recycled.

KJ

I've never believed there was a literal "place" called "Sheol" where people "went" to await the resurrection.

Do you believe in the "two compartment" theory, with the good guys in the "Paradise" (aka Abraham's Bosom) part of Sheol/Hades, and the bad guys in the other part? That's a pretty common teaching amongst evangelicals.