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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Wade View Post
    Brother Les & Brother Ram. Now I am really curious how a preterist views the many many oneness scriptures that Jesus refers: as to the indwelling of God in Him,You know them all, I am sure... Are you going to reduce Yeshua the Jesus of the Bible to less than a prophet as RAM has ? That{Jesus} doesn't know what he is talking about?
    Some folks would call this blasphemy,as God dwelled in Jesus. I truly need to look up that definition. So Brother Ram & brother les: What say the brethren? H I & wait on your answers.
    Thx for the action....chas

    It have been said many times..."a person can make the Bible say anything that they want". Anyone that has studied this book for anytime knows that to be true IF it is taken out of context and out of its' Biblical hermeneutics. As of late we have been hearing and seeing in writing the 'Quote'



    fMat 24:
    33So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

    34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

    35Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    36But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only


    People white wash verse 34 and zero in on verse 36....

    This lays out the idea that men are to NEVER know the Day or the Hour...
    Jesus was speaking at that time and at that place that know one knew that Day or the Hour, but as Jesus and John the Baptist plainly stated.... they Knew The Generation..... the generation that both of them were speaking to.

    John 14:
    25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

    26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.


    God sent 'The Comforter' after Jesus went up into the Holy of Holies. The Holy Spirit was to teach The Apostles ALL Things..... Do you not think that part of the 'ALL Things' was when The World/Age would end? Reading through the letters of Paul and James and Peter and John, we see a stepped up urgency letter by letter, increasing as they go until we get to the final letter by John, written to The Seven Churches.

    Revelation 1
    1The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

    2Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

    3Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

    Rev 22:
    10And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

    These First Century Apostles lived and saw everythign Jesus did. These men were told that the Holy Spirit was to come to them and teach them all things. John in his final chapter of Revelation said.."The Time is At Hand."

    We are most miserable if we go along with other people who wish to twist Scripture to show (for them and others) the verses of 'no man knows the day or hour', when we do know The Generation that was meant of the Coming of The New Covenant......

    The 'Destruction' of 'The World' was the Old Covenant World..... Was it destroyed? By all means possiable it was destroyed, never to return.....
    The New Testament Apostles were verifiying that the time of the Old Covenant was About to End and the World that revalved around that Covenant. When did it End?

    1 John 3:
    3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

    4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.


    Do you 'see' it? Jesus was MANIFESTED to take away our Sins...... He was 100% human and 100% God. He took on the Human nature and became the Only Sacrifice that could take away our Sins, by Fulfilling The Law? How did He do this? By being The Husband who made The Mosaic Covenant with His Wife. Whom She Killed.... The Death of The Husband (He would not forsake her, but she forsook him and killed him) started the Terms of The marriage Contract... Ending.... ie. Blessings and Curses. The Blessings... New Covenant for a Remnent. Curses.... Eternal Damnation for the rest.

    God made man in His 'image' and man has been trying to return the favor ever since. Man can not make God in mans image..... Man can not 'Manifest' himself into the image of God.
    Brother Les

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Wade View Post

    Well, Ram I can verily add so math isn't my long suit, and I can identify the north star and the big and little dipper, so I that is not a strong suit, and what I know about Ancient societies is what I have read in Stichin's book...As far as space travel, I have smoke weed before, But I have studied extensively the Giants in the Bible and entertained the Serpent seed theory.

    So, maybe you overlooked my question, or I didn't find the answer in your very elaborate post Senior .... I have noticed that your writing skills far exceed your reading comprehension.
    .... Please go back to the question if you can find it...thx Chas.
    My post was not "very elaborate." It consisted of five well-formed sentences that anyone with any "reading comprehension" should have had no trouble understanding.

    And I did not "overlook" your question. The problem was that it was too vague. You did not indicate what specifically required explanation. You said "Would you explain to me what this wheel is suppose to prove about the 66 books of the Bible." Any explanation would necessarily begin with an introduction to what the Bible Wheel is, and since you indicated that the whole thing was "too complex" I had to assume that you were completely ignorant of what the Bible Wheel is. That's why I asked if you had read the introductory material (which would take about 5 minutes). If you had not read that material, I would have to begin there before I could answer your question proper.

    This is very simple stuff. Why did you cop such a rude attitude with me?

    As I said, I would be happy to answer any questions, but you need to cooperate enough so I can know where to start. Did you read the introductory material or not? Why do I have to ask the same question twice?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    There is no such "proof." My comment was in response to a Futurist who was implying that Preterists are just like Harold Camping because Preterists supposedly say that Christ's "second coming" in the first century was "spiritual" and not literal like the Futurists think he predicted.

    Personally, I think both Preterists and Futurists are wrong because the Bible is wrong on this point. Jesus clearly expected a world transforming event every bit as literal as the Rapture, physical resurrection, and world-wide earthquake predicted by Harold Camping. Both Jesus and Harold Camping have been proven wrong. They are two peas in an apocalyptic pod.
    I see your point RAM, and as always you make a lot of sense. I would have to agree with most of your last paragraph with the exception of your assertion that Jesus was wrong and did not actually return as he said he would.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by throwback View Post
    I see your point RAM, and as always you make a lot of sense. I would have to agree with most of your last paragraph with the exception of your assertion that Jesus was wrong and did not actually return as he said he would.
    Thanks for the good words. It's nice to be understood once in a while.

    As for my opinion about Christ's coming - that results from an application of Occam's razor. After a few years trying to make sense out the contradictory passages relating to the coming of Christ, the simplest answer by far is that the Bible and/or Jesus were wrong on this point. But if I were to maintain Biblical inerrancy, then Preterism wins hands down. It seems to me that Futurism is impossible under any circumstances, though I understand why some folks find it compelling.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Thanks for the good words. It's nice to be understood once in a while.

    As for my opinion about Christ's coming - that results from an application of Occam's razor. After a few years trying to make sense out the contradictory passages relating to the coming of Christ, the simplest answer by far is that the Bible and/or Jesus were wrong on this point. But if I were to maintain Biblical inerrancy, then Preterism wins hands down. It seems to me that Futurism is impossible under any circumstances, though I understand why some folks find it compelling.
    Seems to me that both views are flawed and the proponents of each have a dificult time because they are so skilled at not letting the facts get in the way of their preconceptions and opinions.

    What it seems the scriptures actually teach is that the overwhelming majority of prophesy found fulfillment by the mid to late 1st century including even what is termed the "1st resurrection." Virtually all that remains is for this world at some point to come under the reign of the Kingdom of Heaven spoken of by Daniel and and talked about ad nousium by Jesus and his disciples. That kingdom was to began in the 1st century (that generation) according to scripture and a resurrection of saints and martyrs was also to take place during that time leaving post 1st century persons to look forward to the resurrection spoken of by Jesus in John 5:28-29 and Paul in Acts 24. (I guess I'm a quazi futurist after all).

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by throwback View Post
    Seems to me that both views are flawed and the proponents of each have a dificult time because they are so skilled at not letting the facts get in the way of their preconceptions and opinions.

    What it seems the scriptures actually teach is that the overwhelming majority of prophesy found fulfillment by the mid to late 1st century including even what is termed the "1st resurrection." Virtually all that remains is for this world at some point to come under the reign of the Kingdom of Heaven spoken of by Daniel and and talked about ad nousium by Jesus and his disciples. That kingdom was to began in the 1st century (that generation) according to scripture and a resurrection of saints and martyrs was also to take place during that time leaving post 1st century persons to look forward to the resurrection spoken of by Jesus in John 5:28-29 and Paul in Acts 24. (I guess I'm a quazi futurist after all).
    Interesting approach. I certainly agree that the "overwhelming majority of prophesy found fulfillment by the mid to late 1st century" but I don't see how you could separate out the "bits and pieces" that are yet future from all those others that have been fulfilled. Have you (or someone else on the net) written about this view you advocate?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Interesting approach. I certainly agree that the "overwhelming majority of prophesy found fulfillment by the mid to late 1st century" but I don't see how you could separate out the "bits and pieces" that are yet future from all those others that have been fulfilled. Have you (or someone else on the net) written about this view you advocate?
    I have pieced together some thought but they are by no means as organized as I'd like for them to be. I posted info from a site in another thread from a website where the writer share SOME very simular views that he has actually organized well. He is a bit long winded, but makes his points well. Many I agree with, some I oppose. Here is a link that best suites our discussion. I will compile my info shortly to post as well seeing as I have most on old fashioned paper and not on the web as of yet. I need to start a site so my wife can get off my case about all the papers and founders causing so much "unnecessary clutter."

    http://www.biblepages.web.surftown.se/eg04c.htm
    Last edited by throwback; 05-25-2011 at 03:59 PM.

  8. #28
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    There is a good explaination

    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post

    This is very simple stuff. Why did you cop such a rude attitude with me?

    As I said, I would be happy to answer any questions, but you need to cooperate enough so I can know where to start. Did you read the introductory material or not?
    Ram, This devilish spirit jumps out of me very seldom. I have worked hard and prayed a lot more times for this thorn to be removed than ole Paul did. LOL ... Many have been removed from me by that method, and there are many more yet to be removed, so my loving God will remove it, if I keep trying.

    It is a spirit of anger, that is taking a life time to get under control

    See, if you are going to be a credible witness for a loving God, a loving God that I imagine, then you have portray & live in that same kind of love towards all your brothers. That is so we can recognize each others spirit of love, because if we don't love our brother, then Jesus said you are still in death.

    Ram, please forgive me for copping the attitude as I became angry at some remarks. While I am in this Confession Boothe, I also said unkind, unloving remarks to Didymus, so also please forgive me Didymus. An explanation as to why the devilish spirit jumped out is not important, it is simply because occurs very seldom, but the fact that it remains, is the importance to me...


    Trying to stay in His Love, that I imagine, Chas.
    Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD:

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charles Wade View Post
    Ram, This devilish spirit jumps out of me very seldom. I have worked hard and prayed a lot more times for this thorn to be removed than ole Paul did. LOL ... Many have been removed from me by that method, and there are many more yet to be removed, so my loving God will remove it, if I keep trying.

    It is a spirit of anger, that is taking a life time to get under control

    See, if you are going to be a credible witness for a loving God, a loving God that I imagine, then you have portray & live in that same kind of love towards all your brothers. That is so we can recognize each others spirit of love, because if we don't love our brother, then Jesus said you are still in death.

    Ram, please forgive me for copping the attitude as I became angry at some remarks. While I am in this Confession Boothe, I also said unkind, unloving remarks to Didymus, so also please forgive me Didymus. An explanation as to why the devilish spirit jumped out is not important, it is simply because occurs very seldom, but the fact that it remains, is the importance to me...


    Trying to stay in His Love, that I imagine, Chas.
    Hey there Chaz,

    No problem bro. No problem at all. I think the most important thing to remember about internet forums is that there is no "tone of voice" so the "tone" that we hear in our heads while reading mostly comes from our own heads! Of course, sometimes we make mistakes or write without thinking or when frustrated or angry and we use words that are inflammatory. If I've done that, I'm most sincerely sorry.

    Now in answer to your original question: The Bible Wheel reveals an unsuspected unity amongst the 66 books and the 22 Hebrew letters. It indicates that "something supernatural" is going on in the Bible. If you remove a book, the pattern is destroyed. If you add a book, the pattern is destroyed. If you rearrange any of the 66 books, the pattern is destroyed. If you group the books according to their genre (i.e. Torah, OT History, Wisdom Books, Major Prophets, Minor Prophets, NT History, and Epistles) they form the tri-radiant halo used since ancient times to represent the Deity of Christ in Christian Iconography. The themes of the three books on each Spoke are integrated with each other and cohere with the symbolic meaning of the corresponding Hebrew letter. And so on ... it required a 412 page book just to cover the basics. It is truly an amazing study. Hope that helps.

    All the best,

    Richard
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

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