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  1. #1
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    The Religion of Christianity of Today & their Slick Doctrines

    Mr Kangaroo Jack, it is always reassuring when kindred minds meet. I now understand I have held some of the Preterist views, and have tried to argue one of them with the "Strange Birds" of futurist rapture believers, of which I thought I was of their flock.

    KJ, very seldom do I get to agree with all points like in your post here. Tough ones to apprehend in my opinion. The doctrine that I find that is the most necessary for a preterist, is the doctrine of the resurrection is past.... Would you agree to that or do you think there are tougher doctrines for a futurist to understand?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangaroo Jack View Post
    Hey CW,
    The Sadducees denied the resurrection of the dead because they were annihilationists. They denied that the spirit continued to live on after death.

    No Preterist I am aware of denies that the spirit continues to live on after death.

    Preterists differ with the futurists on the nature of the resurrection. For most Futurists it is the body of flesh that will be raised. This is not biblical at all.

    Before Christ accomplished the atonement men had to go down to Sheol to sleep after they died. They were not annihilated as the Sadducees taught. They "slept" which is not annihilation. They had to go down to Sheol
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangaroo Jack View Post
    Hey CW,

    The Sadducees denied the resurrection of the dead because they were annihilationists. They denied that the spirit continued to live on after death. No Preterist I am aware of denies that the spirit continues to live on after death.

    Preterists differ with the futurists on the nature of the resurrection. For most Futurists it is the body of flesh that will be raised. This is not biblical at all.

    Before Christ accomplished the atonement men had to go down to sheol to sleep after they died. They were not annihilated as the Sadducees taught. They "slept" which is not annihilation. They had to go down to sheol because Christ had not yet reconciled them to God. But after Christ accomplished the atonement they were raised up from sheol to their bodies from heaven. This is the resurrection.

    The resurrection therefore is past. All God's people who live after the resurrection are "caught up" when they die to their bodies from heaven. They don't go down to sheol now. Sheol has been destroyed.


    After they are caught up to their bodies from heaven their bodies of flesh will be recycled here on earth.

    KJ
    because Christ had not yet reconciled them to God. But after Christ accomplished the atonement they were raised up from sheol to their bodies from heaven. This is the resurrection.

    The resurrection therefore is past. All God's people who live after the resurrection are "caught up" when they die to their bodies from heaven. They don't go down to sheol now. Sheol has been destroyed.

    After they are caught up to their bodies from heaven their bodies of flesh will be recycled here on earth.

    KJ
    I would like to discuss this Doctrine of the past resurrection to see if we both have the same understanding ? My rapture buddies, just can't seem to conceive the doctrine..
    So my next post will be this very short use of scriptures that I have used to explain why I hold this view and see if we are on the same track. Thx Chas.
    Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD:

  2. #2
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    The resuurection is past?

    KJack. I supposed you would of agreed to see if we both have the same understanding of How the spirit no longer sleeps or is in Sheol & that the resurrection is past.
    I now think that the post is posted over for the lack of places to discuss various subjects are covered by the starting of new threads on the central hub.
    So I address this to any on this forum, that cares to reply....Leaves me curious as to why I don't get refuted by all you preterists here.

    ROMANS Chapter six is the key that needs to be turned to see & understand the 'First Resurrection'...... with an understanding of Paul's teachings to what happens to the spirit of the bodies that fall asleep in Christ. I think you pretty well have Romans six down to understand that the spirit does not die and we go to the Kingdom when our bodies die...All of Romans six also shows the resurrection is past. I think possibly we will agree on these scriptures literal & spiritual meaning. If we disagree on any, lets discuss them . Just make any remarks you feel like to the way I see these verses..but I suppose we are close if not in agreement on these meanings.

    1. Romans 6:5 Therefore we have been buried with him through baptism into death, in order that just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too may live a new life. For if we have become united with him in the likeness of his death, we will certainly also be united in the likeness of his resurrection.
    Does this scripture bolster my spiritual view of being baptized into His death and we have become united with Christ so we spiritually rose with on His day of resurrection?


    2. Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, even though we were dead in transgressions, made us alive together with Christ and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, Can you agree that Paul was speaking of the first resurrection, the one that is past, so therefore the saints after Jesus resurrection are made alive together with Christ @ that moment ? So therefore he raised up & seated us with him with Him in the heavenly realms in with Christ Jesus? Spiritually meaning of course.

    3. John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead , yet shall he live: and the one who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?' Can you agree that when Jesus answers Lazarus sister Martha question when Jesus said this in the last line: and the one who lives and believes in me will never die. That He is actually talking about the ones who that after His resurrection of all who believe in Him will not face death, only the body dies and the spirit goes to be with Christ?

    4. John 5:24 'I tell you the solemn truth, the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, but has crossed over from death to life. Now can you agree that Jesus answer meant this : That after my resurrection, Sheol is past, the resurrection is past, and death has passed, to all that believe and the ones that die after my resurrection, do not die but has crossed over from death and come to be with me immediately?

    5. Matthew 27:52 And tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had died were raised. I don't use the verse that follows this because it was added and in parenthesis. I feel sure a scribe added verse 53 to try to show a bodily resurrection . This one needs no explanation. This shows for certain that the resurrection is past to me,but my futurist friends are not easy to convince that Jesus taught that after His resurrection we then go to be with Him in the Kingdom.

    There are many verses I used to try to bolster my perspective that the spirit continues & the resurrection is past with my full blown futurist friends. I am wondering if we are eye to eye, spirit to spirit on these scriptures meaning?
    Thx...Chas.
    Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD:

  3. #3
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    Charles Wade

    Matthew 27:52 And tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had died were raised

    . I don't use the verse that follows this because it was added and in parenthesis. I feel sure a scribe added verse 53 to try to show a bodily resurrection . This one needs no explanation. This shows for certain that the resurrection is past to me,but my futurist friends are not easy to convince that Jesus taught that after His resurrection we then go to be with Him in the Kingdom.
    Matt.27:
    51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

    52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

    53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

    54Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.



    I believe that you missed the point of what is being said in this timeline. For you see... Jesus Was Still on The Cross at the time of His Resurrection . This Was Not His Bodily Resurrection that was to happen after three Days and Three nights. This was His Spiritual Resurrection back to Father God.... Jesus Fully explained that his Raising up himself as the bodily resurrection would be as The Sign of Jonas to PROVE that He is God... Do you understand that the 'Sign of Jonas' was not only the three day and three night of being in the belly of the gret fish, but also the 40days of proclaiming Judgment on Ninevah until its' distruction or Salvation through repentence. Jerusalem/Israel were given 40years (one Generation) to repent or be destroyed.... (we know the outcome of that).


    There are several different types of Resurrction..... Jesus used at least two in the span of 4 days......
    Brother Les

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Les View Post
    Matt.27:
    51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

    52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

    53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

    54Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.



    I believe that you missed the point of what is being said in this timeline. For you see... Jesus Was Still on The Cross at the time of His Resurrection . This Was Not His Bodily Resurrection that was to happen after three Days and Three nights. This was His Spiritual Resurrection back to Father God.... Jesus Fully explained that his Raising up himself as the bodily resurrection would be as The Sign of Jonas to PROVE that He is God... Do you understand that the 'Sign of Jonas' was not only the three day and three night of being in the belly of the great fish, but also the 40days of proclaiming Judgment on Ninevah until its' distruction or Salvation through repentence. Jerusalem/Israel were given 40years (one Generation) to repent or be destroyed.... (we know the outcome of that).


    There are several different types of Resurrection..... Jesus used at least two in the span of 4 days......

    I have to agree that you are correct and I missed the time line issue.

    1. If Jesus taught Martha & His disciples that immediately after death their spirits will go into the Kingdom to be with Him, then also His spirit went to the Father immediately after death on the cross.. He crossed from death to eternal life, just as He told Martha that if we believe in Him, we will never die.

    2.The points you bring up seems very valid as to the spiritual resurrection as He went in the Spirit to preach to the spirits imprisoned.

    3. Three gospels against Johns version of the , I have not ye been to the Father so don't touch me is outweighed by the other three gospels.

    So Brother Les, it looks like you have a very good point and thanks for the insight.
    Other than me missing this time line in the spiritual resurrection and His bodily resurrection..

    Question 1..Is there anything else you see that I may have overlooked with the other four scriptures trying to bolster my view?

    I imagine the preterists use these verses also to show Jesus was speaking of life continues after death, with belief in Him like he told Martha: "and the one who lives and believes in me will never die".

    Jesus said this to his disciples: "the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, but has crossed over from death to life".

    These verses are also crucial to show that this resurrection is past as Paul explains in Romans six, so it has two purposes to bolster my view. Spirits no longer face Sheol because you cross over death into eternal life and when the body dies then we go immediately into the Kingdom.

    Question 2.So, If I have this correct, I guess we see eye to eye on these literal and spiritual meanings of the first four examples? The time line issue I agree with you & thanks for the enlightenment. I can concede to your view because the evidence is heavily in your favor of a spiritual resurrection upon Jesus death.

    Thanks Brother Les, let me know. I have to take this slowly because I am trying to see if I can comprehend the view of preterists.

    Question 3. Can you agree a good understanding of Romans six is very useful to understand your link you sent me too...."The existence of Two Worlds".... Chas
    Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD:

  5. #5
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    Originally Posted by Brother Les
    Matt.27:
    51And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;

    52And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

    53And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

    54Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.



    I believe that you missed the point of what is being said in this timeline. For you see... Jesus Was Still on The Cross at the time of His Resurrection . This Was Not His Bodily Resurrection that was to happen after three Days and Three nights. This was His Spiritual Resurrection back to Father God.... Jesus Fully explained that his Raising up himself as the bodily resurrection would be as The Sign of Jonas to PROVE that He is God... Do you understand that the 'Sign of Jonas' was not only the three day and three night of being in the belly of the great fish, but also the 40days of proclaiming Judgment on Ninevah until its' distruction or Salvation through repentence. Jerusalem/Israel were given 40years (one Generation) to repent or be destroyed.... (we know the outcome of that).


    There are several different types of Resurrection..... Jesus used at least two in the span of 4 days......

    Charles Wade
    I have to agree that you are correct and I missed the time line issue.

    1. If Jesus taught Martha & His disciples that immediately after death their spirits will go into the Kingdom to be with Him, then also His spirit went to the Father immediately after death on the cross.. He crossed from death to eternal life, just as He told Martha that if we believe in Him, we will never die.

    2.The points you bring up seems very valid as to the spiritual resurrection as He went in the Spirit to preach to the spirits imprisoned.

    3. Three gospels against Johns version of the , I have not ye been to the Father so don't touch me is outweighed by the other three gospels.

    So Brother Les, it looks like you have a very good point and thanks for the insight.
    Other than me missing this time line in the spiritual resurrection and His bodily resurrection..

    Question 1..Is there anything else you see that I may have overlooked with the other four scriptures trying to bolster my view?

    I imagine the preterists use these verses also to show Jesus was speaking of life continues after death, with belief in Him like he told Martha: "and the one who lives and believes in me will never die".

    Jesus said this to his disciples: "the one who hears my message and believes the one who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned, but has crossed over from death to life".

    These verses are also crucial to show that this resurrection is past as Paul explains in Romans six, so it has two purposes to bolster my view. Spirits no longer face Sheol because you cross over death into eternal life and when the body dies then we go immediately into the Kingdom.

    Question 2.So, If I have this correct, I guess we see eye to eye on these literal and spiritual meanings of the first four examples? The time line issue I agree with you & thanks for the enlightenment. I can concede to your view because the evidence is heavily in your favor of a spiritual resurrection upon Jesus death.

    Thanks Brother Les, let me know. I have to take this slowly because I am trying to see if I can comprehend the view of preterists.

    Question 3. Can you agree a good understanding of Romans six is very useful to understand your link you sent me too...."The existence of Two Worlds".... Chas
    __________________
    Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD:
    Charles, I hope to get to all of your questions, but it seems that these threads sometimes get off on a lot of rabbit trails, like the one that I am going on now.

    CW
    1. If Jesus taught Martha & His disciples that immediately after death their spirits will go into the Kingdom to be with Him, then also His spirit went to the Father immediately after death on the cross.. He crossed from death to eternal life, just as He told Martha that if we believe in Him, we will never die.
    Can I go with what you have said here, first? What did Jesus and the Apostles preach? Remember how it always seemed that the Apostle Paul always saying that he had recieved Salvation, but was Still looking forward to Salvation. We assumed that it was His Death that would acomplish this. It is called the 'I have, but not yet'.... Remember how Martha said that (John 11:24) she would see her brother Lazuras again on The Last Day at The Resurrection (The Last Day was not The Cross). What is this 'Last Day', when the dead in Christ are resurrected (to Stand up) and then after, each in his own order. It is Judgement Day. Judgement of What? This is the Day that the Judge (Jesus) lays Judgement on The Terms (Blessings and Curses) of the Mosaic Covenant Marriage Contract. The Judgement of Life AND Death were part of that Marriage Contract. The Hebrew writer in the book of Hebrew stated and as long as the Tabernacle (Temple) is standing It (the law and The Prophets) has Standing.

    Hebrews 9: 8The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

    9Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;


    In verse 9 it says 'for the time then present', meaning when he wrote his (Hebrew) letter.

    No one went to the Holy of Holies (the abode of God The Father) as long as the Temple stood. Death still reined until it came down.

    We call Jesus our High Priest, but He was not born into a Priestly Tribe. How did He become The High Priest? We are told it is because 'The Law' was changed.... We must also remember that with the earthly Temple, 'the People' did not know that their sacrifices were accepted by God until the (earthly) High Priest Came Out of The Temple and the 'Judgements' upon the People were rolled over for another year. In like manor, The People did not really know the Father God had accepted the Sacrifice On The Cross UNTIL The High Priest, Judge, Savior, Counselor, GOD the Son, Came out of the Holy of Holies and did His duty in All of His capacities.

    Some time I may be able to flesh this out for you about this transition period, but note that it follows the 'types' (vs anti-types) of the first Passover and the 40 years of wondering in the wilderness. When Joshua (after the 40 year treke) took the 'Children' (of those who went into the wilderness) into the Promised Land, God said
    Joshua 5:
    8And it came to pass, when they had done circumcising all the people, that they abode in their places in the camp, till they were whole.
    9And the LORD said unto Joshua, This day have I rolled away the reproach of Egypt from off you. Wherefore the name of the place is called Gilgal unto this day.

    The 'Reproach of Egypt' (?) after 40 years....? Leaping forward to The Cross (AD30) and the Holocaust (AD70) we can see when the 'Reproach' of Egypt/Sodom/babylon/Jerusalom were lifted off 'The People', by Judgment of Destruction OR Judgement of Marriage....


    Something to think about
    Last edited by Brother Les; 05-26-2011 at 10:01 AM.
    Brother Les

  6. #6
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    Talking

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Les View Post
    Charles, I hope to get to all of your questions, but it seems that these threads sometimes get off on a lot of rabbit trails, like the one that I am going on now.
    No one went to the Holy of Holies (the abode of God The Father) as long as the Temple stood. Death still reined until it came down.

    We call Jesus our High Priest, but He was not born into a Priestly Tribe. How did He become The High Priest? We are told it is because 'The Law' was changed.... We must also remember that with the earthly Temple, 'the People' did not know that their sacrifices were accepted by God until the (earthly) High Priest Came Out of The Temple and the 'Judgements' upon the People were rolled over for another year. In like manor, The People did not really know the Father God had accepted the Sacrifice On The Cross UNTIL The High Priest, Judge, Savior, Counselor, GOD the Son, Came out of the Holy of Holies and did His duty in All of His capacities.
    [/COLOR]


    Something to think about
    Thank you bro Les. I see how you brought Maratha's statement of seeing her Brother Lazarus at the last day or day of judgment into the theme and Jona & the whale, 40 years in the wilderness and 2 resurrections in 4 days ect....All a good lesson, thanks I see your points clearly



    My question I have revised for more simplicity.I think I am done editing. LOL

    1. If Jesus taught Martha & His disciples that after death their spirits will go into the Kingdom to be with Him, They will cross from death to eternal life, just as He told Martha, that those that live and believe in Him, " will never die".



    My question is not of a time line.....My question can be answered also with Yes or No....It is whether Jesus taught this to Martha & His disciples......THE TIME LINE NO LONGER APPLIES to the revised question ...the time line is taken out by me by me omitting THE sentence. BTW your rabbit was very interesting & I do see your point clearly, as you say "in the flesh" & I do ponder such things and I will try to make my questions more direct.Thanks chas.
    Last edited by Charles Wade; 05-26-2011 at 09:10 PM.
    Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD:

  7. #7
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    My question I have revised for more simplicity.I think I am done editing. LOL

    1. If Jesus taught Martha & His disciples that after death their spirits will go into the Kingdom to be with Him, They will cross from death to eternal life, just as He told Martha, that those that live and believe in Him, " will never die".



    My question is not of a time line.....My question can be answered also with Yes or No....It is whether Jesus taught this to Martha & His disciples......THE TIME LINE NO LONGER APPLIES to the revised question ...the time line is taken out by me by me omitting THE sentence. BTW your rabbit was very interesting & I do see your point clearly, as you say "in the flesh" & I do ponder such things and I will try to make my questions more direct.Thanks chas.

    Martha 'died' when she believed in Jesus and she was given at that time eternal Life. Martha was already 'in The Kingdom'.

    John 11:
    23Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

    24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

    25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

    26And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

    27She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

    they would All 'rise' on the 'Last Day'.
    Last edited by Brother Les; 05-27-2011 at 09:09 AM.
    Brother Les

  8. #8
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    Charles Wade
    The resuurection is past?

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    KJack. I supposed you would of agreed to see if we both have the same understanding of How the spirit no longer sleeps or is in Sheol & that the resurrection is past.
    I now think that the post is posted over for the lack of places to discuss various subjects are covered by the starting of new threads on the central hub.
    So I address this to any on this forum, that cares to reply....Leaves me curious as to why I don't get refuted by all you preterists here.
    http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/tra...tion_sec04.htm

    http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/tra...pians/3_11.htm

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=6Do7TcYiyII
    Brother Les

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    Dear Rose

    Dear Rose, It has been a short, but wonderful and enlightening Journey...Vaya Con Dios on your journey also. I will read your blog and watch your Journey...Love peace Light, to you Lady and with it I hope you have much Joy...when that is missing you are off the lit path...Ram can't even argue that one. But he will . with that ole long barrel sharps..tee he ...
    I have not even opened your link yet Bro Les...I used to study their material for years by snail mail Very good stuff, especially for an Apostle Paul student, and shows the "Creator of all", his loving grace......yep, and only forgotten what was suppose to stay behind....Yep, over 25 years ago....so Brother I know before I open it, but you can bet I will open it...... I had a post on my word pad finished just in case you answered...That is why I edited my last post, after I had posted it...did maybe 10 edits , and I am sure you seen how I edited it...... Seems like sometimes I hit that submit button to quick....before a revealing happens, edit by edit by edit & then the revelation appears....thanks I owe it to you...U had to to write it so I could see it.

    I truly go no where these days unless I am led.And they are fun journeys,and always a reward is waiting.....

    I now know why I was led here to this site. I want to thank all you preterits for helping... You will not understand how much this quick study of another flock of birds paid me in spiritual truth & I thank you for being the helping tool for me to receive my walking papers..... The information I obtained here could have only been gained by listening with an open mind to a full blow Preterist cable of arguing their points with scripture. I couldn't even spell preterits when I came here.lol
    You preterist hold one good key. I had to find it....An explanation I have never seen/heard in the flesh therefore allow the spirit to discern the truth..

    I used that key and opened the parable of Jesus true meaning of This Generation & I thank you Lord Jesus for the light. This was by revelation of my Lord & Savior Jesus Christ and only useful to a futurist with a living faith.

    The Harold Camping world wide experience was a trip for the world...A trip that sent many Americans on such flesh eating frenzy that many stepped out from behind of their cloak of of disguise.

    Evidently..... I did not leave my flock of Birds to roost here, & I have only flown with this flock a short time......., and I am the strange bird here.....I will now return close to my own flock, even tho they don't really except me..... I might fly by and check, but my hope is that my postings days are now over.

    I thank you Ram & Rose and all....I now know I am a partial preterist, as to some degree of their doctrines....

    As the cowboys wearing White Hats ride off into the sunset with a so[/I][/B]ng in there heart,they love to share them... Also will I...This one should explain a lot....
    I love you my brothers and I can see you by how bright your lights shine....
    like ole Moe Bandy says here....."So this looks like the end my friend, because I gonna keep this Jesus for my own" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VyjSTWFCvjg All will get drift of this song

    In His Love,Chas.
    Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD:

  10. #10
    There a many verses written here about 'sleeping and waking..dead and alive'

    I will just write what I have in my mind at this moment. In the Old Testatment, it speaks of a Time when people did not have the Spirit so, of course, things spoken back in the old Laws will be different now in the New Laws. Those people had to go to a building to speak to God after He would arrrive and enter in the gate in a 'brightness of light' (in His Glory).

    Now we have a Spiritual connection to Him (if one chooses) so it may be different in many cases. Jesus spoke of 'death' in it's natural form and it's spiritual form. There are some who believe that when one dies, they are in a place of rest whilst some believe the spirit goes straight to God. Jesus confirmed the latter when He spoke to the man being crucified with Him..ie.. He spoke to him of 'being in paradise with Him' that very night. God has also made a statement..'STAY AWAKE' and speaks of those that slumber..which is a Spiritual message. He also makes a statement to the man who wanted to go to a funeral when Jesus was on earth..'Let the dead bury their dead..you follow Me'. This speaks of people that are dead in the spirit also. Eve was named 'mother of all living'. Does that mean that those who have already died are 'cut off' from that statement?? No.

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