Original Writings, Non-original Audience

[Twospirits]

Kangaroo Jack wrote,

Nice try but Hebrews says that the elementary doctrines of Christ were done away and it was written BEFORE ad70. Again, the Hebrew Christians were NOT in the child stage of God's covenant as you suggest. They were in the adult stage of God's redemptive program but they were going backwards to the elementary doctrines of Christ which was the old covenant baby stage. The text explicitly says that by holding on to the elementary doctrines they were "falling away" and that they were "crucifying the Son of God again and putting him to an open shame."

There are many among Futurism who adhere to the Paul only view. Paul was administrator of the new covenant through Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 3:6). Therefore, only Paul applies today.

I asked a simple question which is: Do you or do you not believe that the Old and New Covenant scriptures are Holy Inspired post 70 A.D.? That is to mean still applicable to the body Christ. A simple yes or no will do. (edit: Not speaking of "covenants" here, but speaking of the scriptures being Holy Inspired).

God bless---Twospirits

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

2 Tim. 3:16, “ALL GRAPHE is given by inspiration of God, and (is) profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.”

2 Peter 1:20-21, “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the GRAPHE is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old (any) time by the will of man; but holy men of God spake (as they were) moved by the Holy Ghost.”

The word ANY is not here. Your adding your interpretation to the text. The apostles did not prophecy specifically beyond the end of 70 Ad except to confirm the continuation of the body. Their writings were explanations and interpretations and applications of the fulfillment of the OT prophecies and the extended application to all peoples... and of the coming judgments within that generation. Since they are of no 'private' interpretation, we also can research the scriptures and with the aid of Christ and the confirmation of the apostles come to the same understanding as they did in the first century.

2 Peter 3:16. As also in all [his] EPISTOLES, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest , as [they do] also the other GRAPHES, unto their own destruction.

Yes, ALL Christ's teachings, ALL the Old and New Testament prophet's teachings are given for all generations of those who are a part of the body of Christ as 2 Peter 1:20-21 and 2 Tim. 3:16 tell us. The Inspired Word tells us it is not an assumption on my part as K. Jack asserts, but a Biblical fact.

God bless---Twospirits

In some of Christ's teachings he spoke specifically to the Pharisees, whom he knew would reject him and who were under their own laws and who came to him with trick questions.

Although I'm not following all that KJ is saying word for word, few of us always agree every perspective at all times.

At the time of Paul and Peters writings, the cannon of the NT was not completed. Paul was referring to the OT prophets GRAPHE as 'inspired'.

I do believe Paul and Peters interpretations, understandings of those writings were infallible, as were their letters and instructions to their original first century intercovenantal audience. But they are not 'inspired' and 'God Breathed' or specifically given for reproof, correction or authoritative in training in righteousness by law Faith in the same manner that the OT prophets were inspired or in the same authoritativeness of Jesus words and teachings, being spoken as the very words of God, from Deut 18.

2 Peter 3:16. As also in all [his] EPISTOLES speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest , as [they do] also the other GRAPHES, unto their own destruction.

The verbal/plenary crowd makes an emphasis that Peter wrote that some twist Pauls writings as they do the other scriptures thus equating Pauls writings as inspired and 'god breathed'. That is not the intent of the context of 2 Peter 3:16. The emphasis is that there are some who were taking Paul's letters and misunderstanding and twisting their words against their original intent like they did the other scriptures of the OT. There is no intended equivalent of Pauls letters and the OT 'Graphe'.

In the NT Graphe ALWAYS refers to the OT scriptures and epistolē NEVER does. Epistle refers to letters in general weather from an apostle or otherwise. Some letters of the apostles are not included in the cannon, but referred to in the ones that are.

2 Tim 3:16 uses the words Graphe, not apostolic Epistole.

I know this goes against the statements of faiths [indoctrinations] of bible colleges and some church doctrinal statements, but that is their error, not mine, and is part of the source of some dispensational, futurist errors.

This emphasis of equating the epistles as 'god breathed' may also have begun as a result of from roman inquisition and pressure to present an explanation of the beliefs of the church in a systematized and categorized way in a manner similar to roman law.

Many an error would have been generated by this approach including interpreting the epistles in a futurist manner, rather than implicate the Roman empire as being under control of the Almighty for his purposes in the first century and the end of their domain, power and authority.

[Twospirits]

EndtimesDeut32/70AD wrote,

I do believe Paul and Peters interpretations, understandings of those writings were infallible, as were their letters and instructions to their original first century intercovenantal audience. But they are not 'inspired' and 'God Breathed' or specifically given for reproof, correction or authoritative in training in righteousness by law Faith in the same manner that the OT prophets were inspired or in the same authoritativeness of Jesus words and teachings, being spoken as the very words of God, from Deut 18.

But the bottom line is they all (scriptures) come from one source---God (Holy Spirit) therefore, the writings by these NT men of God, the apostles, were all Inspired by God. As 2 Tim. 3:16 says, given 'for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.' And these all were given to the church, the body of Christ for those reasons stated, for all generations.

God bless---Twospirits

[TheForgiven]

I'm wondering what my futurists friends think of this passage:

Mathew 10:

16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. 17 But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. 18 You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; 20 for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
21 “Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

How is it that Futurists insist that the "Son of Man" has not yet come, when Matthew chapter 10, verses 16-23 clearly indicate a first century fulfillment. Notice verse 18 states that they (The Apostles) would be brought before rulers and kings for His Name's sake, and that THEY would be used to minister "TO THE GENTILES".

Now Futurists just love to transcend passages into our day. Well, just out of curiosity, who alive today is going to preach to "Gentiles"? Who alive today is going to go through all the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes? Has Israel not yet received the Gospel? Were the Apostles not yet finished in the first century, first preaching to the lost sheep of Israel? And keep in mind that it's Israeli that must go through all the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes, and not a Gentile. Paul states that the Jews would receive the message first, and then the Gentile. Was He wrong?

Knowing that obvious answers to these questions, when did the Son of Man come before they fulfilled their ministry throughout all the cities of Israel?

Joe

[EndtimesDeut32/70AD]

But the bottom line is they all (scriptures) come from one source---God (Holy Spirit) therefore, the writings by these NT men of God, the apostles, were all Inspired by God. As 2 Tim. 3:16 says, given “for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.” And these all were given to the church, the body of Christ for those reasons stated, for all generations.

God bless---Twospirits

Incorrect,
2 Tim 3:16 is not talking about the apostolic epistles. It is talking about the Graphe of the old testament scriptures.

The Apostles Epistles are not God breathed, though I believe the apostles interpretations and understandings are correct, infallible and to be relied upon. They are not prophetic and applicable to all generations of a temporal 'church age'. They confirm the doctrine of the everlasting covenant found in the Graphe of the prophets of and preceding the mosaic covenant, even to Abel and prophecy to the coming end and judgment of the mosaic covenant age. Acts 3:22-25.

The Epistles are not the subject of 2 Tim 3:16 specifically given for reproof, correction or training in righteousness by the law of justification by Faith in the same manner that the OT prophets were inspired. Nor are they the same authoritativeness of Jesus words and teachings, being spoken as the very words of God, from the authority of Deut 18. The apostles are not the source of new covenant doctrine but the confirmers of that doctrine of Christ and of God.

Jesus established and clarified the new law of faith and love of the Creator and the New Prophet and the apostles received His Love and teaching as from God himself and through the aid of the Spirit [and Christs explanations] interpreted the prophets and lived the 40 yr transitional intercovenantal time.

When it says that no scripture is of private interpretation, I believe that those enlightened and set free by the indwelling Holy Spirit will come to the same understanding as the apostles almost as if they themselves could have written the apostolic letters. But there is also much first century intercovenantal and sociological context and audience to be considered in their letters.

In addition: I believe that they generally speaking got the right books in the canon. For about 50-100 yrs Barnabus and a few others were included. But it seems good to have limited them to the apostles, Paul and other first hand disciples.

Again, I'll note:

2 Peter 3:16. As also in all [his] EPISTOLES speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest , as [they do] also the other GRAPHES, unto their own destruction.

The verbal/plenary crowd makes an emphasis that Peter wrote that some twist Pauls writings as they do the other scriptures thus equating Pauls writings as inspired and 'god breathed'. That is not the intent of the context of 2 Peter 3:16. The emphasis is that there are some who were taking Paul's letters and misunderstanding and twisting their words against their original intent like they did the other scriptures of the OT. There is no intended equivalent of Pauls letters and the OT 'Graphe'.

[CWH]

I'm wondering what my futurists friends think of this passage:

Mathew 10:

16 'Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. 17 But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. 18 You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; 20 for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
21 'Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

How is it that Futurists insist that the "Son of Man" has not yet come, when Matthew chapter 10, verses 16-23 clearly indicate a first century fulfillment. Notice verse 18 states that they (The Apostles) would be brought before rulers and kings for His Name's sake, and that THEY would be used to minister "TO THE GENTILES".

Now Futurists just love to transcend passages into our day. Well, just out of curiosity, who alive today is going to preach to "Gentiles"? Who alive today is going to go through all the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes? Has Israel not yet received the Gospel? Were the Apostles not yet finished in the first century, first preaching to the lost sheep of Israel? And keep in mind that it's Israeli that must go through all the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes, and not a Gentile. Paul states that the Jews would receive the message first, and then the Gentile. Was He wrong?

Knowing that obvious answers to these questions, when did the Son of Man come before they fulfilled their ministry throughout all the cities of Israel?

Joe

There is 2 ways to look at the passage Joe. You ask the question and I will answer you with a question:
When Jesus, the Son of Man came back on the 3rd day of His resurrection, have the apostles managed to spread the ministry throughout all the cities of Israel? The answer is No, they were still struggling.

Luke 24:13 Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles[a] from Jerusalem. 14 They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. 15 As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; 16 but they were kept from recognizing him.

Mathew 10:

16 'Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves. Therefore be wise as serpents and harmless as doves. 17 But beware of men, for they will deliver you up to councils and scourge you in their synagogues. 18 You will be brought before governors and kings for My sake, as a testimony to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; 20 for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you.
21 'Now brother will deliver up brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death. 22 And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved. 23 When they persecute you in this city, flee to another. For assuredly, I say to you, you will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

The whole passage pertain to this day as well as the 1st century. Even to this day the Gospel has not spread to everyone in the cities in Israel taking into consideration that Christians do not form a majority of the population of Israel, about 10%. Are Christians being persecuted today? Yes. Are families being broken up by Christianity today? Yes. Therefore, this passage in Matthew 10 pertains to us as well as in the 1st century.

Many Blessings.

[TheForgiven]

There is 2 ways to look at the passage Joe. You ask the question and I will answer you with a question:
When Jesus, the Son of Man came back on the 3rd day of His resurrection, have the apostles managed to spread the ministry throughout all the cities of Israel? The answer is No, they were still struggling.

Hmmmm? Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the text state, "you SHALL NOT have gone through all the cities of Israel when the Son of Man comes?" Doesn't this imply that they would not be completed?

Furthermore, do you know of any "Apostles" preaching to Israel right now? And most importantly, was it Paul who states that they (THE JEW FIRST) would be the first to partake in the Gospel, and THEN the Gentiles? Seeing that the Gentiles have long be administered the Gospels, did God forget the Jews? Or is this another "clock-stop" to the Gospel of the Jews, TO the Jews? It's like your suggesting that the Gospels started with the Jews, then left them to the Gentiles, and will one day return to the Jews. Two things wrong here; New biological Jews from the 12 Tribes exist for the Gospels to return to. And second, the New Testament doesn't teach that the Gospels would only reach some of the Jews, and the rest are ignored while the Gentiles partake and share of its blessings, only to have it returned to the Jews again in our day. This is called 21sts century false Prophesy; much like Harold Camping.

Luke 24:13 Now that same day two of them were going to a village called Emmaus, about seven miles[a] from Jerusalem. 14 They were talking with each other about everything that had happened. 15 As they talked and discussed these things with each other, Jesus himself came up and walked along with them; 16 but they were kept from recognizing him.




The whole passage pertain to this day as well as the 1st century. Even to this day the Gospel has not spread to everyone in the cities in Israel taking into consideration that Christians do not form a majority of the population of Israel, about 10%. Are Christians being persecuted today? Yes. Are families being broken up by Christianity today? Yes. Therefore, this passage in Matthew 10 pertains to us as well as in the 1st century.

Many Blessings.

[/QUOTE]

You can't be serious! You quote a passage of two who were kept from seeing Jesus (or perceiving Jesus) after His resurrection, to show that the Israeli's are still unable to see Jesus. And that Israel, while only making up about 10% percent of Christianity, have not yet completed their ministry?

Cheow! This isn't contextual interpretation. There are no Apostle today; only the first 12 and those whom they appointed, could be called Apostles, and most importantly, they were only Jewish. It was they who established Churches and ordained some to be Bishops, Deacons, etc. But the last of the Apostles, John, died in the first century, and ended the days of the Apostles.

I can't believe you are actually going to force-fit this simple little passage explaining the words of the Apostles, and transcend their commission into a distant future, as though the Gospel still needs to be preached to Israel.



I'd better stop right here because I think it's quite obvious your stretching very deep here....VERY deep into thick waters. But here's the best way to determine if your interpretation is right or wrong. Take a very good look at your interpretation, and see if matches the entire context of Matthew chapter 10 verses 16 to 23. Nothing in their says anything about Israel being blinded for 2000+ years, nor a time-span of 2000+ years for Apostles to preach the Gospels to Israel. That's absurd!

Joe

[Twospirits]

EndtimesDeut32/70AD wrote,

Incorrect,
2 Tim 3:16 is not talking about the apostolic epistles. It is talking about the Graphe of the old testament scriptures.

The Apostles Epistles are not God breathed, though I believe the apostles interpretations and understandings are correct, infallible and to be relied upon.

Call them what you will, they are Holy Inspired. You contradict yourself, you say you believe they are 'infallible,' therefore if 'infallible' they indeed are to be seen as the Holy Inspired Word of God, for no man is infallible.

They are not prophetic and applicable to all generations of a temporal 'church age'. They confirm the doctrine of the everlasting covenant found in the Graphe of the prophets of and preceding the mosaic covenant, even to Abel and prophecy to the coming end and judgment of the mosaic covenant age. Acts 3:22-25.

The NT, like the OT gives historical AND prophetic writings within them concerning God's salvation plan, and some have yet to be fulfilled. These writings were given to the body of Christ. The body of Christ is NOT a one generation body of believers; but a body of believers for all generations to the fulfillment of God's prophetic salvation plan.

God bless---Twospirits

[Kangaroo Jack]

I asked a simple question which is: Do you or do you not believe that the Old and New Covenant scriptures are Holy Inspired post 70 A.D.? That is to mean still applicable to the body Christ. A simple yes or no will do. (edit: Not speaking of "covenants" here, but speaking of the scriptures being Holy Inspired).

God bless---Twospirits

I answered you already. I said that I subscribe to the Paul only view. But I will answer it the way you want: Of course not! The old covenant scriptures do not apply today. It is a dumb question in my estimation. That they are inspired does not infer that they are timeless.

Let me ask you something. Revelation says that anyone who adds to the words of the prophecy of the book shall have added to him the plagues that are written therein. Futurist interpretation infers that this warning apply only to those who live during the time that the plagues are poured out. How can anyone not living when the plagues are poured out have them added to him? Therefore, the warning applies only to those who would see the plagues poured out.

Preterists try to no avail to give you Futurists a common sense approach to the scriptures and you just continue to bury your heads in the sand. Pay attention to what you read.

Again, the old covenant does not apply today. And not all scripture can apply to all generations.

KJ

[Richard Amiel McGough]

There are many among Futurism who adhere to the Paul only view. Paul was administrator of the new covenant through Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 3:6). Therefore, only Paul applies today.

KJ

But you're not a Futurist ... so how can you be of the "Paul only" view? Do you reject the epistles of Peter, James, and John as "applying" to modern Christians? If so, by what standard?