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  1. #1
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    Original Writings, Non-original Audience

    Not all original writings are for original audience; obviously, what Moses wrote during his time were not for the audience of his time but for the audience of Jesus time 1,500 years later:

    Mark 10:5
    “It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law,” Jesus replied.

    Mark 12:19
    “Teacher,” they said, “Moses wrote for us that if a man’s brother dies and leaves a wife but no children, the man must marry the widow and raise up offspring for his brother.

    John 1:45
    Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”

    John 5:46
    If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.Luke 24:44

    Luke:He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”


    Many Blessings.
    Last edited by CWH; 05-21-2011 at 07:49 PM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  2. #2
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    Very good points

    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Not all original writings are for original audience; obviously, what Moses wrote during his time were not for the audience of his time but for the audience of Jesus time 1,500 years later:

    Mark 10:5
    'It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law,' Jesus replied.

    Mark 12:19
    'Teacher,' they said, 'Moses wrote for us that if a man’s brother dies and leaves a wife but no children, the man must marry the widow and raise up offspring for his brother.

    John 1:45
    Philip found Nathanael and told him, 'We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.'

    John 5:46
    If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.Luke 24:44

    Luke:He said to them, 'This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.'


    Many Blessings.
    Very good CWH, let em refute that as to the relevance of times & audiences... You think the original audience expected it in their lifetime, probably so, but wrong again, and they probably didn't understand a word he said....like the ones Peter addressed in letter that thought he was giving them expectations of Jesus coming in their life time.
    Peace, & love,.chas
    Isa 1:18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD:

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Not all original writings are for original audience; obviously, what Moses wrote during his time were not for the audience of his time but for the audience of Jesus time 1,500 years later:

    Mark 10:5
    'It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law,' Jesus replied.

    Mark 12:19
    'Teacher,' they said, 'Moses wrote for us that if a man’s brother dies and leaves a wife but no children, the man must marry the widow and raise up offspring for his brother.

    John 1:45
    Philip found Nathanael and told him, 'We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.'

    John 5:46
    If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.Luke 24:44

    Luke:He said to them, 'This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.'


    Many Blessings.
    Moses gave the corporal covenant address. That has been lifted and shown to be not the way of life.

    2 Spirits called this the "ye principle"
    Here, Here[/URL] and Here are some discussion against the continuation of the corporal "ye" principle.

    Where did Moses talk about Jesus in the Law of Moses?
    1Thess 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    If you are oppressed and enslaved by religious law, you may have a tendency to oppress, enslave and attempt to lord over others who are free.

  4. #4
    Originally Posted by CWH View Post

    Not all original writings are for original audience; obviously, what Moses wrote during his time were not for the audience of his time but for the audience of Jesus time 1,500 years later:

    Mark 10:5
    'It was because your hearts were hard that Moses wrote you this law,' Jesus replied.

    Mark 12:19
    'Teacher,' they said, 'Moses wrote for us that if a man’s brother dies and leaves a wife but no children, the man must marry the widow and raise up offspring for his brother.

    John 1:45
    Philip found Nathanael and told him, 'We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.'

    John 5:46
    If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.Luke 24:44

    Luke:He said to them, 'This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.'

    Many Blessings.

    Moses gave the corporal covenant address. That has been lifted and shown to be not the way of life.

    2 Spirits called this the "ye principle"
    Here, Here[/URL] and Here are some discussion against the continuation of the corporal "ye" principle.

    Where did Moses talk about Jesus in the Law of Moses?
    The "Ye principle" is inherent throughout the Old and New Testament scriptures. The full explanation is given here: http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2128

    God bless---Twospirits
    "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).

  5. #5
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    Twospirits wrote:
    So we see that “all the things” Jesus (literally and through the Holy Spirit) taught the apostles, they were also to teach other disciples, the “called out of God,” the body of Christ, for all generations; beginning at Pentecost, unto the end of the age. In turn, the called out disciples of Christ who believed would also receive the Holy Spirit. So when we read the NT, we know the Living Word was not only written “for” that first generation body of Christ, though it was written “to” them first, but for future generations who would become a part of the body of Christ as well; unto the end of the age.
    Yet the author to the Hebrews told his audience to leave the "elementary doctrines" of Christ and to move on to perfection (Hebrews 6:1-6). Much of Christ's teachings had been abrogated before ad70.

    Furthermore, Jesus told His disciples that the Holy Spirit would guide them into all truth. This implies that they would speak and interpret and inscripturate INFFALLIBLY which clearly cannot apply beyond them.

    TS's assertion that Christ's teachings are for all generations is his unproven assumption.

    KJ

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    Not all original writings are for original audience; obviously, what Moses wrote during his time were not for the audience of his time but for the audience of Jesus time 1,500 years later:
    CWH,

    Show how this proves that a generation in the far distant future from Christ was to witness His coming. The occasion for Jesus' telling THEM the signs to look for arose from THEIR inquiries. THEY wanted to know for THEMSELVES what signs to look for. Are you suggesting that His disciples were asking for some generation in the indefinite future and not for themselves?

    What was the OCCASION my friend? Your statement above is nothing more than a smokescreen designed to get people to ignore the issues the disciples had. THEY asked Jesus togive THEM the signs to look for. So He gave THEM the signs to look for WITHOUT QUALIFICATIONS.

    KJ

  7. #7
    Kangaroo Jack wrote,

    Yet the author to the Hebrews told his audience to leave the "elementary doctrines" of Christ and to move on to perfection (Hebrews 6:1-6). Much of Christ's teachings had been abrogated before ad70.
    Jesus' teachings were 'abolished'? You misunderstand what the Hebrew writer's meaning was. He was telling them in the prior passages that they should have been 'mature' at that time rather they were still in the infancy stage (basic principles of doctrine), still needing milk (basic doctrinal principles of Christ). So he states in his letter 'lets now go on' (time to move on to maturity), NOT put aside, abrogate or abolish the principle doctrines of Christ!

    Furthermore, Jesus told His disciples that the Holy Spirit would guide them into all truth. This implies that they would speak and interpret and inscripturate INFFALLIBLY which clearly cannot apply beyond them.

    TS's assertion that Christ's teachings are for all generations is his unproven assumption.
    2 Tim. 3:16, 'ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and (is) profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.'

    2 Peter 1:20-21, 'Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old (any) time by the will of man; but holy men of God spake (as they were) moved by the Holy Ghost.'

    Yes, ALL Christ's teachings, ALL the Old and New Testament prophet's teachings are given for all generations of those who are a part of the body of Christ as 2 Peter 1:20-21 and 2 Tim. 3:16 tell us. The Inspired Word tells us it is not an assumption on my part as K. Jack asserts, but a Biblical fact.

    God bless---Twospirits
    "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).

  8. #8
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    TS wrote:
    Jesus' teachings were “abolished”? You misunderstand what the Hebrew writer's meaning was. He was telling them in the prior passages that they should have been “mature” at that time rather they were still in the infancy stage (basic principles of doctrine), still needing milk (basic doctrinal principles of Christ). So he states in his letter “lets now go on” (time to move on to maturity), NOT put aside, abrogate or abolish the principle doctrines of Christ!
    I understand Hebrews correctly. Paul said that they (Jews) were no longer children but sons.

    1 Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born[a] of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
    6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”
    The guardian that tutored the Jews when they were children was the Mosaic law. The book of Hebrews was written to Jewish believers who had been made sons but who were acting like children. They were still holding on to the elementary doctrines of Christ. They were in the mature stage but were acting like they were in the elementary stage.

    The elementary doctrines of Christ were the old Mosaic covenant. The context is about the abolition of that covenant.

    TS cited:
    2 Tim. 3:16, “ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and (is) profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.”
    TS misapplies Paul's statement to Timothy. Paul was talking about the old testament scriptures as they testified of Christ. Paul said that Timothy knew them as a child. Timothy did not have the Christ's teachings as a child. Therefore, Paul's statement to Timothy cannot be invoked as a proof text that the elementary doctrines of Christ still apply.

    Yes, ALL Christ's teachings, ALL the Old and New Testament prophet's teachings are given for all generations of those who are a part of the body of Christ as 2 Peter 1:20-21 and 2 Tim. 3:16 tell us.
    Nope! Christ preached conditional forgiveness. Christ told the Jews to pray, "Forgive us as we forgive." But Paul reversed it. He taught that forgiveness is now unconditional. He told God's new covenant people that they should forgive as they have been forgiven. In other words, Paul cancelled Christ's old covenant conditional forgiveness teaching and replaced it with his new covenant unconditional forgiveness doctrine.

    The old covenant people were forgiven because they forgave. New covenant people forgive because they have been forgiven.

    Those who teach that Christ's elementary doctrines apply today have not made a clean break from the old covenant.

    Christ's elementary doctrines have been cancelled just as surely as His conditional method of forgiveness has been cancelled.

    KJ
    Last edited by Kangaroo Jack; 05-22-2011 at 02:29 PM.

  9. #9
    TS wrote:
    Quote:
    Jesus' teachings were “abolished”? You misunderstand what the Hebrew writer's meaning was. He was telling them in the prior passages that they should have been “mature” at that time rather they were still in the infancy stage (basic principles of doctrine), still needing milk (basic doctrinal principles of Christ). So he states in his letter “lets now go on” (time to move on to maturity), NOT put aside, abrogate or abolish the principle doctrines of Christ!

    I understand Hebrews correctly. Paul said that they (Jews) were no longer children but sons.

    Quote:
    1 Now I say that the heir, as long as he is a child, does not differ at all from a slave, though he is master of all, 2 but is under guardians and stewards until the time appointed by the father. 3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born[a] of a woman, born under the law, 5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.
    6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, “Abba, Father!”

    The guardian that tutored the Jews when they were children was the Mosaic law. The book of Hebrews was written to Jewish believers who had been made sons but who were acting like children. They were still holding on to the elementary doctrines of Christ. The elementary doctrines of Christ were the old Mosaic covenant. The context is about the abolition of that covenant.

    TS cited:
    Quote:
    2 Tim. 3:16, “ALL scripture is given by inspiration of God, and (is) profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.”

    TS misapplies Paul's statement to Timothy. Paul was talking about the old testament scriptures as they testified of Christ. Paul said that Timothy knew them as a child. Timothy did not have the Christ's teachings as a child. Therefore, Paul's statement to Timothy cannot be invoked as a proof text that the elementary doctrines of Christ still apply.

    Quote:
    Yes, ALL Christ's teachings, ALL the Old and New Testament prophet's teachings are given for all generations of those who are a part of the body of Christ as 2 Peter 1:20-21 and 2 Tim. 3:16 tell us.

    Nope! Christ preached conditional forgiveness. Christ told the Jews to pray, "Forgive us as we forgive." But Paul reversed it. He taught that forgiveness is now unconditional. He told God's new covenant people that they should forgive as they have been forgiven. In other words, Paul cancelled Christ's old covenant conditional forgiveness teaching and replaced it with his new covenant unconditional forgiveness doctrine.

    The old covenant people were forgiven because they forgave. New covenant people forgive because they have been forgiven.

    Those who teach that Christ's elementary doctrines apply now have not made a clean break from the old covenant.

    Christ's elementary doctrines have been cancelled just as surely as His conditional method of forgiveness has been cancelled.
    So according to you (whether you realize it or not) the bottom line comes down to post 70 A.D. The NT&OT is no longer applicable, except as historical texts to the body Christ. The Old and New Testament Inspired texts were only Holy Inspired for that generation only in order to fulfill the prophecies. 2 Peter 1:20-21 and 2 Tim. 3:16 no longer apply, is that correct?

    God bless---Twospirits
    Last edited by Twospirits; 05-22-2011 at 03:23 PM.
    "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twospirits View Post
    So according to you (whether you realize it or not) the bottom line comes down to post 70 A.D. The NT&OT is no longer applicable, except as historical texts to the body Christ. The Old and New Testament Inspired texts were only Holy Inspired for that generation only in order to fulfill the prophecies. 2 Peter 1:20-21 and 2 Tim. 3:16 no longer apply, is that correct?

    God bless---Twospirits
    Nice try but Hebrews says that the elementary doctrines of Christ were done away and it was written BEFORE ad70. Again, the Hebrew Christians were NOT in the child stage of God's covenant as you suggest. They were in the adult stage of God's redemptive program but they were going backwards to the elementary doctrines of Christ which was the old covenant baby stage. The text explicitly says that by holding on to the elementary doctrines they were "falling away" and that they were "crucifying the Son of God again and putting him to an open shame."

    There are many among Futurism who adhere to the Paul only view. Paul was administrator of the new covenant through Jesus Christ (2 Cor. 3:6). Therefore, only Paul applies today.

    KJ

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