Why Caiaphas must have seen Christ's coming

**CWH** · 05-28-2011, 05:40 PM

Originally Posted by Kangaroo Jack

Joe said:
Joe,

Well said my friend! The Futurists are indeed doubters. I have said before that the Futurists do not walk in the faith that Abaham walked. Mad Mick got banned for his insults because I said this. Jesus CLEARLY said that the kingdom of God comes "without observation."

Hebrew 11 says, "Through faith we understand that the AGES were framed by the word of God." The "AGES" do not refer to the physical universe but to the works of God in redemptive history.

It is by faith that we see the kingdom.

Hebrews 2 says that all things have been put under Chrit's subjection but we "do not see" it with the mortal eye. We see all things under Christ's subjection with the eyes of faith.

Again, you stated things eloquently and have shown that Futurists are doubters just as the carnally minded Jews Jesus had to contend with.

THE FUTURISTS DO NOT WALK IN THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM!

KJ

Well, Preterists do not have faith in the Bible. They doubt about the Creation, they doubt Jesus will come back again, they doubt about the miracles of Jesus, they doubt if the Bible is God-inspired and written by men, they doubt if the world will ever be renewed, they doubt...... Which preterist, futurist, historist, idealist does not doubt? Funny, no one doubt if Christ really died on the cross.

BTW to clarify, Mad Mick was made Mad by someone and he was banned from this forum by his horrible insults, He is not a Christian but a Gnostic....may God blessed him

Many Blessings.

**TheForgiven** · 05-28-2011, 06:20 PM

Originally Posted by CWH

Well, Preterists do not have faith in the Bible. They doubt about the Creation, they doubt Jesus will come back again, they doubt about the miracles of Jesus, they doubt if the Bible is God-inspired and written by men, they doubt if the world will ever be renewed, they doubt...... Which preterist, futurist, historist, idealist does not doubt? Funny, no one doubt if Christ really died on the cross.

BTW to clarify, Mad Mick was made Mad by someone and he was banned from this forum by his horrible insults, He is not a Christian but a Gnostic....may God blessed him

Many Blessings.

Talk about a misrepresentation. I don't know a Preterist in the world that doubts about creation.

I'm assuming, of course, you mean a re-creation of the world into a perfect harmonious eternity where sinners will not exist. My question to you is, are you to be part of this world of perfection and sinless character? If you sin now, what makes you think you will inherit eternity on a new sinless earth if you can't even stop sinning now?

And we don't doubt the coming of Jesus; we embrace it everyday, as all that you see is a direct result of His coming. Who else do you believe is responsible for ensuring the continued success of the Church for more than 2000 years? The Church wasn't/isn't successful on its own, as though only man governs the Church. And we don't doubt the miracles of Jesus; we know He performed His miracles in the first century. Unless of course you mean the miraculous, sensationalist expectation of His return, with a tall figure seen high in the sky, warping at speeds so fast that not even the blinking of an eye is enough time to witness His return; yes you are correct, we doubt, rather we disbelieve this kind of dogma that is only taught by Futurists. And I don't know where you got the idea that Preterists doubt the word of God as though it were not God inspired. That's a false accusation against Preterism, and is a bold lie. Such a man filled with untruth; that is what you are.

As for the world being renewed, the blood of Jesus did just that. In ancient times, Gentiles were considered unclean. But as God's Holy word reads, "DO NOT CONSIDER UNCLEAN, WHAT I HAVE MADE CLEAN..." in reference to Peter being rebuked in a vision of the Gentiles.

Jesus purified the world through His blood, and renewed the earth with the knowledge of God all over creation, upon nations that are being delivered, from sun rise to sunset; from one new moon, to the next. As our Holy Father states, "as long as the earth abides, never again will I destroy all life as I have done, even though their minds sin from their youth...." We believe His promise never again to destroy all life (Genesis 8). It is you wacky Futurists who want God to destroy all life, so He would create a new world where you will no longer have to take responsibility for your continued sins. You guys have conjured up a perfect world as though you yourselves had no responsibility for its imperfections.

Joe

**Kangaroo Jack** · 05-28-2011, 07:20 PM

CWH wrote:

Well, Preterists do not have faith in the Bible.

Lie!

They doubt about the Creation,

Lie!

they doubt Jesus will come back again,

Lie!

they doubt about the miracles of Jesus,

Lie!

they doubt if the Bible is God-inspired and written by men,

Lie!

they doubt if the world will ever be renewed, they doubt...... Which preterist, futurist, historist, idealist does not doubt?

Lie!

KJ

**CWH** · 05-28-2011, 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by Kangaroo Jack

CWH wrote:
Lie!

Lie!

Lie!

Lie!

Lie!

Lie!

KJ

Who never lie in his life? .....You?
Doesn't come under the biblical category of lie:

1 John 2:22
Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.

1 John 1:10
If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

1 John 2:4
Whoever says, “I know him,” but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in that person.

1 John 4:20
Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen.

1 John 5:10
Whoever believes in the Son of God accepts this testimony. Whoever does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because they have not believed the testimony God has given about his Son.

Matthew 7:1
[ Judging Others ] “Do not judge, or you too will be judged.

Many Blessings.

**Twospirits** · 05-29-2011, 07:29 AM

TheForgiven wrote,

Quite the contrary. You rely on sight because nobody recorded Jesus flying high in the sky, or physically descending from the clouds and landing His foot on Mt. Olives.

Nobody recorded seeing Jesus in the sky in times past because he has yet to come. Now, where did I ever say he will plant his feet on the Mt. Of Olives? You're doing it again, you constantly apply me to the Dispy camp, KNOWING that its not true. Its a bold-faced lie and you continue to do this.

You reject the Church as His promised kingdom, and like the Jews, seek for another. You want Jesus to sit in a physical throne in geographical Israel, and will reject anything He has to establish unless it is physically established in modern day Israel.

This is a total misrepresentation of my position and you KNOW THIS! I've given you my position at least several times in the past, and posted it on this forum. You intentionally do this to make the readers think I am of the Dispy camp when I am not, in the hopes of discrediting me on this forum. Show me your 'evidence' of your accusation where it is said that 'I reject the church (true believers) as his promised kingdom.'

And finally, I've said this plenty of times before. There is no direct reference anywhere of Jesus returning to the earth in physical form to set up a kingdom other than what He has already established, and of what His Holy Saints spilled their internal organs to establish; the Holy Church of God.

Again a misrepresentation of my position. Show me where I have said that Jesus will return 'to set up a kingdom 'other' then what he has already established?'

And after you are dead, your name will not will be left as nothing more than a library of the false teachers who never came to understand His Prophesies. And because you reject the Church as His kingdom, this alone makes you a doubter. If you knew His kingdom, then you would know the Lord.

Since this accusation is false that I reject the church (true believers) as the Lord's kingdom, then the accusation that I am a doubter is also false.

In closing, in the 10 months or so that I've been posting on this forum, I have seen some flat-out lies from you in your posts constantly trying to discredit me on this forum, and this is but another one of them.

For the readers who don't know what position I hold, and to AGAIN set the record straight:

(http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...t=1733&page=15 page 15; post #146).

In short, the position I hold is similar to an Amil-futurist. I hold that there is no literal 1000 year reign with Christ on earth during that time. That this timely reign of Christ is 'heavenly' (Rev. 20:4-6), and occurs during the church age. Contrary to Amils who see the time as symbolic, I believe the 'time given' to be a literal length of time, though no man can know its exact beginning and end. This reign continues until—1Cor. 15:25., then Rev. 20:7,8,9; 1 Cor. 15:24 and 2 Peter 3:10-13 occurs.

I do not believe in an "individual" anti-christ, nor an individual false prophet who will deceive the world. I do not believe there is to be a rebuilt temple and re-instituted sacrifices in Jerusalem. Nor do I believe there is to be a great war where a third of mankind is destroyed, and two thirds of Jews perish. Where the remnant of the Jews will then turn to Christ. That is the whole nation of Israel turn to Christ. (Though I wish that were true!). Where then after these things are fulfilled, Christ comes to reign over the world in Jerusalem where animal sacrifices continue throughout the millennium. Where after the millennium Satan is loosed to again cause destruction on the earth, before the eternal state comes in. I reject those teachings.

Dispensationalists believe that the land Covenant of Abraham "From the River Euphrates to the River Egypt" was never fulfilled, but will be either shortly before Christ comes or in the millennial age. I disagree. The Land Covenant was fulfilled during the time of Joshua, if not certainly in the time of David and Solomon. I believe what Rev. 16:15 states will occur, 'Behold, I come as a thief (suddenly, quickly and unexpectedly). Blessed (is) he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.' In short it will be like the days of Noah (like today, they did 'their thing' (2 Peter 3:3-4)), The end of the age and the coming of Christ will come totally unexpectedly.

God bless---Twospirits

**TheForgiven** · 05-29-2011, 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by Twospirits

Nobody recorded seeing Jesus in the sky in times past because he has yet to come. Now, where did I ever say he will plant his feet on the Mt. Of Olives? You're doing it again, you constantly apply me to the Dispy camp, KNOWING that its not true. Its a bold-faced lie and you continue to do this.

This is a total misrepresentation of my position and you KNOW THIS! I've given you my position at least several times in the past, and posted it on this forum. You intentionally do this to make the readers think I am of the Dispy camp when I am not, in the hopes of discrediting me on this forum. Show me your 'evidence' of your accusation where it is said that 'I reject the church (true believers) as his promised kingdom.'

Again a misrepresentation of my position. Show me where I have said that Jesus will return 'to set up a kingdom 'other' then what he has already established?'

Since this accusation is false that I reject the church (true believers) as the Lord's kingdom, then the accusation that I am a doubter is also false.

In closing, in the 10 months or so that I've been posting on this forum, I have seen some flat-out lies from you in your posts constantly trying to discredit me on this forum, and this is but another one of them.

For the readers who don't know what position I hold, and to AGAIN set the record straight:

(http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...t=1733&page=15 page 15; post #146).

In short, the position I hold is similar to an Amil-futurist. I hold that there is no literal 1000 year reign with Christ on earth during that time. That this timely reign of Christ is 'heavenly' (Rev. 20:4-6), and occurs during the church age. Contrary to Amils who see the time as symbolic, I believe the 'time given' to be a literal length of time, though no man can know its exact beginning and end. This reign continues until—1Cor. 15:25., then Rev. 20:7,8,9; 1 Cor. 15:24 and 2 Peter 3:10-13 occurs.

I do not believe in an "individual" anti-christ, nor an individual false prophet who will deceive the world. I do not believe there is to be a rebuilt temple and re-instituted sacrifices in Jerusalem. Nor do I believe there is to be a great war where a third of mankind is destroyed, and two thirds of Jews perish. Where the remnant of the Jews will then turn to Christ. That is the whole nation of Israel turn to Christ. (Though I wish that were true!). Where then after these things are fulfilled, Christ comes to reign over the world in Jerusalem where animal sacrifices continue throughout the millennium. Where after the millennium Satan is loosed to again cause destruction on the earth, before the eternal state comes in. I reject those teachings.

Dispensationalists believe that the land Covenant of Abraham "From the River Euphrates to the River Egypt" was never fulfilled, but will be either shortly before Christ comes or in the millennial age. I disagree. The Land Covenant was fulfilled during the time of Joshua, if not certainly in the time of David and Solomon. I believe what Rev. 16:15 states will occur, 'Behold, I come as a thief (suddenly, quickly and unexpectedly). Blessed (is) he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.' In short it will be like the days of Noah (like today, they did 'their thing' (2 Peter 3:3-4)), The end of the age and the coming of Christ will come totally unexpectedly.

God bless---Twospirits

Then just what kind of Futurist are you? You believe that Jesus will come, per your interpretation of Acts chapter 1, and per your view, His coming must also be visible. Then if you're not part of the DISP camp, then what's the point? Where will He descend? You don't believe in the traditional Futurist position of Christ coming only after the Jews accept Him as the Messiah, then I must ask what His purpose of returning is, based on your view.

I've asked you before if you believed that the Church was the promised kingdom, and you stated that it wasn't. As soon as I find that post, I'll paste it again for others to see. This was not a lie on my part.

But at least we were able to read a summary of your entire Futurist position; this makes it easier for the others to see your position which obviously does not follow main-stream Futurism.

On a side note, since your position is relatively new, and not part of main-stream Christianity, then it's quite safe to assume that your position is incorrect. Perhaps you should consider yourself a Partial Preterist, because even they believe in a future return of Jesus.

At any rate, I wish you luck on your journey is finding the truth.

God bless.

Joe

**Twospirits** · 05-29-2011, 12:23 PM

TheForgiven wrote,

On a side note, since your position is relatively new, and not part of main-stream Christianity, then it's quite safe to assume that your position is incorrect. Perhaps you should consider yourself a Partial Preterist, because even they believe in a future return of Jesus.

Boy, you either do not read posts carefully enough before you post, or you have a poor attention span. The very first thing I said concerning my position was that it was very similar to Amillennialism. And Amillennialism is not a recent relatively new belief system, it goes back to the early church fathers. In that 1st paragraph of that post I also gave scriptures on how the events occur that brings in Christ's coming.

See here: http://www.mountainretreatorg.net/es...athacreed.html

“By far the early church statement of faith that most vividly presents the early church’s belief in an amillennial, "consummationist" eschatology is The Athanasian Creed. Attributed to Athanasius, the Bishop of Alexandria and the champion of the Council of Nicaea, around 325 A.D., the creed ends with these words: "He shall come again to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life eternal, and they who indeed have done evil into eternal fire. This is the catholic faith, which except a man have believed faithfully and firmly he cannot be in a state of salvation." Let us analyze these closing verses more carefully to see how they align with the belief system we know today as amillennialism, and how they oppose any belief in an earthly 1000 year reign of Christ.

1. "He shall come again to judge the living and the dead." This simply means that there will be those who are alive as well as those who are dead when He comes (1 Thess. 4:15). Notice that judgement of the living and the dead occurs at His coming (cf. Matt. 25:31-46), not a thousand years after His coming.

2. "At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies ...." Thus, at Christ’s coming all rise, the good and the evil alike (cf. John 5:28,29, Matt. 12:41,42). Not just the good, and then a thousand years later the wicked.

3. "... and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life eternal, and they who indeed have done evil into eternal fire." This is a clear reference to Matt. 25:31-46. Athanasius views this as taking place after the resurrection (or translation), making it a post-resurrection judgement. This is in sharp contrast to the dispensational view that Matthew 25:31-46 is only a judgment of "living, mortal Gentiles" who survived the tribulation. Note again that it (i.e. Matt. 25:31-46) is viewed as a judgment of all men, the Jew and the Gentile, the wicked as well as the good.”

God bless---Twospirits

**TheForgiven** · 05-29-2011, 01:37 PM

Boy, you either do not read posts carefully enough before you post, or you have a poor attention span. The very first thing I said concerning my position was that it was very similar to Amillennialism. And Amillennialism is not a recent relatively new belief system, it goes back to the early church fathers. In that 1st paragraph of that post I also gave scriptures on how the events occur that brings in Christ's coming.

Naaa...I just stopped paying attention to you. And for the record, if you are NOT A-Mil, then being "similar" to A-Mil does not mean that your position is not recent. If you were 100% percent A-Mil, then you'd be correct. At any rate, it doesn't matter because you're still wrong...in my opinion. You've got your own little world called Henry's land of make believe.

So nobody is going to pay any attention to you, on any forum, much less your crazed dogmatic website.

'By far the early church statement of faith that most vividly presents the early church’s belief in an amillennial, "consummationist" eschatology is The Athanasian Creed.

There position and yours are two totally different beliefs. You are either with them, or against them; there are not in-betweens here.

Attributed to Athanasius, the Bishop of Alexandria and the champion of the Council of Nicaea, around 325 A.D., the creed ends with these words: "He shall come again to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies and shall give account for their own works.

Oh, so they are infallible now? I had no idea that you'd accept the creeds from a system of Church which you totally reject; at least I assume you do. Remember that those fathers were Catholic.

And they that have done good shall go into life eternal, and they who indeed have done evil into eternal fire. This is the catholic faith, which except a man have believed faithfully and firmly he cannot be in a state of salvation." Let us analyze these closing verses more carefully to see how they align with the belief system we know today as amillennialism, and how they oppose any belief in an earthly 1000 year reign of Christ.

1. "He shall come again to judge the living and the dead." This simply means that there will be those who are alive as well as those who are dead when He comes (1 Thess. 4:15). Notice that judgement of the living and the dead occurs at His coming (cf. Matt. 25:31-46), not a thousand years after His coming.

2. "At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies ...." Thus, at Christ’s coming all rise, the good and the evil alike (cf. John 5:28,29, Matt. 12:41,42). Not just the good, and then a thousand years later the wicked.

3. "... and shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life eternal, and they who indeed have done evil into eternal fire." This is a clear reference to Matt. 25:31-46. Athanasius views this as taking place after the resurrection (or translation), making it a post-resurrection judgement. This is in sharp contrast to the dispensational view that Matthew 25:31-46 is only a judgment of "living, mortal Gentiles" who survived the tribulation. Note again that it (i.e. Matt. 25:31-46) is viewed as a judgment of all men, the Jew and the Gentile, the wicked as well as the good.'

God bless---Twospirits

[/QUOTE]

You've got to keep in mind that the fathers did not all agree with each other. Or instance, Iranaeus and others were much different, and were questioned of their interpretation of Eschatology. Eusebius also was different, and had many elements of Preterism.

While it is true that most of them expected a future return of Jesus, for a final resurrection, not all of them believed that. Even so, it doesn't matter because your system of belief, although matching their expectations of a future return, is so far-fetched and that's quite laughable in many ways. I read much of your website, and found it quite entertaining. There is so much religious fiction contained on your site that I honestly think you should consider sending it to Hollywood and have them make a movie, with each of our Presidential leaders represented part of John's horrific Beast.

Have a nice day Henry. I'll leave you back to your coloring books.

Joe

**Twospirits** · 05-29-2011, 02:18 PM

TheForgiven wrote,

Naaa...I just stopped paying attention to you.

Good to know that, I'll return the favor starting now.

There position and yours are two totally different beliefs. You are either with them, or against them; there are not in-betweens here.

Hey brain-dead, I gave the link for one simple reason only. To show that the Amillennial view, which I hold for the most part is not a recent belief system and goes back to the early church fathers.; not that I agree with every word on that site.

Oh, so they are infallible now? I had no idea that you'd accept the creeds from a system of Church which you totally reject; at least I assume you do. Remember that those fathers were Catholic.

See above.

You've got to keep in mind that the fathers did not all agree with each other. Or instance, Iranaeus and others were much different, and were questioned of their interpretation of Eschatology. Eusebius also was different, and had many elements of Preterism.

While it is true that most of them expected a future return of Jesus, for a final resurrection, not all of them believed that. Even so, it doesn't matter because your system of belief, although matching their expectations of a future return, is so far-fetched and that's quite laughable in many ways.

Joe, you wouldn't know the truth even if it came up to you and bit you on your ass.

I read much of your website, and found it quite entertaining. There is so much religious fiction contained on your site that I honestly think you should consider sending it to Hollywood and have them make a movie, with each of our Presidential leaders represented part of John's horrific Beast.

There's one major problem with that motor-mouth, you guys already made a fictional story on that, and its Soooo bad that Hollywood rejected it! Now that's really bad!!

God bless---Twospirits