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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    "Spiritually fulfilled" is just an excuse - does it ring a bell? When something did not seems to literally occurred, the best and easy way out is to say it has been spiritually fulfilled. Now I wonder if this same tactic applies to AD 70....is the preterist's belief of Jesus return in AD 70 literal or spiritual?
    No, that "tactic" does not apply to the 70 AD event. Christ predicted the temple would be destroyed, and that event quite literally happened in 70 AD as we all know. Preterists understand this as the prophesied coming of Christ in judgement. It happened quite literally. Its description involved SYMBOLS - but it did not happen "spiritually." This has been explained to you a billion times and you still don't get it. It's fine if you don't agree, but it gets really tedious when you write as if you were ignorant of the Preterist position.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    No, that "tactic" does not apply to the 70 AD event. Christ predicted the temple would be destroyed, and that event quite literally happened in 70 AD as we all know. Preterists understand this as the prophesied coming of Christ in judgement. It happened quite literally. Its description involved SYMBOLS - but it did not happen "spiritually." This has been explained to you a billion times and you still don't get it. It's fine if you don't agree, but it gets really tedious when you write as if you were ignorant of the Preterist position.
    Excellent explanation brother Richard. It's just difficult to get Futurists to understand this. By their view, no "coming" of the Lord can happen UNLESS He is physically seen riding the clouds of the sky. So although Jerusalem's temple was destroyed by the coming of the Lord, they discount that as a qualifier of fulfilling Matthew 24 in 70AD because nobody was left around to write about a figure-man seen riding the clouds of heaven as the temple was being destroyed. But Jesus literally states that they would see the "sign" of the Son of Man. Futurists redirect the word "sign" as His return, and not the sign "of" His return.

    So we Preterists understand that the complete destruction of Jerusalem was the sign of the Lord Jesus coming in power, authority, and judgment. But the Futurists shake their index fingers at us, and insist that Jesus must be visible in the sky and be the sign himself. Thus, figuratively speaking, they ignore the obvious indicators of how electrons orbit an invisible atom is invisible; the atom cannot be seen, but the circular orbit around the atom provides a clear indication of the atoms shape. In the same way, witnessing the destruction of Jerusalem gave clear indication that Jesus was there, even though He could not be physically seen.

    Anyways, good post bro.

    Joe
    Last edited by TheForgiven; 05-25-2011 at 06:35 PM.
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  3. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    Excellent explanation brother Richard. It's just difficult to get Futurists to understand this. By their view, no "coming" of the Lord can happen UNLESS He is physically seen riding the clouds of the sky. So although Jerusalem's temple was destroyed by the coming of the Lord, they discount that as a qualifier of fulfilling Matthew 24 in 70AD because nobody was left around to write about a figure-man seen riding the clouds of heaven as the temple was being destroyed. But Jesus literally states that they would see the "sign" of the Son of Man. Futurists redirect the word "sign" as His return, and not the sign "of" His return.

    So we Preterists understand that the complete destruction of Jerusalem was the sign of the Lord Jesus coming in power, authority, and judgment. But the Futurists shake their index fingers at us, and insist that Jesus must be visible in the sky and be the sign himself. Thus, figuratively speaking, they ignore the obvious indicators of how electrons orbit an invisible atom is invisible; the atom cannot be seen, but the circular orbit around the atom provides a clear indication of the atoms shape. In the same way, witnessing the destruction of Jerusalem gave clear indication that Jesus was there, even though He could not be physically seen.

    Anyways, good post bro.

    Joe
    Thanks for the good words Joe.

    Your atom analogy is a little distant for some folks to get. What do you think of the wind analogy. The only way we know the wind is blowing is by looking at how things react to it, like the leaves shaking or the tree bending. And even though we can't actually see the wind itself, we can look out the window and say "Look how hard that wind is blowing!". I think the coming of Jesus in judgment in 70 AD is like that.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Thanks for the good words Joe.

    Your atom analogy is a little distant for some folks to get. What do you think of the wind analogy. The only way we know the wind is blowing is by looking at how things react to it, like the leaves shaking or the tree bending. And even though we can't actually see the wind itself, we can look out the window and say "Look how hard that wind is blowing!". I think the coming of Jesus in judgment in 70 AD is like that.
    So you believe Jesus came like an invisible wind to come and destroy Jerusalem and the Temple. Why would Jesus want to do this Himself? He made use of the Romans. He always appeared to His apostles even after his resurrection physically never invisibly like a wind. Even in Acts 1, it was told that He would return physically and not invisibly:

    3 After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God. 4 On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: “Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have heard me speak about. 5 For John baptized with[a] water, but in a few days you will be baptized with[b] the Holy Spirit.”
    6 Then they gathered around him and asked him, “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

    7 He said to them: “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. 8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth.”

    9 After he said this, he was taken up before their very eyes, and a cloud hid him from their sight.

    10 They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going, when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them. 11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”


    I have said before, if Jesus can come invisibly without us knowing, then He can come every time at will. Obviously, He is with us till the end of time.

    Many Blessings.
    Last edited by CWH; 05-26-2011 at 12:09 AM.
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
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  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    Thanks for the good words Joe.

    Your atom analogy is a little distant for some folks to get. What do you think of the wind analogy. The only way we know the wind is blowing is by looking at how things react to it, like the leaves shaking or the tree bending. And even though we can't actually see the wind itself, we can look out the window and say "Look how hard that wind is blowing!". I think the coming of Jesus in judgment in 70 AD is like that.
    Yea I'd say you are right; I liked your wind illustration over my electron/atom illustration. Geez, sometimes perhaps I think too scientifically.

    At any rate, both examples explain how the Lord Jesus came. The signs that happened all throughout the inhabited world of the time, especially upon the entire nation of Israel, were clear indications that Jesus had taken his authority, power, and judgment, and reigned wrath and destruction upon His enemies.

    But then we get accused of saying that His reign ended in 70AD. That's pretty foolish! We believe that Jesus completed His reign upon His enemies (original enemies who persecuted Him), and then focused His attention on the nations; this I believe continues to this day. A king rules as long as he is given rule. And since we know that Jesus reigns forever, then are the nations also benefiting from His judgments, from generation to generation; from one new moon to the next; the earth has an eternal King who will never cease, nor will He allow His kingdom to decay away.

    Futurists teach that the Church will get worse and worse, until one day when their expected coming of Christ happens, the Church will have decayed into nearly nothing; no faith will be around. So based on their view, the Church doesn't get larger; it's reduced by corruption, lack of faith, and sinners. What Futurists fail realize is that this totally discredits Jesus authority and ability as a King, and would also show that Jesus was no different than the previous kings over Israel, David and Solomon, etc. But we know the truth! We know that Jesus is a perfect King who does not fail, and He will carry out His decisions upon the earth to ensure that the Church does not fail. That's the exact reason why the Church has continued for more than 2000 years; unlike Judaism which had to be taken out and rebuilt several times. Not so with the Church.

    OK, I'm babbling now. The wind illustration you gave fits perfectly. We can't see it, but we know that it's there based on the effects of its passing.

    God bless.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  6. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by CWH View Post
    So you believe Jesus came like an invisible wind to come and destroy Jerusalem and the Temple. I have said before, if Jesus can come invisibly without us knowing, then He can come every time at will. Obviously, He is with us till the end of time.

    Many Blessings.
    I can see that you're still stuck on Acts chapter 1. I thought we covered this before.

    Anways, here are a few passages for you to understand the wind-concept of the coming of God; this is nothing new.

    5.Isaiah 17:13
    The nations will rush like the rushing of many waters; But God will rebuke them and they will flee far away, And be chased like the chaff of the mountains before the wind, Like a rolling thing before the whirlwind.

    6.Daniel 2:35
    Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.


    joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    I can see that you're still stuck on Acts chapter 1. I thought we covered this before.

    Anways, here are a few passages for you to understand the wind-concept of the coming of God; this is nothing new.

    5.Isaiah 17:13
    The nations will rush like the rushing of many waters; But God will rebuke them and they will flee far away, And be chased like the chaff of the mountains before the wind, Like a rolling thing before the whirlwind.

    6.Daniel 2:35
    Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.


    joe
    Yeah, I know you have a problem with Acts 1, and Acts 1 will continue to haunt you.

    The passages you provided have nothing to do with the invisible return of Jesus. One way out of the preterist's predicament is to just say that he did came in AD 70 invisibly but however one day he will come back visibly for all eyes to see. Since He is reigning in heaven, I see no reason why he would not appear invisibly many times to help His people ensuring that the Church will not fail. How long can he remain invisible?....Forever? If so , why? This I believe is the partial preterist's stand which certainly sounds better to me than the full preterists. See my expalnation to your passages:

    5.Isaiah 17:13
    The nations will rush like the rushing of many waters; But God will rebuke them and they will flee far away, And be chased like the chaff of the mountains before the wind, Like a rolling thing before the whirlwind.
    It means that the nations who were against God will come like a rush in great numbers to attack and God will make them flee far away like mountain chaff blown by the wind, like debris blown before the whirlwind.

    6.Daniel 2:35
    Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.

    The vestiges of the Roman Empire, ? the revived Roman Empire, the Greek Empire, the Mede/Persian Empire, the Babylonian empire will be destroyed and become like chaff blown by the wind till no more is found. And Christ that destroy them will become like a great kingdom filling the whole earth.

    Many Blessings
    Ask and You shall receive,
    Seek and You shall find,
    Knock and the door will be open unto You.

  8. #18
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    Yeah, I know you have a problem with Acts 1, and Acts 1 will continue to haunt you.
    That's a big negative there boss. I don't have a problem with Acts chapter 1. I have a problem with the way you Futurists interpret Acts chapter 1. You zoom in on one key word, "like". You guys interpret the word "like" as "exact", as though the Angel were telling the Apostles that Jesus would return "exactly" as they saw Him go into heaven. But that is not what the Angel said; for he said that this Jesus would come in "likeness". If someone slaps a friend of mine, and that someone threatens to slap me, I will respond, "What? Are you going to slap me like you did my friend"? Now do I mean in the "manner" he slapped my friend, or the "likeness" of him slapping my friend? Who cares which hand he used, or at what speed the person slapped my friend; the point is, my friend was slapped, and now I'm being threatened by this person to slap me, just as he slapped my friend; not AS or HOW he slapped my friend. And that's the problem you Futurists are having with simple reading comprehension. Jesus would return just as assuredly as He departed. The Angel was not focussing on HOW He would return, but THAT He would return.

    Now how did Jesus depart into heaven? In power as He vanished behind a cloud. His coming would be as the clouds, as was Prophesied in the Old Testament.

    Lastly, you are forgetting one important fact. Jesus is God, and God never changes. God came to Israel in the clouds that attacked Israel after Solomon, after Daniel, and after Jesus. And God came upon Jerusalem with clouds that destroyed them in 70AD. So as you can see, Acts chapter 1 was fulfilled in the likeness of His departure; in power and authority of God in 70AD.

    The passages you provided have nothing to do with the invisible return of Jesus.
    That's your opinion, but obviously based merely on rejecting this because Jesus, per your expectation, must come based on your demanded expectations; in literal clouds floating in the sky. Your forefathers, the false Jews, made the same mistake with the coming of Elijah. They rejected Jesus as the Messiah because Elijah must first come as they expected. You obviously are no different.

    [
    COLOR="DarkOliveGreen"]5.Isaiah 17:13
    The nations will rush like the rushing of many waters; But God will rebuke them and they will flee far away, And be chased like the chaff of the mountains before the wind, Like a rolling thing before the whirlwind.[/COLOR]
    It means that the nations who were against God will come like a rush in great numbers to attack and God will make them flee far away like mountain chaff blown by the wind, like debris blown before the whirlwind.
    Great! Now why can't you apply this very same understanding towards the destruction of Jerusalem? You correctly understand this to be a metaphor against the "nations", but then why are you having so much difficulty applying this to His judgment upon Jerusalem in 70AD?


    6.Daniel 2:35
    Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth.
    The vestiges of the Roman Empire, ? the revived Roman Empire, the Greek Empire, the Mede/Persian Empire, the Babylonian empire will be destroyed and become like chaff blown by the wind till no more is found. And Christ that destroy them will become like a great kingdom filling the whole earth.
    Many Blessings[/QUOTE]

    Cheow, we've been through this a hundred times...oh wait, not a literal hundred times...just wanted to clarify that....but we've covered this so many times, and still you do not see the truth. There is no Babylonian Empire, or Roman Empire, or Grecian Empire. Those kingdoms have been done away with for more than 2000 years now. The ancient kingdoms of the Greeks, Babylonians, and the Romans had a religion worshipping many gods; i.e. Zues, Andrameda, Venus, Apollos, etc. None of those gods exist anymore and have long become an ancient myth. God's kingdom, the Church, destroyed all that.

    Where is the Roman Empire today? I know...I know..the ever popular 20th century myth of the European Union. But you see, that would mean that Daniel was shown 5 kingdoms before the Stone, but he literally only counted 4 kingdoms. And we've covered that. Why have you not understood this yet?

    Well, I'm not going to cover this again as I know you're rejecting this based on a 20th century mindset, and your demands for a 5th kingdom in Daniel which is not mentioned. He mentions 1, 2, 3, and 4 kingdoms; no 5th kigndom but a Stone that destroys the prior 4 kingdoms. So until you can come to grips to that, you're gonig to be stuck with the eschatology of mistakes, errors, and failed-predictions until you finally physically die my friend.

    Good luck.

    Joe
    Last edited by TheForgiven; 05-26-2011 at 06:45 AM.
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kangaroo Jack View Post
    Joe,

    So you would concur with me that Christ's mediatorial reign at the right hand is finished?

    KJ


    You are correct, Christ has given all power and authority back to God The Father.



    20But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

    21For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

    26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

    27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

    28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. 29Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?
    Brother Les

  10. #20
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    CWH wrote:
    Yeah, I know you have a problem with Acts 1, and Acts 1 will continue to haunt you.
    I assume you are speaking about Acts 1:11. What about it? It meant nothing more than Christ would certainly return. It did NOT imply that He would return physically as He departed.

    The Greek "hon tropon" does not mean "in like manner" as the Futurists render it. The expression is used in only four other instances in the new testament and the Futurists translations do not render it "in like manner" in those instances. This exposes their bias in Acts 1:11.

    It should read,

    This same Jesus who was taken up from you into heaven, will so certainly come as you saw Him go into heaven.
    You have already said that Caiaphas saw Him come "symbolically."

    You said:
    But did Caiaphas really literally saw Jesus sitting at the right hand of God and coming in the clouds of heaven? More likely, it's SYMBOLIC to mean that when Jesus was raised to heaven. He received the Power from God the Father to rule as King of Kings.
    You don't get it do you? The moment you posted this statement it became impossible for you to prove your Futurist case.

    KJ

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