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  1. #1
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    Trodden down by the Gentiles

    I've been considering this time limit and wondered how many preterist understand this to have been fulfilled in the first century.

    Luke 21:24
    And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

    My thought would be that the context is the trodden down of Jerusalem and as to the words 'trodden down' implies to trample, crush with the feet. What more descriptive language would be needed to related to the siege that was placed around the city Jerusalem as a choke hold or a foot to the neck of the city. As to Josephus and his accounts given to the times of trouble for the people knowing what Jesus had foretold of that time (Matthew 24:15-35)

    Rev.11:2
    2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months

    Here in Revelation it defines a time of 42 months as to the treading under foot. So in my account of reading the seige under Titus was in 69CE until 70CE that of Jerusalem. Would the time allowed to the Gentiles continue until 73CE? Would it have started with the seige by Cestius Gallus in 67EC until 70CE with the desturction.

    What's your thoughts?
    Last edited by Beck; 05-05-2011 at 04:07 PM.

  2. #2
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beck View Post
    I've been considering this time limit and wondered how many preterist understand this to have been fulfilled in the first century.

    Luke 21:24
    And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

    My thought would be that the context is the trodden down of Jerusalem and as to the words 'trodden down' implies to trample, crush with the feet. What more descriptive language would be needed to related to the siege that was placed around the city Jerusalem as a choke hold or a foot to the neck of the city. As to Josephus and his accounts given to the times of trouble for the people knowing what Jesus had foretold of that time (Matthew 24:15-35)

    Rev.11:2
    2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months

    Here in Revelation it defines a time of 42 months as to the treading under foot. So in my account of reading the seige under Titus was in 69CE until 70CE that of Jerusalem. Would the time allowed to the Gentiles continue until 73CE? Would it have started with the seige by Cestius Gallus in 67EC until 70CE with the desturction.

    What's your thoughts?
    You hit the nail right on the head. Revelation 11:2 tells us exactly how long that "Trodden down by the Gentiles" upon Jerusalem would last. Funny thing is, Futurists count the entire occupation of any foreigner since 70AD to 1967 as the "times of the Gentiles". Which of course contradicts Revelation 11:2.

    One of their solutions is to teach that Luke 21:24 referred to the 2000 year occupation of Jerusalem, while Revelation 11:2 referred to the final 3.5 years occupation of the Anti-Christ (traditional Futurism). Others believe something totally different, and view the "trodden down of the Gentiles" as a Prophetic occupation of Christ's kingdom, from a false Priest, or false messiah; something along that lines.

    At any rate, Revelation 11:2 tells us that the "Times of the Gentiles" trodden the Holy City (Jerusalem) for 42 months would not last for 2000 years; there are no verses to support this theory without having to divided the two text from each other. That of course is one of the many flaws of Futurism, in that it has to separate contextual meanings even when other verses support the proposed context of another Prophesy; as shown above.

    Great post brother Beck.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beck View Post
    I've been considering this time limit and wondered how many preterist understand this to have been fulfilled in the first century.
    Luke 21:24
    And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
    My thought would be that the context is the trodden down of Jerusalem and as to the words 'trodden down' implies to trample, crush with the feet. What more descriptive language would be needed to related to the siege that was placed around the city Jerusalem as a choke hold or a foot to the neck of the city. As to Josephus and his accounts given to the times of trouble for the people knowing what Jesus had foretold of that time (Matthew 24:15-35)
    Rev.11:2
    2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months
    Here in Revelation it defines a time of 42 months as to the treading under foot. So in my account of reading the seige under Titus was in 69CE until 70CE that of Jerusalem. Would the time allowed to the Gentiles continue until 73CE? Would it have started with the seige by Cestius Gallus in 67EC until 70CE with the desturction.

    What's your thoughts?
    On a scale of 1 to 10, you post is a 100!

    The two verses you cited are the only two verses in the NT that speak of the Gentiles "treading down" Jerusalem. Well done.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  4. #4
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    Thanks, Joe and Richard

    For reaffirming my thoughts, but which do you view is the beginning of the 42 months and the ending? If one choice the seige of Cestius Gallus in 67EC until 70CE one would also recognize that those that professed to be saints, but received the mark of the beast not having their names written down in the book of life was not saints, but harlots, wolves in sheep cloth. (Here is the patience and faith of the saints).

    The saints would have been wise and having the understanding given to them by the book of Daniel concerning the abomination that maketh desolate and reaffirmed and revealed by Jesus as the coming arimes that would one day surround the city Jerusalem and bring about her destruction. These fleed the city as recorded by Josephus unto the mounatins of Pella. I believe Agrippa II was wise enough to know that it was time to leave, but many believed the false reports of those that spoke that they could defeat the whole Roman army because they defeated the army of Cestius Gallus. Josephus would give account of many false prophets that lead many to their deaths.

    So I know the beast of the sea is given 42 months to make war with the saints and overcome them, but is this the same 42 months of God's wrath upon the wicked Jerusalem? I think these should be separated for one receving the mark of the beast would not come with in the time of tribulation by him. For those that recevied where not killed, but those that didn't receive the mark nor worship the beast was killed or in other words overcame. This couldn't be refering to the seige from 67CE to 70CE for when the army came into the city they spared no one.

    How do you see this?

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beck View Post
    Thanks, Joe and Richard

    For reaffirming my thoughts, but which do you view is the beginning of the 42 months and the ending? If one choice the seige of Cestius Gallus in 67EC until 70CE one would also recognize that those that professed to be saints, but received the mark of the beast not having their names written down in the book of life was not saints, but harlots, wolves in sheep cloth. (Here is the patience and faith of the saints).

    The saints would have been wise and having the understanding given to them by the book of Daniel concerning the abomination that maketh desolate and reaffirmed and revealed by Jesus as the coming arimes that would one day surround the city Jerusalem and bring about her destruction. These fleed the city as recorded by Josephus unto the mounatins of Pella. I believe Agrippa II was wise enough to know that it was time to leave, but many believed the false reports of those that spoke that they could defeat the whole Roman army because they defeated the army of Cestius Gallus. Josephus would give account of many false prophets that lead many to their deaths.

    So I know the beast of the sea is given 42 months to make war with the saints and overcome them, but is this the same 42 months of God's wrath upon the wicked Jerusalem? I think these should be separated for one receving the mark of the beast would not come with in the time of tribulation by him. For those that recevied where not killed, but those that didn't receive the mark nor worship the beast was killed or in other words overcame. This couldn't be refering to the seige from 67CE to 70CE for when the army came into the city they spared no one.

    How do you see this?
    I don't really care about those kind of details. There are too many uncertainties, so I just focus on the "Big Picture."

    But as for the "Mark of the Beast." I'm convinced that refers to the images and inscriptions on the money, without which you could neither buy nor sell.
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
    • Remember why we debate. We have nothing to lose but the errors we hold. Who but a stubborn fool would hold to errors once they have been exposed?

    Check out my blog site

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Beck View Post
    I've been considering this time limit and wondered how many preterist understand this to have been fulfilled in the first century.

    Luke 21:24
    And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

    My thought would be that the context is the trodden down of Jerusalem and as to the words 'trodden down' implies to trample, crush with the feet. What more descriptive language would be needed to related to the siege that was placed around the city Jerusalem as a choke hold or a foot to the neck of the city. As to Josephus and his accounts given to the times of trouble for the people knowing what Jesus had foretold of that time (Matthew 24:15-35)

    Rev.11:2
    2But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months

    Here in Revelation it defines a time of 42 months as to the treading under foot. So in my account of reading the seige under Titus was in 69CE until 70CE that of Jerusalem. Would the time allowed to the Gentiles continue until 73CE? Would it have started with the siege by Cestius Gallus in 67EC until 70CE with the destruction.

    What's your thoughts?
    I'm agreed. If we substitute the word 'nations' for gentiles as a comparative consideration, it supports that the treading of the armies of the nations was to be accomplished in relation to Daniels prophecy of the desolation of the city and temple coming in like a 'flood'.

    I think many have associated the trampling down with the 'fullness of the nations be coming in" of Romans 11:25. But the subject and topic are different though the time periods overlap.

    The 'fullness of the nations' in Rom 11:25 is referring to the filling of individuals among the non Jewish nations [gentiles] with the Spirit of God which would then have an effect of jealousy unto emulation in some of the [partially or temporarily hardened] Israelites. This was within a primary emphasis of before the seige, desolation, death and so forth. This 'jealousy' was prophesied in Deut 32.

    Paul's quote and usage of Duet 32 [the song of Moses] in Romans 11 further supports the first century as the end times events of the mosaic covenant. His quote from Isaiah 59 and the 'deliverer' coming to zion includes that chapter also in the first century context.

    The first century context of Rom 11 is confirmed in the present tense [55-60 AD]emphasis of vss 28-32.
    Last edited by EndtimesDeut32/70AD; 05-07-2011 at 08:28 PM.
    1Thess 4:8 He therefore that despiseth, despiseth not man, but God, who hath also given unto us his holy Spirit.
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    If you are oppressed and enslaved by religious law, you may have a tendency to oppress, enslave and attempt to lord over others who are free.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by EndtimesDeut32/70AD View Post
    I'm agreed. If we substitute the word 'nations' for gentiles as a comparative consideration, it supports that the treading of the armies of the nations was to be accomplished in relation to Daniels prophecy of the desolation of the city and temple coming in like a 'flood'.

    I think many have associated the trampling down until it was 'like a flood' with the 'fullness of the nations be coming in" of Romans 11:25. But the subject and topic are separate though the time periods overlap.

    The 'fullness of the nations' in Rom 11:25 is referring to the filling of individuals among the non Jewish nations [gentiles] with the rebirth by the Spirit and knowledge of God which would then have an effect of jealousy unto emulation in some of the remaining unbelieving [partially or temporarily hardened] of the Jews with a primary emphasis of before the seige, desolation, death and so forth. This 'jealousy' was prophesied in Deut 32.

    Paul's quote and usage of it in Romans 11 further supports the song of Moses referring to the first century [end times] event. His quote from Isaiah 59 and the 'deliverer' coming to zion includes that chapter in the first century context.

    The first century context of Rom 11 is confirmed in the present tense [55-60 AD]emphasis of vss 28-32.
    I had a thought to mention this before, but left it out. Some may associate the fulliness of the nations to the trampling down by the Gentile, but it has no association in context.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by RAM View Post
    I don't really care about those kind of details. There are too many uncertainties, so I just focus on the "Big Picture."

    But as for the "Mark of the Beast." I'm convinced that refers to the images and inscriptions on the money, without which you could neither buy nor sell.
    I know what you mean, but I've have to say I'm all for the small details it makes for a more detailed picture even as a big picture has small details.

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