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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    45 And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him.

    Daniel chapter 11 verse 40 tells us that Antiochus IV, whom I believe the Angel was referring to here, would die. History records that nobody was able to help him because he suffered a stupid accident that resulted in the most horrible smell that even he had a difficult time handling. Antiochus IV fell off of his Chariot, and damaged his insides so badly, more than likely his lower intestines or colon, that a horrible smell so bad that people avoided him wherever he went. Even at his death, he basically admit that dying is much better than having to deal with his odor.

    Thus ends the reign of Antiochus IV. This takes us to chapter 12:


    If Antiochus IV is recorded to have died in the previous chapter, how can we conclude that chapter 12 continues on with his persecution, which we know does not match history. His persecution of the Jews stopped before his injury from his chariot. And that happened at the end of chapter 11. Thus, Chapter 12 begins with, "Michael shall stand up; the great prince who watches over the sons of your people......and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never since there was a nation, even to that time.."
    First it says "Yet he shall come to his end" At that time there shall be trouble never seen before since there was a Jewish nation, and at that same time your people Daniel shall be delivered that is ever one that is written in the book of Life. (My paraphasing)


    So in reference to 'his end' it gives that at that same time there is trouble and deliverence, so my conclusion would be 'his end' is at that same time as the 'time of the end' mentioned in verse 40 which would include that time of trouble and time of deliverence.


    Also noted that Michael shall stand up and deliver the people which in chapter 10 was said that he was the only one that stood with the messenger as Michael your prince. Michael is also said to be 'one of the chief of princes' or as some translate 'the first of the chief of prince' and also mentioned as the great prince. In correlation to how Daniel employs the usage of 'prince' and 'prince of princes' it would be my contention that Michael is an reference to the a high priest or priesthood (Dan.10:13) and as I see it the great prince could well have been Judah Maccabee and he shall stand up for the people and they shall be delievered.



    Go your way....you will sleep....you will rise to your inheritance at the end of the days. This is the AoD that lasts for 1,290 days plus the additional 45 days. This AoD is not the same as the one Antiochus inflicted for the 2,300 evenings and mornings. And as I've stated, Antiochus IV is killed as recorded in Daniel 11:40.

    When we read, "at that time", this doesn't mean like the very next day, or a few weeks later. Antiochus IV died about 164 years prior to the crucifixion of Christ, which would make it about 120 to 130 days prior to the birth of Christ. I'd say this more than constitutes "at that time".
    At that time from chapter 12 is in reference to what is spoken of in the time of the end which concerns the king of the north [Seleucid Syria ]and the king of the south [ Ptolemaic Egypt].
    Last edited by Beck; 11-18-2011 at 01:44 PM.
    Beck

  2. #82
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    First it says "Yet he shall come to his end" At that time there shall be trouble never seen before since there was a Jewish nation, and at that same time your people Daniel shall be delivered that is ever one that is written in the book of Life. (My paraphasing)


    So in reference to 'his end' it gives that at that same time there is trouble and deliverence, so my conclusion would be 'his end' is at that same time as the 'time of the end' mentioned in verse 40 which would include that time of trouble and time of deliverence.
    This doesn't fit history my friend. That is not what happened with Antiochus. His persecution of the Jews happened well before his pitching his tents between the sea and the holy land. Therefore, historically speaking, it is impossible to assume that he comes to his end at the same time as the Saints were being persecuted. The order of events is Jewish persecution, his pitching his tents some time after the persecution, then his injury, and then his eventual death.

    The Great Tribulation was not during the hands of Antiochus. If that were true, then Jesus was wrong because He states to the Apostles that in their (Apostles) future, a time of Tribulation would come that would never be equated to the Jewish race ever again, not since the beginning, nor in the future. Daniel chapter 12 historically applies to the first century, and not 200 years B.C.

    Also noted that Michael shall stand up and deliver the people which in chapter 10 was said that he was the only one that stood with the messenger as Michael your prince. Michael is also said to be 'one of the chief of princes' or as some translate 'the first of the chief of prince' and also mentioned as the great prince. In correlation to how Daniel employs the usage of 'prince' and 'prince of princes' it would be my contention that Michael is an reference to the a high priest or priesthood (Dan.10:13) and as I see it the great prince could well have been Judah Maccabee and he shall stand up for the people and they shall be delievered.
    "Michael" is not understood to perfection. Some view this as Christ Jesus, which might be true. Or he may simply be an Angel assigned to watch over the Jewish people. Notice how the Great Tribulation happens at the "standing up" of Michael? Yet those who's names were found in the book of life were spared from this Tribulation. This thus proves even more to a first century fulfillment, during the persecution caused at the destruction of Jerusalem between 66 and 70AD.

    This passage does not fit historically with the days of Antiochus IV.

    At that time from chapter 12 is in reference to what is spoken of in the time of the end which concerns the king of the north [Seleucid Syria ]and the king of the south [ Ptolemaic Egypt].
    [/QUOTE]

    OK, let's make a little adjustment here so you can get a better historical picture.

    Daniel 11:

    40 'At the time of the end the king of the South shall attack him; and the king of the North shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter the countries, overwhelm them, and pass through. 41 He shall also enter the Glorious Land, and many countries shall be overthrown; but these shall escape from his hand: Edom, Moab, and the prominent people of Ammon. 42 He shall stretch out his hand against the countries, and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 He shall have power over the treasures of gold and silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt; also the Libyans and Ethiopians shall follow at his heels. 44 But news from the east and the north shall trouble him; therefore he shall go out with great fury to destroy and annihilate many. 45 And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him.


    This is the time-frame when Antiochus IV tried to attack Egypt and steal money from its temple treasury. But another nation growing in tremendous power said, "NOPE! EGYPT IS OFF LIMITS TO YOU!" Antiochus in anger, decides to take his frustrations out on the Jews. Thus verse 44, "therefore he shall go out with great fury to destroy and annihilate many (Jews). It is then that he leaves and pitches his tents between the seas and the holy land (Israel). YET, he comes to his end during this time after suffering a bowel injury.

    THEN we get to chapter 12:

    1 'At that time Michael shall stand up,
    The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
    And there shall be a time of trouble,
    Such as never was since there was a nation,
    Even to that time.
    And at that time your people shall be delivered,
    Every one who is found written in the book.
    2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
    Some to everlasting life,
    Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
    3 Those who are wise shall shine
    Like the brightness of the firmament,
    And those who turn many to righteousness
    Like the stars forever and ever.



    After the death of Antiochus IV, a great Tribulation is said to happen when Michael, the Angel who stands watch over Daniel's people, stands up to protect those from the coming Tribulation; the ones being protected are those who's names are found in the book (likely the book of life). This is confirmed in the book of Revelation, being the 144,000 sealed with the name of God on their foreheads. These are those who have been chosen from each of the 12 Tribes of Israel, while those who possessed the mark of the Beast (ROME) were left for judgment of this Great Tribulation. The Great Tribulation would come in the form of the 7 seals, the 7 trumpets, the 7 bowls of wrath, and the 7 thunders. Revelation is the "unveiling" or "unsealing" of all of Revelation; what Daniel was told to seal up and forget about, not asking anymore questions about the "last days", was finally revealed to John who received more answers about the "end times" of the Israeli people. Only a remnant (those found in the book) would be delivered.

    Here is a hint taken from Daniel to prove that Daniel 12 applies to the first century. Notice the mentioning of Michael the arch Angel fighting against the Devil and his Angels to protect the Saints from the Tribulation:

    Revelation 12:

    7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a] in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
    10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, 'Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.'


    As you can now see, Daniel chapter 12 involves a future Great Tribulation that Jesus mentions in the Gospels. This Great Tribulation did not involved the events of Antiochus IV. However, what happened with Antiochus IV would be something similar, although not exact, to what would happen to the Christians in the first century. Keep in mind that the Great Tribulation happens to those who are not being saved. What Antiochus IV caused was not a Great Tribulation, but a persecution of the Saints, much like Nero's persecution of the Christians. Nero Caesar may be the one that Daniel was wanting to know about; the little horn who spoke pompous words against the God of heaven.

    In conclusion, history does not fit the idea that Antiochus IV caused the Great Tribulation. Jesus stated that the Great Tribulation would happen during His generation. The protection from Michael the Arch Angel is confirmed in the book of Revelation. And the book of life is mentioned by both Daniel and by John in their respective visions. The Great Tribulation happened in the years 66 to 70AD.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    This doesn't fit history my friend. That is not what happened with Antiochus. His persecution of the Jews happened well before his pitching his tents between the sea and the holy land. Therefore, historically speaking, it is impossible to assume that he comes to his end at the same time as the Saints were being persecuted. The order of events is Jewish persecution, his pitching his tents some time after the persecution, then his injury, and then his eventual death.
    I guess with a mixed interpertation of these remaining verses from chapter 11 is why there are so many different opinions to who fullfills these, but all I'm doing is reading to see where if another king from the north stands up. I don't see another mentioned so I conclude that it remains Antiochus IV to the end of time.

    The Great Tribulation was not during the hands of Antiochus. If that were true, then Jesus was wrong because He states to the Apostles that in their (Apostles) future, a time of Tribulation would come that would never be equated to the Jewish race ever again, not since the beginning, nor in the future. Daniel chapter 12 historically applies to the first century, and not 200 years B.C.
    I'm not sure if anyone has understood me in the past when I said that Daniel visions is an type figure. I don't think anything that happens in the first century had anything to do with Daniel's visions. The only reason Jesus would even mention Daniel is that it was a type that they could understand what events happened and to watch and be ready for when they see the same type of events.

    One parallel is that in the time of Antiochus ruling over the holy land is that he persecuted and killed by forcing them to defile the temple for a period of time, times and half. This 'type' is an shadow of what would be in the first century fulfillment of the Great Tribulation.


    "Michael" is not understood to perfection. Some view this as Christ Jesus, which might be true. Or he may simply be an Angel assigned to watch over the Jewish people. Notice how the Great Tribulation happens at the "standing up" of Michael? Yet those who's names were found in the book of life were spared from this Tribulation. This thus proves even more to a first century fulfillment, during the persecution caused at the destruction of Jerusalem between 66 and 70AD.

    This passage does not fit historically with the days of Antiochus IV.
    To me the uses of 'Michael' would be in the same usage as 'Messiah'. I'm not saying that Michael equals Messiah, but that when one looks Michael is used to denote a 'prince' or ruler of the people. Which the people is aways the Jewish nation so that leans itself to a Jewish Leader. The same can be said of the Messiah, he is to be an Anointed One of which in the old testament we can find a number of Leaders that where a anointed ones. Moses, David, Hezekiah and even Cyrus of Persia was anointed. So these titles have be used for a number of people.


    Again taking that Michael can be just another way to say a leader or ruler of the people shall stand up at this time of trouble. That could very well be Judah Maccabee which his father was a priest of Israel.
    Last edited by Beck; 11-20-2011 at 02:14 PM.
    Beck

  4. #84
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    just reader

    ten toes , ten kingdoms, two legs, east and west. east -turkey,iran ,irqa,syria,eygpt. West -france, spain, itaily,great britain,gremany. all are in play now. three can be taken out and one could rise up. it's all starting to unfold. turkey is arming against syria , iran with infutrating irqa, eygpt is up for grabs. in the west who is bailing out who, great britain and gremany are shoring up the other three players. there are others involed but they are just clay. look for the little horn in todays mix. offend times prophecy pertain to two different times and events. i'm no scollar and can't even spell well but i love the word and enjoyed your thread. God bless.

  5. #85
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
    ten toes , ten kingdoms, two legs, east and west. east -turkey,iran ,irqa,syria,eygpt. West -france, spain, itaily,great britain,gremany. all are in play now. three can be taken out and one could rise up. it's all starting to unfold. turkey is arming against syria , iran with infutrating irqa, eygpt is up for grabs. in the west who is bailing out who, great britain and gremany are shoring up the other three players. there are others involed but they are just clay. look for the little horn in todays mix. offend times prophecy pertain to two different times and events. i'm no scollar and can't even spell well but i love the word and enjoyed your thread. God bless.
    Folks have been trying to match the prophecies with whatever was happening during their own generation for nearly two millennia. They've always been wrong. Why do you think it's any different this time?
    • Skepticism is the antiseptic of the mind.
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