Daniel's little horn another look.

[TheForgiven]

Joe,

Let me some how explain my thoughts on Daniel. I would like to prepose that Daniel is given these dreams and visions while in captivity of Babylon the beast of the Lion the first of four beast. We can agree that the first three are Babylon, Medo Perisa and Greece, but I would like to show that the four kingdom from out of that third kingdom.

but first lets consider that the beast is shown to have been slain and given to the flames (7:11) and that the rest of the beast (Babylon, Medo Perisa, Greece) had their dominon taken away yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time (7:12).

I tend to view this as the crumbling of the Roman Empire due to the "mixing of seeds". We all know that after the end of the Caesar dynasty, Rome, although still in power, and containing a mixture of the races, was not able to hold on to its rule and power from the Churches perspective. Bit-by-bit, Rome began to lose ground to the Church. By the 3rd century, Rome became a predominately Christian nation.

It is at this time that Daniel see another night vision and said he looked and saw one like the son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and was given a kingdom and dominon. Now most would consider this to be in reference to Jesus as the Son of man ascending to heaven, but if we keep this in context of the beast that was slain it would be speaking about the coming destruction as to coming in clouds. This would be showing that after a season and time the fourth kingdom would be slain. As refering to the coming of the son of man. Just as for reference that is used again by Jesus as the destruction of Jerusalem, but here I am preposing that is in reference to the Seleucid king of Antiochus and according to chapter 11 would seem to fit his end.

Remember, Daniel chapter 7 is about Rome as its little horn, although verses 1-6 are a quick over-view of the initial three kingdoms (Babylon, Medes / Persians, and then Greece). Then in verse 7, he sees a vision of a rising Empire which would later be the Romans. Thus, Daniel 7:7-11, and 19-27 is entirely about Rome. Then in verse 28 Daniel is confused, and wants to know more about the beastly kingdoms. That's when he is given more visions pertaining to the Medes and Persians, and the Greeks. It is Greece that spawns great interest as this would be the time from Alexander the Great, to the time of the Maccabeus revolts against Antiochus IV.

Daniel, still very curious about the different visions he had seen, begins to pray even more fervently in chapter 9, and wants to know what all of this is about. That's when he is given the answers about the Messiah, who would establish a covenant for one week, during which He would be cutoff or killed. This involves the 70 weeks.

Still wanting to know more answers, the Angel starts with the captivity in chapter 10, by the Medes/Persians. He then shifts his focus to the Greeks in chapter 11, and ending with Antiochus IV. Finally, involving the 4th beast, we see the Angel referring to the "time of the end" and mentions the removal of the morning/daily sacrifices in chapter 12, which was caused by the 11th horn of the 4th Beast.

So, to recap. Daniel is given an initial set of visions of all four beasts in chapter 7, which primarily focuses on the 4th Beast and its 10 + 1 horns. He, being curious, wants more answers, and thus receives information about the kingdoms of the Medes/Persians and the Greeks in chapter 8, which would involve the 2nd and 3rd kingdoms mentioned in chapter 7. Then, still wanting to know more, he is given information about the seventy weeks in chapter 9. Still, being very curious, he wanted to know even more, so in chapters 10 and 11 he receives receives further information about Greece (3rd kingdom), and ends with the 4th kingdom is chapter 12.

Chapter 12 the account of the abomination of the sanctuary and the cleaning of the sanctuary.

Yes, this is the cleansing that takes place during the appointed "time of the end"; that is, during the 4th kingdom.

The interpertation of the vision is then given to Daniel because he was grieved in his spirit and the it troubled him. Thus the little horn rise to power by uprooting three kings and then maded war with the saints and prevailed against them. Until judgment was given to the saints of the most high to possess the kingdom. To me this again would be in view of Antiochus IV as making war with the saints and ruling them for a pointed of 3.5 years until the revolt of Judah Maccabee. The Jewish feast of Hanukkah ("Dedication") commemorates the restoration of Jewish worship at the temple in Jerusalem in 165 BCE, after Judah Maccabee removed the pagan statuary.

This is Rome.

This would also aline with Anitochus speaking great words against the most holy place and to think to change times and laws. (I'm not able at this time to give a link to a site that quotes of Meccabees of how Antiochus change laws and so forth) Later in chapter 7 it gives that this little horn is given a time times and dividing of time (1260) the same as in chapter 11. This also fits Anitochus and his reign over Judah.

Remember chapter 7 is not the same as chapter 11. 7 involved a brief introduction of all 4 kingdoms, although at that time, it was the 4th kingdom that spawned his curiosity. Chapter 7 was primarily about Rome, while chapter 11 was primarily about Greece, and then Rome in chapter 12.

See my summary above. Here's another short recap:

1. Chapter 7 - all the kingdoms, but the 4th kingdom grabs his attention
2. Chapter 8 - all about the Medes/Persians facing attack from Greece
3. Chapter 9 - all about the 70 weeks to bring about the Messiah
4. Chapter 10 - Daniel sees the Angel to receive more answers, which would explain everything from chapter 7 to 12.
5. Chapter 11 - Seleucid (Greeks) domination and the AoD caused by him, as well as the Maccabeus revolt
6. Chapter 12 - AoD and Tribulation caused by the Romans (time of the end)

Hope this helps.

Joe

[gilgal]

How can Daniel 7 be considered prophetic if part of the vision was fulfilled already?

Daniel 7
1In the first year of Belshazzar king of Babylon Daniel had a dream and visions of his head upon his bed: then he wrote the dream, and told the sum of the matters.

I think the 1st Kingdom personified Nebuchadnezzar more than Belshazzar.

[TheForgiven]

How can Daniel 7 be considered prophetic if part of the vision was fulfilled already?

I think the 1st Kingdom personified Nebuchadnezzar more than Belshazzar.

I'd say it's because Prophesy isn't always a prediction of future events. In some cases, Prophesy is a spiritual message explaining past circumstances leading up to fiture circumstances. In this case, Babylon had already defeated Israel, yet Daniel's sees a vision of a statue, with the head of gold representing the king of Babylon. This was already fufilled, yet the vision was given to Daniel to explain, not only to him but to the king, of what was going on and its reasons.

Joe

[gilgal]

I'd say it's because Prophesy isn't always a prediction of future events. In some cases, Prophesy is a spiritual message explaining past circumstances leading up to fiture circumstances. In this case, Babylon had already defeated Israel, yet Daniel's sees a vision of a statue, with the head of gold representing the king of Babylon. This was already fufilled, yet the vision was given to Daniel to explain, not only to him but to the king, of what was going on and its reasons.

Joe

So how does the description fit with Babylon?

[TheForgiven]

So how does the description fit with Babylon?

Well to be honest, Christians have been debating the identity of the Lion and it's two wings being ripped off for centuries.

I believe the Lion itself represents the Babylonian Empire as begun (as a flesh eater) under the first king of Babylon, Nebechegnedzar (spelling). But because the king failed to give God His due glory, Neb was brought low to the ground, thus possibly signifying the wings being ripped off. Other speculate that the wings being ripped off represents the taming of the lion, or the Babylonian Empire becoming more peaceful. This explains the phrase, "given a human heart". Remember, it was Neb's heart of stone that resulted in his calamity. But it was his repentance that led to Babylon being restored, and much more; it had been given a human heart, with kings who cared for Daniel and his people.

Belshazzar would become the last king of Babylon when the Medes and Persians overtake Babylon.

Thus, the Lion in my opinion represents Babylon going from bad, to good, and then being overtaken by the next Beast; a leopard with 4 wings.

Joe

[Beck]

How well does Antiochus IV fit the requirements of chapter 7 of the fourth beast kingdom's little horn as Daniel is given the interpertations.

That the fourth beast kingdom is diverse from all kingdoms and shall devour the whole earth [not global, but the land of Israel] and shall tread it down and break it in pieces.

And ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings, now kings wear crowns and govern land and people much like the Jewish counter part as the priest and high priest. Could this be what Daniel has been desrcibed as to this kingdom being diverse from all other kingdoms. In that three of the kings [priest] are subdue by the little horn. Therefore both a king and high priest wear crowns and both where anointed and govern the people. Being anointed by a horn of filled with oil. Antiochus saw the high priest as nothing more than a governor in which he could set up or remove.

Here we have three that are uprooted, subdued "Onias III, Jason, and Menelaus" by Antiochus.

And he [Antiochus IV] shall speak great words against the most High and shall wear out the saints and think to change times and laws. Hellenism reached a high of foregin customs and laws under Antiochus. This would being about the Maccabees revolt. It was given to his hand until a time and times and dividing of time. Meaning that from desecration of the Temple in 167BC to 163BC.

[gilgal]

Here we have three that are uprooted, subdued "Onias III, Jason, and Menelaus" by Antiochus.

That's an interesting observation. But should we take it that the 3 priests were part of the kingdom? The 11th horn, was he a priest as well? The Romans also used that authority. They recognized Caiaphas as high priest whereas the Jews recognized Annas the father-in-law.

Speaking of horns our attention is always on the two little horns of Daniel 7 and 8. But what is the significance of the horns being little. On the other hand there were the two long horn of the ram in Daniel 8. But one was longer than the other.

The short horn of the ram has to be Media, the king of the Medes, Darius. The longer horn was Persia which is said to have 4 Persian kings.

Maybe the length of the horn means length of time of the kingdom or dynasty.

So if the horn is short, it shows that even if it's powerful, its' duration is short.

[TheForgiven]

How well does Antiochus IV fit the requirements of chapter 7 of the fourth beast kingdom's little horn as Daniel is given the interpertations.

That the fourth beast kingdom is diverse from all kingdoms and shall devour the whole earth [not global, but the land of Israel] and shall tread it down and break it in pieces.

And ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings, now kings wear crowns and govern land and people much like the Jewish counter part as the priest and high priest. Could this be what Daniel has been desrcibed as to this kingdom being diverse from all other kingdoms. In that three of the kings [priest] are subdue by the little horn. Therefore both a king and high priest wear crowns and both where anointed and govern the people. Being anointed by a horn of filled with oil. Antiochus saw the high priest as nothing more than a governor in which he could set up or remove.

Here we have three that are uprooted, subdued "Onias III, Jason, and Menelaus" by Antiochus.

And he [Antiochus IV] shall speak great words against the most High and shall wear out the saints and think to change times and laws. Hellenism reached a high of foregin customs and laws under Antiochus. This would being about the Maccabees revolt. It was given to his hand until a time and times and dividing of time. Meaning that from desecration of the Temple in 167BC to 163BC.

I see you are still being tempted to fit the fourth kingdom under Antiochus IV. Well, let’s take each beast one at a time, and see if we can’t bring this to a final conclusion.

Beginning with the first Beast of Daniel 7, Daniel sees a Lion with two wings of an eagle.



Let’s think for a moment. What is the meaning of a Lion, and also the two wings of an eagle? First of all, the lion should be quite simple. A lion represents a king of all creatures abiding within a jungle, and/or wilderness. The Lion has always been understood to be the top of the food chain, dominating all the creatures on the ground, as well as the fowl (birds) in the air. As I’ve been maintaining, King Nebuchadnezzar’s Babylonian Empire was picture as a Lion. In Daniel 2, we read:

Daniel 2:

37 Thou, O king, art a king of kings, to whom the God of heaven has given a powerful and strong and honourable kingdom, 38 in every place where the children of men dwell: and he has given into thine hand the wild beasts of the field, and the birds of the sky and the fish of the sea, and he has made thee lord of all.

The Lion represents the kingdom of Babylon as it was during the days of Nebuchadnezzar, who was given charge/rule of all men. Biblically, “men” are defined as “beasts of the field, the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea"; this signifies that the king of Babylon (Nebuchednezzar) gained quick dominion and control (wings of an eagle) of Israel (field), the Saints (birds of the sky), and the foreigners (fish in the sea); he was made “lord of all”, thus fulfilling the imagery of the Lion and it's two wings of an eagle.

But then Daniel sees that the lion’s wings were torn off. “Wings” of an eagle represent the speed, agility, and dominion of an Empire. Under Nebuchadnezzar’s rule, God blessed the kingdom king and enabled him to spread his kingdom quite rapidly. But because he failed to give God the glory for his majestic inheritance, he was stricken down and forced to live like a dog (which fulfilled Isaiah 14:12), going from king to peasant as the morning star (king) who had been brought low to the ground. The Babylonian Empire was no longer the fast dominating Empire that Daniel witnesses during king Nebuchednezzar. So the wings being torn off represented Babylon’s inability to divide and conquer with speed and agility due to the sin committed from the king, in failing to give God the honor and glory.

Now keep in mind that Daniel had the four-beast visions, as recorded in chapter 7, during the days of Baltasar, the last king of the Babylonian Empire. Thus, during this time, Babylon was not as strong as it was during the initial days of king Neb. When Nebuchadnezzar converted to God, his heart had become soft, thus the kingdom of Babylon had become soft, as depicted by the vision of the Lion losing its wings, and being forced to stand up like a man, possessing a heart of a man. This represented the compassion of the kings of Babylon, even during the days of the final king Baltsar, upon the inhabitants of Daniels people. So the imagery depicting the lion losing its wings represented the past-era of the Babylonian Empire.

So, in conclusion, we can see that the first Beast mentioned in Daniel 7, of a Lion with two wings of an eagle, which were torn off, forcing the Lion to walk like a man, and with the heart of a man, represented the kingdom of Babylon. Nebuchadnezzar was the king given rule and charge of all the races, from the lands of Israel, to the inhabitants around her (Gentiles). But after his conversion to God, the Babylonian Empire would grow soft, and lose its desire to conquer kingdoms with speed, agility, and dominion-control. Daniel lived during the final days to witness the fall of the Babylonian Empire, to the next Beast; a bear that stands on its side, with crushing teeth holding three ribs in its mouth; the Medo-Persia era.

Thus concludes the imagery of the first Beast.

[Beck]

That's an interesting observation. But should we take it that the 3 priests were part of the kingdom? The 11th horn, was he a priest as well? The Romans also used that authority. They recognized Caiaphas as high priest whereas the Jews recognized Annas the father-in-law.

It is interesting, but I'm just not sure that's why I asked so that I might gain some insight in either direction.


Lets note that Daniel doesn't give a likeness to the beast of the fourth beast. Just that it's dreadful, terrible and strong and has great iron teeth then continues to describe it by having ten horns on it's head and another little one that comes up among them.


Could it be possible that one of the four heads from the leopard is what Daniel is describing here which I guess the reader should have picked up on. In this head there are ten horns and a little horn. If this is parallel with Daniel 8 then that little horn is representing Antiochus IV from the Seleucid kingdom.


The ten are part of that kingdom in the sence that Daniel described them as ten toes partly iron and partly clay. We know that the priesthood is what the destruction was prophesied to come upon. They mingled themselves with that kingdom in so to gain favor and power. As we can see with these three Priest ""Onias III, Jason, and Menelaus" they were hungry for power and took out each other. I would think non the less of the other Priest at that time. As Daniel refered to them as mingled with the 'seed of man'.

As also noted that the little horn Antiochus of chapter 11 had some help as to forsake the holy covenant (11:30,32). As denoting the use of king it could apply the same a prince which is used as a anointed one (Messiah) but that is given to kings as well a high priest.

prince Strong's H5057 - nagiyd leader, ruler, captain, prince a) ruler, prince

Speaking of horns our attention is always on the two little horns of Daniel 7 and 8. But what is the significance of the horns being little. On the other hand there were the two long horn of the ram in Daniel 8. But one was longer than the other.

The short horn of the ram has to be Media, the king of the Medes, Darius. The longer horn was Persia which is said to have 4 Persian kings.

Maybe the length of the horn means length of time of the kingdom or dynasty.

So if the horn is short, it shows that even if it's powerful, its' duration is short.

I can see that interperation of the length of the horn as well that the He Goat and the Ram are two blemished sacrificial animals fighting near a canal.
That short time would also fit with Antiochus as ruling over Judah for a short period of 3 1/2 years

[gilgal]

I can see that interperation of the length of the horn as well that the He Goat and the Ram are two blemished sacrificial animals fighting near a canal.
That short time would also fit with Antiochus as ruling over Judah for a short period of 3 1/2 years

I question, why is it that the bear and the leopard isn't used in Daniel 8 but the ram and he-goat instead? Why did the vision switch from wild animals to the ram and he-goat?