Daniel's little horn another look.

[TheForgiven]

Who then are the ten kings of that kingdom if it's Rome? Would you also count Vespasian as one of the ten or the eleventh?

1. Augustus
2. Tiberius
3. Caligula
4. Claudius
5. Nero

6. Galba
7. Otho
8. Vitellius

9. Vespasian
10. Titus
11. Domitian


Even if we count Julius Caesar, Vepasian would have been one of the ten.

1Julius Caesars
2Augustus
3Tiberius
4Caligula
5Claudius
6Nero
7Galba
8Otho
9Vitellius
10Vespasian
11Titus
12Domitian

Your first list is correct.

1. Augustus Caesar
2. Tiberius Caesar
3. Claudius Caesar
4. Caligula Caesar
5. Nero Caesar (John's Beast that "was" / had the fatal neck wound)

Three subdued kings
5. Galba
6. Otho
7. Vitelius

8. Vespasian (little horn)
9. Titus (short reign)
10. Domitian (John's Beast that once was, now was not, and yet will come)


Fits like a glove.

Joe

[CWH]

Your first list is correct.

1. Augustus Caesar
2. Tiberius Caesar
3. Claudius Caesar
4. Caligula Caesar
5. Nero Caesar (John's Beast that "was" / had the fatal neck wound)

Three subdued kings
5. Galba
6. Otho
7. Vitelius

8. Vespasian (little horn)
9. Titus (short reign)
10. Domitian (John's Beast that once was, now was not, and yet will come)


Fits like a glove.

Joe

I don't see how it fits like a glove, who is the 11th horn...or are you lost in your calculation? Rose have a clever idea that would solve that problem and obviously to make it really fit like a glove so as to suit her doctrine...put General Pompey as the 1st king:

Hey Cheow,

You missed my point! I specifically said Pompey the Great was the first powerful ruler of the Roman empire, and Julius Caesar was the first of the Caesars with his great nephew Augustus taking over the position of ruler when Julius was assassinated in 44BC. They were all rulers of the Roman empire....it matters not that they were all called Caesars since that is not specified in Daniel.

If one is to accept the 4th beast of Daniel as representative of the Roman empire then we only have a specific set of rulers to choose from, and the numbers seem to add up.

10 Roman rulers till Vespasian:

1. Pompey
2.Julius
3.Augustus
4.Tiberius
5.Caligula
6.Claudius
7.Nero

8.Galba
9.Otho
10.Vitellius

11. Vespasian



Rose
___________

http://www.biblewheel.com/forum/show...?t=1082&page=8

Great try, now which is which?

Many Blessings.

[Beck]

Your first list is correct.

1. Augustus Caesar
2. Tiberius Caesar
3. Claudius Caesar
4. Caligula Caesar
5. Nero Caesar (John's Beast that "was" / had the fatal neck wound)

Three subdued kings
5. Galba
6. Otho
7. Vitelius

8. Vespasian (little horn)
9. Titus (short reign)
10. Domitian (John's Beast that once was, now was not, and yet will come)


Fits like a glove.

Joe

How so Joe?

The little horn comes after the ten horns [kings] Vespasian is the 8th in this list whom is the eleventh would he be the little horn?

It reads if the ten kings is what Daniel was considering and then another little horn uprooted three horns. It's like having ten teeth and one tooth comes up and removes three teeth. In your list where is the ten and where is the one that uproots? I only see ten.

While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully

[gilgal]

Your first list is correct.

1. Augustus Caesar
2. Tiberius Caesar
3. Claudius Caesar
4. Caligula Caesar
5. Nero Caesar (John's Beast that "was" / had the fatal neck wound)

Three subdued kings
5. Galba
6. Otho
7. Vitelius

8. Vespasian (little horn)
9. Titus (short reign)
10. Domitian (John's Beast that once was, now was not, and yet will come)


Fits like a glove.

Joe

The reason I don't agree with this interpretation, though generally I'm open-minded, is that concerning the ten horns it says this:

Revelation 17
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

In other words the ten horns rule together with the beast for one hour. So this must be something futuristic.

Here's an example of a coat of arms:

A woman rides the beast ():

Note the flag behind the woman's head has 10 visible stars (I guess the other 2 stars are invisible) around the woman's head as a halo. I've seen on billboards a woman with 12 stars as in Revelation 12. We know this as the heavenly Jerusalem but they depict it as the queen of heaven.
And again:

And again:

And again:

Note the 7 hills under the bull which are as waves of water. The woman looks like a harlot.

[TheForgiven]

Originally Posted by TheForgiven
Your first list is correct.

1. Augustus Caesar
2. Tiberius Caesar
3. Claudius Caesar
4. Caligula Caesar
5. Nero Caesar (John's Beast that "was" / had the fatal neck wound)

Three subdued kings
5. Galba
6. Otho
7. Vitelius

8. Vespasian (little horn)
9. Titus (short reign)
10. Domitian (John's Beast that once was, now was not, and yet will come)


Fits like a glove.

Joe

I don't see how it fits like a glove, who is the 11th horn? Rose have a clever idea that would solve that problem and obviously to make it really fit like a glove so as to suit her doctrine...put General Pompey as the 1st king:

That's because I mis-numbered them. You didn't catch that? Of course I didn't until you mentioned I was missing a king.

Sorry bro..typo error.

1. Augustus Caesar
2. Tiberius Caesar
3. Claudius Caesar
4. Caligula Caesar
5. Nero Caesar (John's Beast that "was" / had the fatal neck wound)

Three subdued kings
6. Galba
7. Otho
8. Vitelius

9. Vespasian (little horn)
10. Titus (short reign)
11. Domitian (John's Beast that once was, now was not, and yet will come)

God bless.

Joe

[gilgal]

More on the Coat of Arms of Prince Charles of Wales (since we heard of Prince Williams marriage recently):
http://philologos.org/bpr/files/misc_studies/ms022.htm

[TheForgiven]

How so Joe?

The little horn comes after the ten horns [kings] Vespasian is the 8th in this list whom is the eleventh would he be the little horn?

It reads if the ten kings is what Daniel was considering and then another little horn uprooted three horns. It's like having ten teeth and one tooth comes up and removes three teeth. In your list where is the ten and where is the one that uproots? I only see ten.

While I was thinking about the horns, there before me was another horn, a little one, which came up among them; and three of the first horns were uprooted before it. This horn had eyes like the eyes of a human being and a mouth that spoke boastfully

Think about it. Daniel is thinking about the first of the 10 horns. Then suddenly 3 of the first horns are subdued. Not the first three horns, but three of the first 10 horns. This means that the order of the horns is not the point. The angel is trying to get Daniel's attention about the little horn. How does he do this? By showing that three of the 10 horns were subdued. That's the que and focal point. This was to get him to understand that a future king of the fourth Empire would lies three of it's kings to a another king. This king would succeed in overcoming Daniel's people. Who was this? Vespasian.

So it's not the order of kings that was important, but the reduction of three kings by a little horn responsible for fulfilling the judgements of the Ancient of Days...70AD.

Try not to focus on the order of the horns. The Angel was merely giving Daniel a reference point; the point in time of the Empire that births a king after which three horns were removed. This was clearly Vespasian.

Hope this helps brother.

Joe

[TheForgiven]

Hi GilGal. Keep in mind that the horns we're discussing are Daniel's horns. What you are referring to are the heads of the beast in revelation. The 10 horns on John's beast were roman leaders or generals who were not kings, but served as kings along side the beast. Thus, the 10 horns on the beast are not the same as the 10 horns on Daniel's beast. In John's vision the 7 heads are the kings of the Empire and the 10 horns are sub-kings who do not have an actual kingdom.

Joe

[Beck]

Think about it. Daniel is thinking about the first of the 10 horns. Then suddenly 3 of the first horns are subdued. Not the first three horns, but three of the first 10 horns. This means that the order of the horns is not the point. The angel is trying to get Daniel's attention about the little horn. How does he do this? By showing that three of the 10 horns were subdued. That's the que and focal point. This was to get him to understand that a future king of the fourth Empire would lies three of it's kings to a another king. This king would succeed in overcoming Daniel's people. Who was this? Vespasian.

So it's not the order of kings that was important, but the reduction of three kings by a little horn responsible for fulfilling the judgements of the Ancient of Days...70AD.

Try not to focus on the order of the horns. The Angel was merely giving Daniel a reference point; the point in time of the Empire that births a king after which three horns were removed. This was clearly Vespasian.

Hope this helps brother.

Joe

Joe,

Let me some how explain my thoughts on Daniel. I would like to prepose that Daniel is given these dreams and visions while in captivity of Babylon the beast of the Lion the first of four beast. We can agree that the first three are Babylon, Medo Perisa and Greece, but I would like to show that the four kingdom from out of that third kingdom.

but first lets consider that the beast is shown to have been slain and given to the flames (7:11) and that the rest of the beast (Babylon, Medo Perisa, Greece) had their dominon taken away yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time (7:12).

It is at this time that Daniel see another night vision and said he looked and saw one like the son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and was given a kingdom and dominon. Now most would consider this to be in reference to Jesus as the Son of man ascending to heaven, but if we keep this in context of the beast that was slain it would be speaking about the coming destruction as to coming in clouds. This would be showing that after a season and time the fourth kingdom would be slain. As refering to the coming of the son of man. Just as for reference that is used again by Jesus as the destruction of Jerusalem, but here I am preposing that is in reference to the Seleucid king of Antiochus and according to chapter 11 would seem to fit his end. Chapter 12 the account of the abomination of the sanctuary and the cleaning of the sanctuary.

The interpertation of the vision is then given to Daniel because he was grieved in his spirit and the it troubled him. Thus the little horn rise to power by uprooting three kings and then maded war with the saints and prevailed against them. Until judgment was given to the saints of the most high to possess the kingdom. To me this again would be in view of Antiochus IV as making war with the saints and ruling them for a pointed of 3.5 years until the revolt of Judah Maccabee. The Jewish feast of Hanukkah ("Dedication") commemorates the restoration of Jewish worship at the temple in Jerusalem in 165 BCE, after Judah Maccabee removed the pagan statuary.

This would also aline with Anitochus speaking great words against the most holy place and to think to change times and laws. (I'm not able at this time to give a link to a site that quotes of Meccabees of how Antiochus change laws and so forth) Later in chapter 7 it gives that this little horn is given a time times and dividing of time (1260) the same as in chapter 11. This also fits Anitochus and his reign over Judah.

[Twospirits]

Gilgal

The word 'king' is given to subsidiary rulers in secular writings like Josephus, but "never" in scripture. The word 'king' in scripture is 'basileus' and always means "king," NOT a governor, or prince, or ruler of some sort. The word used for 'leaders, rulers, princes, is 'archon.'


The seven heads spoken of in Rev. 17:9-10 are described as being both seven mountains (oros) and kings (basileus). Mountains also represent kingdoms in scripture, as we see in Jer. 51:25; Dan. 2:35; Ps. 11:1; 30:7; Obadiah vvs. 9-19.

When reading Dan. 2:32,38 and Dan. 7:6,20, we find that the meaning given of the seven 'heads' has the meaning of 'a kingdom.' Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon was 'the head' of gold. The seven 'heads' in Rev. represent 'mountains' which also represent 'kingdoms" and its seven kings.

The ten horns (Rev. 17:10) seen on the Rev beast are the same ten horns (Dan. 7:24) seen on the Daniel beast; they are kings (basileus) not rulers (archon).

God bless---Twospirits