Daniel's little horn another look.

[Beck]

Likewise my friend; it's very good to get a short break from a few radical Futurists. Now we can focus on Preterism without insane distractions...if you know what I mean.

Yeah, I would have hated to continue without you

Now about the fourth kingdom, this is what Daniel is told:

We can see that the fourth kingdom cannot be the Seleucid Empire, primarily because the Son of Man did not come in the clouds of heaven during the Seleucid Dynasty. We also know that the kingdom and dominion was not established during the Seleucid dynasty.

So the primary reason to you is that the son of man did not come in the clouds of heaven during the Seleucid kingdom? Have you now rejected how a Preterist interperts 'son of man coming in clouds'? According to the Maccabees they by the power of God defeated Antiochus IV that little horn that Gabriel interperted to Daniel. Would you not see that as an son of man coming in clouds as an type and shadow, remember if in the time of Antiochus there were abomination of desolation would there might be a son of man that comes in clouds of judgment upon that kingdom? I think that there are many parallels.

So when readying 'son of man' in Daniel 7 I don't think it's necessary to imply that it's speaking of Jesus as the son of man, but it may well be relating to Judah Maccabee as a type of saviour.

Furthermore, Daniel is told that out of this fourth terrible kingdom, would arise 10 horns, plus a little horn, of which the Son of Man would set up a kingdom during the days of "these 10 horn kings".

Joe have you had a chance to read the thread King or Royal if not please do. I think in that thread I show an alternative way to interpert the meaning of King, Melek. in short I believe that word Melek is relating to ten people in high places of which could be priest. The clay mingling with iron three of which Antiochus would have killed are at lease take out of that position.

Please note that Antiochus stood against the prince of princes. One that is much higher in rank that other princes. It is also known that the priest and high priest govern the people of Israel as royal [kingly] priesthood. One that rulers but yet have no kingdom.

Thus, as you can see, the fourth kingdom that the king of Babylon saw in his dream of the image, is the same fourth kingdom that Daniel sees in chapter 7. At both times, the Saints are severely persecuted, and the Son of Man comes in judgment of this terrible fourth kingdom. Notice also that the fourth kingdom is subdued by the Son of Man's kingdom; the Church, and it shall have no end.

I don't disagree that it's the same kingdom, but the church is the church of the old testament. The one that cleaned the temple and begun the feastival of Lights.

So it is now clear that the Seleucid dynasty was not strong enough to fit the description of a terrible beastly kingdom. Antiochus IV was responsible for the Abomination of Desolation that happened for the 2,300 hundred evenings and mornings. But the fourth beast (Rome) would repeat some of what happened during Antiochus IV. The Holy City would be trampled by foreign invaders for 1,290 days, and those surviving to reach and sustain themselves beyond the full 1,335 days would be happy (blessed), for the curse would be over, and the kingdom of righteousness would finally be established.

Great chatting my friend.

Joe

Joe what I'm reading from Daniel would be the type of what was to come that John wrote about as the anti-type. So when reading Daniel I see an fulfillment by Antiohcus and not to force 'Rome' into Daniel's visions. As I made mention that God estabished the one vision by given Daniel double visions that look to be different, but it's one vision. The same happen with Joseph in how he told the Pharaoh that the seven cows are seven years and the seven good ears are seven years. Two dreams of different subjects (cows, ears) but both equal to one vision of seven years.

Daniel is given the first vision of four beast followed by a little horn then Daniel receives another vision of two animals of the Ram and Goat followed by a little horn. Two dreams one vision and if we conclude that the little horn of chapter 8 must be Antiochus then that requires that the little horn of chapter 7 is as well.

This by no means that Revelation don't use the same imagery and used many parallels that Daniel invisioned, but to force Rome into Daniel visions would be missing out on the 'type' that is used throughout the old testament.

[TheForgiven]

I'll respond to more a little later brother Beck. Your points are interesting, but I still do not see the fourth beast of Daniel equating to a division within the Grecian Empire. The Seleucid's were a bad family, more or less, but they were not strong or mighty enough to conquer other nations. When Antiochus IV tried to capture Egypt and plunder its wealth, the Romans put a stop to that in a heart beat. I've given this list before, but just for a refresher, here are the four kingdom leading up to the stone-kingdom that dashes to pieces, the prior kingdoms:

1. Head of Gold - Babylonia
2. Silver arms/chest - Medes and Persians
3. Brass thighs and hips - Greeks
4. Iron legs and feet mixed with clay - Romans
5. Stone that dashes the prior four kingdoms - Church of the Messiah

The Seleucids are a continuation of the Greeks, although a division. It doesn't seem logical to discount the other kingdoms of Greece, while exaggerating on the Seleucid dynasty; they really didn't amount to much except what they did to Jerusalem, however tragic that was.

More to come later.

Joe

P.S. Nice website you've got going on here Richard! Fantastic job!

[Beck]

I'll respond to more a little later brother Beck. Your points are interesting, but I still do not see the fourth beast of Daniel equating to a division within the Grecian Empire. The Seleucid's were a bad family, more or less, but they were not strong or mighty enough to conquer other nations. When Antiochus IV tried to capture Egypt and plunder its wealth, the Romans put a stop to that in a heart beat. I've given this list before, but just for a refresher, here are the four kingdom leading up to the stone-kingdom that dashes to pieces, the prior kingdoms:

1. Head of Gold - Babylonia
2. Silver arms/chest - Medes and Persians
3. Brass thighs and hips - Greeks
4. Iron legs and feet mixed with clay - Romans
5. Stone that dashes the prior four kingdoms - Church of the Messiah

The Seleucids are a continuation of the Greeks, although a division. It doesn't seem logical to discount the other kingdoms of Greece, while exaggerating on the Seleucid dynasty; they really didn't amount to much except what they did to Jerusalem, however tragic that was.

More to come later.

Joe

P.S. Nice website you've got going on here Richard! Fantastic job!

Without getting into great lengths I would say that throughout Daniel all markers point to the fourth kingdom as being Seleucid and Antiochus. Take the repeated description of Daniel 2:40-43 which spoke of the fourth kingdom being of iron and it break all things. Well as I said in a pervious post it's not saying that it stamped and break all kingdoms, but rather the earth.(Israel) Which is how in Daniel 8:10-11 the host of heaven (priest) and the prince of princes (Dan.8:25) the high priest are descibed as being stamped upon and casted down to the ground.

As we look at these 10 kings (Melek) Royal leaders and taking into account that these are the ten toes that are mixed iron and clay it should be clear that the reference to 'clay' is Israel and how that they joined themselves to the iron (Seleucid) is that they alined themselves to followed after Antiochus in his plans of hellenization. Of which we fine that 3 of these priest (melek) was killed are taken out of his position.


This follows the same message that chapter 11 gives that when the Grecian kingdom is divided (Dan.11:4) we are not told about the four divided kingdom of Greece, but only two the South and North(two legs of the image).The picture is that the king of the North (Dan.11:21) Antiochus IV shall stand up he goes to the South and is turned back and then turns his anger toward the holy land.(Dan.11:29-31) In that he when return has intelligence that forsake the holy covenant and in verse 31 said that he (Antiochus) shall pollute the sanctuary and take away the daily to cause the abomination that maketh desolate. So there's no mistaken that Daniel is refering to the fourth kingdom as Seleucid and Antiochus as the little horn.

[TheForgiven]

Again this is all very interesting Beck, and I admire your attempt to harmonize the Prophesy of Daniel to ancient Israel. But you do realize that there's a problem with the following statement:

"Go your way Daniel, for this pertains to the distant future. You will sleep and arise to receive your inheritance".

If we are to assume that the Seleucid was the fourth kingdom of which Daniel was told would be in the distant future, then this wouldn't make that much sense, considering the Seleucid attacks on Jerusalem happened almost 200 years before Christ (about 168 B.C.). This also pushed Christ out of the picture, as well as the seventy sevens, AND we know that Daniel did not rise to receive his inheritence until after Christ was raised.

Another problem is with the metal iron. The Greeks were not accustomed to using iron; it was the Romans who developed Iron, and the Greeks who developed brass. That's why the image seen by Nebuchadnezzar was consistent with the metals used with each successive kingdom; Gold for Babylon, silver for Medes and Persians, Brass for the Greeks, and Iron for the Romans. The elements are a key factor in determining the identity of each kingdom, beginning with the kingdom of Babylon. And so it not possible for the two legs of Iron or feet mixed with iron and clay, to represent the Seleucid Dynasty. And as stated, the Seleucid dynasty was not that strong.

You the have the problem with the two legs of iron and feet mixed with Iron and clay. The Angel tells Daniel that because the clay and iron feet symbolize the weakness of unity (inability to bond together), this would result in the ease of destruction by the stone kingdom that destroys it. What kingdom existed from God that destroyed the Seleucid dynasty? It certainly wasn't the Mosaic covenant as even after the Greeks, they remained in bondage to foreign domination, from Babylon to Rome.

In conclusion, it is not possible for the two legs of Iron and feet mixed with clay, to represent the Seleucid Empire. The iron is a symbol for Rome as it was Rome who developed and used Iron, while the Greeks were known for their extensive use of brass. Thus the Seleucid dynasty made no contributions to iron. The kingdom of Christ was established during the days of the kings from the Roman Empire; clearly a first century event. Therefore, the two legs of iron, also known as Daniel's fourth beast kingdom, was not Grecian, but 100% percent Roman, until the days when Rome began to mix with the races (something that did not happen with the Seleucid dynasty), and thus contributed to their disunity, and allowing the Church to easily gain influence and popularity among its growing converted society into Christianity; the stone that dashed to pieces, Rome and the prior kingdoms.

God bless.

Joe

[Beck]

Again this is all very interesting Beck, and I admire your attempt to harmonize the Prophesy of Daniel to ancient Israel. But you do realize that there's a problem with the following statement:

Thanks Joe, I will say I'm still formulating much of my own understanding and trying to harmonize these Prophesies and visions. I seem to be alone in how I interpert much of these. There is only one other person I know who agrees with me, but he is in school and don't have much time in these forums to discuss his complete view. I haven't found any other author or site that brings this postion out so I press onward.

"Go your way Daniel, for this pertains to the distant future. You will sleep and arise to receive your inheritance".

I like the NKVJ 'But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days." Here Daniel is told to seal the visions up or seal the book until the time of the end. In this particular verse Daniel is told to go his way until the end for then shall he find rest and shall arise to in 'lot' or inheritance which is at the end of the days.

So first shall Daniel go his way until the end? Lets take a look at what that 'end' shall be. The first reference is found in chapter 8 where Gabriel is given to Daniel the interpertations of the second vision of the Ram and Goat with a little horn that comes up.

Daniel 8:17-19
17 So he came near where I stood, and when he came I was afraid and fell on my face; but he said to me, 'Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end.'
18 Now, as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep with my face to the ground; but he touched me, and stood me upright. 19 And he said, 'Look, I am making known to you what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation; for at the appointed time the end shall be.

So what vision was refered to as the end? It was that of the Seleucid kingdom of which Antiochus was to pollute the sanctuary and take away the daily.

Lets continue, and we find that Daniel again gives a reference to the end or the latter days in chapter 10 of which he spoke of the latter days being when the prince of Persia and the prince of Gercia come.

Daniel 10:13-14, 20-21
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia. 14 Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision refers to many days yet to come.'

20 Then he said, 'Do you know why I have come to you? And now I must return to fight with the prince of Persia; and when I have gone forth, indeed the prince of Greece will come. 21 But I will tell you what is noted in the Scripture of Truth. (No one upholds me against these, except Michael your prince.

Notice the end would not come while the prince of Perisa, but when the prince of Grecia shall come, so at that time for Daniel it was still yet future. For one thing was to happen and that was that his people would have to return to the holy land and that happens by Cyrus the Persian. The end would not come until the prince of Greece came and their return to the holy land.

If we are to assume that the Seleucid was the fourth kingdom of which Daniel was told would be in the distant future, then this wouldn't make that much sense, considering the Seleucid attacks on Jerusalem happened almost 200 years before Christ (about 168 B.C.). This also pushed Christ out of the picture, as well as the seventy sevens, AND we know that Daniel did not rise to receive his inheritence until after Christ was raised.

As I understand to stand in thy lot is to say to stand or remain in your postion until the end come, for when that day come you will know becasue of wisdom of your understanding of these visions. Blessed is he who remains faithful unto the end of 1335 days.

Another problem is with the metal iron. The Greeks were not accustomed to using iron; it was the Romans who developed Iron, and the Greeks who developed brass. That's why the image seen by Nebuchadnezzar was consistent with the metals used with each successive kingdom; Gold for Babylon, silver for Medes and Persians, Brass for the Greeks, and Iron for the Romans. The elements are a key factor in determining the identity of each kingdom, beginning with the kingdom of Babylon. And so it not possible for the two legs of Iron or feet mixed with iron and clay, to represent the Seleucid Dynasty. And as stated, the Seleucid dynasty was not that strong.

You the have the problem with the two legs of iron and feet mixed with Iron and clay. The Angel tells Daniel that because the clay and iron feet symbolize the weakness of unity (inability to bond together), this would result in the ease of destruction by the stone kingdom that destroys it. What kingdom existed from God that destroyed the Seleucid dynasty? It certainly wasn't the Mosaic covenant as even after the Greeks, they remained in bondage to foreign domination, from Babylon to Rome.

The iron may not be there to represent the kingdom of Seleucid, but rather the Hellenistic kingdom which regined in both the south and north divisions therefore are seen as two legs of which it's ten toes was mixed.

In conclusion, it is not possible for the two legs of Iron and feet mixed with clay, to represent the Seleucid Empire. The iron is a symbol for Rome as it was Rome who developed and used Iron, while the Greeks were known for their extensive use of brass. Thus the Seleucid dynasty made no contributions to iron. The kingdom of Christ was established during the days of the kings from the Roman Empire; clearly a first century event. Therefore, the two legs of iron, also known as Daniel's fourth beast kingdom, was not Grecian, but 100% percent Roman, until the days when Rome began to mix with the races (something that did not happen with the Seleucid dynasty), and thus contributed to their disunity, and allowing the Church to easily gain influence and popularity among its growing converted society into Christianity; the stone that dashed to pieces, Rome and the prior kingdoms.

God bless.

Joe

As I stated it may well be an representation of Hellenistic kingdom.

[TheForgiven]

I like the NKVJ 'But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days." Here Daniel is told to seal the visions up or seal the book until the time of the end. In this particular verse Daniel is told to go his way until the end for then shall he find rest and shall arise to in 'lot' or inheritance which is at the end of the days.

Now be careful. When did (or would) Daniel rise to receive His reward? You can't say after the end of the Seleucid Empire because we know that nobody rose in that time frame. He died (rested), and would rise to receive his inheritance at the time of the end (30AD or 70AD), and we know that his rising up would not be possible until Christ. So it's just not possible to force this interpretation to the time of the end of the kingdom of Greece.

Furthermore, if you read Daniel chapter 8, "the time of the end" is not the same as in Chapter 12. Chapter 8 deals specifically with Antiochus IV and V. But notice that Daniel is not told to seal up this set of visions, nor was he told that he would rise to receive his reward during this "time of the end". Chapter 8 deals specifically with the Medes and Persians, and the time of the end of the Grecian persecution from Antiochus IV and V. But this is not the same "end" as recorded in Daniel 12.

Kudo's for pointing this out though...this shows you're really paying attention.

Daniel 8:

13 Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, 'How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the host to be trampled underfoot?'
14 And he said to me, 'For two thousand three hundred days;[a] then the sanctuary shall be cleansed.'

This period is not included with the "time of the end" as recorded in Daniel 12. This is the period when the Greeks under Antiochus IV desecrated the temple. After the death of Antiochus IV, Antiochus V also attempted to desecrate the temple (Maccabees 3). I'd recommend reading Maccabees 1, 2, and 3.

The Ram represents the Medes and Persians, and the He-Goat that came after the Ram represented the kingdom of Greece. The little horn that was broken off was Alexander the Great; the four that grew in its place were His generals (Greece divided into four rulers).

So first shall Daniel go his way until the end? Lets take a look at what that 'end' shall be. The first reference is found in chapter 8 where Gabriel is given to Daniel the interpertations of the second vision of the Ram and Goat with a little horn that comes up.

Daniel 8:17-19
17 So he came near where I stood, and when he came I was afraid and fell on my face; but he said to me, 'Understand, son of man, that the vision refers to the time of the end.'
18 Now, as he was speaking with me, I was in a deep sleep with my face to the ground; but he touched me, and stood me upright. 19 And he said, 'Look, I am making known to you what shall happen in the latter time of the indignation; for at the appointed time the end shall be.

So what vision was refered to as the end? It was that of the Seleucid kingdom of which Antiochus was to pollute the sanctuary and take away the daily.

I see what you're doing now. All references to the phrase "time of the end" are being jumbled into one single event. Be careful because this is not the case. Each kingdom that persecuted the Jews had a predetermined "end to the indignation". The Greeks, and then the Romans both had "times of the end". With the Greeks, the indignation would last for 2,300 mornings and evenings. While the time of the end with the Romans would last 1,290 days + another 45 for those who survived to see that day. The time of the end is not the end of the Jewish people, but the end of the indignation from each kingdom in question. Daniel 8 deals with the Greeks, while Daniel 12 (1,290 days) deals with the Romans. It was during "this end" in chapter 12, that Daniel was told to seal up the vision because it pertained to the distant future. While the time of the end in chapter 8 was not so distant, and dealt with the time frame of the Greeks. The end, in both cases, involved the period of indignation from both the Greeks and the Romans (distant future). Daniel was not told that he would rise to receive his reward at the end of the indignation from the Greeks; he would rise to receive his reward at the "distant future" indignation from the fourth kingdom, the Roman Empire who's indignation upon the Holy City would last for 1,290 days.

Lets continue, and we find that Daniel again gives a reference to the end or the latter days in chapter 10 of which he spoke of the latter days being when the prince of Persia and the prince of Gercia come.

Daniel 10:13-14, 20-21
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me twenty-one days; and behold, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, for I had been left alone there with the kings of Persia. 14 Now I have come to make you understand what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision refers to many days yet to come.'

20 Then he said, 'Do you know why I have come to you? And now I must return to fight with the prince of Persia; and when I have gone forth, indeed the prince of Greece will come. 21 But I will tell you what is noted in the Scripture of Truth. (No one upholds me against these, except Michael your prince.

Notice the end would not come while the prince of Perisa, but when the prince of Grecia shall come, so at that time for Daniel it was still yet future. For one thing was to happen and that was that his people would have to return to the holy land and that happens by Cyrus the Persian. The end would not come until the prince of Greece came and their return to the holy land.

Notice that this was not the "distant future", but "his future". While in Daniel 12, he was told that the indignation to happen then would be in the distant future, and thus was commanded to seal up the vision. He was not commanded to seal up chapter 8 visions, but he was told to seal up chapter 12 vision because that pertained to time-frame well into the future.

The key to understanding this my friend is that Daniel is speaking of four distinct kingdoms. The Babylonians were the first kingdom, then came the Medes and Persians (Chapter 8), then came the Greeks (also chapter 8 and 10-11), and finally the sealed visions of the distant future (chapter 12) which dealt with the Romans. The only clue we're given about the Romans was in Daniel 9 in speaking of the seventy sevens, and also with the fourth beast which had 10 horns, of which the God of heaven would set up a kingdom during the days of those kings:

Daniel 2:44

44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

What kings? We know from Daniel 2 that this was in reference to the fourth beast:

40 And the fourth kingdom shall be as strong as iron, inasmuch as iron breaks in pieces and shatters everything; and like iron that crushes, that kingdom will break in pieces and crush all the others. 41 Whereas you saw the feet and toes, partly of potter’s clay and partly of iron, the kingdom shall be divided; yet the strength of the iron shall be in it, just as you saw the iron mixed with ceramic clay. 42 And as the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly fragile. 43 As you saw iron mixed with ceramic clay, they will mingle with the seed of men; but they will not adhere to one another, just as iron does not mix with clay. 44 And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever

As you can clearly see, none of this fits with the Seleucid Dynasty for the following reasons:

1. Greece was not recognized by the "iron" imagery; this was clearly Rome.
2. The God of heaven did not set-up a kingdom during the days of the Seleucid dynasty
3. The Seleucid Dynasty was not a "fourth" kingdom, but a continuation of the 3rd kingdom.
4. The Saints did not posses the kingdom "forever"; a kingdom that was not yet established until Christ, being roughly 200 years after the Seleucid Dynasty
5. The Seleucid Empire was not comprised of a "mixed" race; these were strictly Grecian. Yet the Roman Empire, during the days of Christ, was a mixed Empire from Italians, Spaniards, Greeks, Romans, Jews, etc.
6. The Seleucid Dynasty was not strong enough to defeat any other nations as is suggested in this passage selection.

In conclusion folks, the fourth beast kingdom is clearly Roman. Each mention of the "time of the end" is not a single time/event. Each indignation would have "an end". The indignation of Antiochus IV and V came to its end and the temple was cleaned/restored to its normal priesthood. This indignation lasted for 2,300 evenings and mornings. The time of the end under the Romans lasted for 1,290 days, and involved a similar indignation as with Antiochus IV and V. This was not a repeat of the indignation, but similar in that with both "end times", the temple was desecrated. Therefore, the time of the end during Antiochus IV came to its end when God cast judgment upon Antiochus V for having attempted to enter the temple, and thus the temple was restored. Then the 2nd indignation came to its end, lasting for 1,290 days, when the Romans surrounded Jerusalem (Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Daniel 12) as a great flood, and the temple was not restored; it was destroyed. Daniel 8's "time of the end" mentioned that the temple would be restored, while Daniel 9 mentions that the sanctuary would be destroyed, which happens as recorded in chapter 12 "daily" being removed, and the temple being destroyed. But Daniel was not told all of its details because chapter 12 pertained to the distant future.

Hope this helps.

God bless.

Joe

[Beck]

Now be careful. When did (or would) Daniel rise to receive His reward? You can't say after the end of the Seleucid Empire because we know that nobody rose in that time frame. He died (rested), and would rise to receive his inheritance at the time of the end (30AD or 70AD), and we know that his rising up would not be possible until Christ. So it's just not possible to force this interpretation to the time of the end of the kingdom of Greece.

Well as you may know I conclude that 'all' of Daniel is dealing with the Seleucid kingdom of Antiochus IV. When we read in chapter 11:32-35 of those that do wickedly against the covenant shall he (Antiochus) deceive them by flatteries. To them that understand having wisdom shall teach others but yet themselves fall by the sword, flame and captivity many days. And some shall be proven through much persecution and pursed and made white. Even to the every end and that time is yet for a time appointed. (future from Daniels vision which is in the first year of Darius the Median)

I would conclude that the end is again mention in verse 40 "and at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him and the king of the north shall come against him..." Looking at the flow of writting it was Antiochus menation of in verse 32 and the king mention of 36 and then again referred to as the jing of the north in earlier verse and again here in verse 40. The writting continues with 'and' in chapter 12 which said that at this time of trouble that many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake... That is the way I would related that Daniel himself was to 'rise' and receive his lot. In other words those that sleep in the earth is those that are unlearned those which don't understand, but as the verses in chapter 11 indicated that they will be taught to understand and they shall shine as light of the stars in the heavens. This language is symbolic which we can interpert some within the writting of Daniel. For instance the stars are in reference to those in high places as the preist (Dan.8:10-12) also an indication can be found in Isaiah 24:21 of the host of the high ones. Those stars are to shine the light of understanding that same thing is given to Daniel by sealing up the books until that appointed time and then open the words of God to bring understanding that if they would only remain faithful it would end in 1335 days.

I see what you're doing now. All references to the phrase "time of the end" are being jumbled into one single event. Be careful because this is not the case. Each kingdom that persecuted the Jews had a predetermined "end to the indignation". The Greeks, and then the Romans both had "times of the end". With the Greeks, the indignation would last for 2,300 mornings and evenings. While the time of the end with the Romans would last 1,290 days + another 45 for those who survived to see that day. The time of the end is not the end of the Jewish people, but the end of the indignation from each kingdom in question. Daniel 8 deals with the Greeks, while Daniel 12 (1,290 days) deals with the Romans. It was during "this end" in chapter 12, that Daniel was told to seal up the vision because it pertained to the distant future. While the time of the end in chapter 8 was not so distant, and dealt with the time frame of the Greeks. The end, in both cases, involved the period of indignation from both the Greeks and the Romans (distant future). Daniel was not told that he would rise to receive his reward at the end of the indignation from the Greeks; he would rise to receive his reward at the "distant future" indignation from the fourth kingdom, the Roman Empire who's indignation upon the Holy City would last for 1,290 days.

Again I fell to see any reference by name or by symbolizm to denote Rome. If one agrees that the end comes by the defeating of the fourth beast and it's little horn then that is maded clear by Daniel in his double dreams of the Seleucid kingdom there's no need to force Rome into his dreams. You do again that God estabished the vision of the fourth beast by given Daniel a double dream confirmation?

The key to understanding this my friend is that Daniel is speaking of four distinct kingdoms. The Babylonians were the first kingdom, then came the Medes and Persians (Chapter 8), then came the Greeks (also chapter 8 and 10-11), and finally the sealed visions of the distant future (chapter 12) which dealt with the Romans. The only clue we're given about the Romans was in Daniel 9 in speaking of the seventy sevens, and also with the fourth beast which had 10 horns, of which the God of heaven would set up a kingdom during the days of those kings:

so in your view Rome is that fourth beast kingdom which is divided into two legs and ten toes? Do you see the eastern and western captials of the Roman Emprie as being these two legs? Just how is that possible what then do you make of Ad70?

As you can clearly see, none of this fits with the Seleucid Dynasty for the following reasons:

1. Greece was not recognized by the "iron" imagery; this was clearly Rome.

I would believe that the description of the metals where not fashioned to symbolize that kingdom, but that kingdoms power of the people. Babylon being gold don't denote that the kingdom was known for it gold, but that gold is a known 'hard' metal. Where as the those metals are much softer that is why king Nebuchaddnezzar was said to be the 'king of kings'. Now then looking at the iron metal it is soft but not soft enough to be mixed with clay and remain strong. As I stated earlier I believe it maybe refering to the 'power' of that fourth kingdom and if Seleucid that reference would be of Hellenization. this is were the clay is mingled together with iron [Hellenization] and the kingdom shall be partly broken and partly strong being that the Jews where accepting the Greek way of thinking.

2. The God of heaven did not set-up a kingdom during the days of the Seleucid dynasty

That kingdom of God was those that remain faithful even unto the end as being the true remnant. Those that shown the light of God by their testimony of God. I believe this is what is meant by them shining as the stars of heaven. In my understanding Joe these would be one half of the two witnesses that John menationed in Revelation. These remain faithful and prophesied the words of God for a time, times and half.

3. The Seleucid Dynasty was not a "fourth" kingdom, but a continuation of the 3rd kingdom.

There again that would require that there are two little horns, but Daniel never mentions two different ones.

4. The Saints did not posses the kingdom "forever"; a kingdom that was not yet established until Christ, being roughly 200 years after the Seleucid Dynasty

That kingdom or church was estabished in the wilderness and while there remain a true and faithful remnant
that kingdom of God is forever.

5. The Seleucid Empire was not comprised of a "mixed" race; these were strictly Grecian. Yet the Roman Empire, during the days of Christ, was a mixed Empire from Italians, Spaniards, Greeks, Romans, Jews, etc.

That's a misunderstanding of the text of the ten toes being mixed with iron and clay.

6. The Seleucid Dynasty was not strong enough to defeat any other nations as is suggested in this passage selection.

Not sure about this according to that text.

[TheForgiven]

so in your view Rome is that fourth beast kingdom which is divided into two legs and ten toes? Do you see the eastern and western captials of the Roman Emprie as being these two legs? Just how is that possible what then do you make o70?

The two legs do not mean division; that's just a normal picture of the image which was an image of a man. I know Futurists teach that the two legs of iron must mean a divided kingdom, but if that's the case, then what about the two eyes on the head of gold representing Babylon? The two legs are just that; two legs, but this does not mean that Rome is divided.

Rome with the two legs represents the time-frame from the Greeks to the birth of Christ. The two iron feet mixed with clay and its 10 toes is the same as Daniel's fourth beast with 10 horns. The 10 toes represents the kings, while the iron and clay represent Rome's racial diversity; i.e. Spaniards, Italians, Romans, Greeks, Jews, Babylonians, Egyptians, Arabs, etc; all of these nations and races were under the dominion and control of the entire Roman Empire. When the Angel told Daniel that the fourth beast possessing iron and clay feet represented its "mixing of seeds/races", he was explaining that this racial division would result in the collapse of this kingdom. During the days of the 10 toes (kings of Rome), Jesus established the kingdom of God, from His Baptism, to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70AD; hence, the 40 year period. The fourth Beast is eventually killed, and the Church gained control over the entire Roman Empire. The Apostles were the ones who spread the kingdom to the Roman world, and thus the fulfillment of Daniel's four beast kingdom was completed.

We're kind of skipping around a bit. But you are partly right, and partly wrong. Daniel is given information about Rome with his four beast visions. But the vision of the Ram and the He Goat pertained to the time not so distant from his day; this involved the Persians and the Greeks. It is true that up until Chapter 11, Daniel is shown a vision of rebellious Jews who attempted to fight against Antiochus IV. But chapter 12 gives us a hint of the Roman Empire, but not much was given to Daniel in exact detail because it pertained to his distant future. Thus he was told not to worry about it, but to forget about the vision, and go his way; it did not involve him.

I'd say the majority of Daniel begins with the Babylonian invasion, and primarily ends with the reign of Antiochus IV. Daniel, wanting to know more and the outcome of all the visions, was told to forget about it; the outcome involved what would happen during the days of Christ. I believe it was sealed, until it was revealed in Revelation. Thus, Revelation unseals what Daniel was told to forget about.

Joe

[Beck]

We're kind of skipping around a bit. But you are partly right, and partly wrong. Daniel is given information about Rome with his four beast visions. But the vision of the Ram and the He Goat pertained to the time not so distant from his day; this involved the Persians and the Greeks. It is true that up until Chapter 11, Daniel is shown a vision of rebellious Jews who attempted to fight against Antiochus IV. But chapter 12 gives us a hint of the Roman Empire, but not much was given to Daniel in exact detail because it pertained to his distant future. Thus he was told not to worry about it, but to forget about the vision, and go his way; it did not involve him.

Joe

Can you provide us this hint of the Roman Empire? As I stated given the history of the two kingdoms of the southern (Egypt) and northern (Syria) kingdoms of which by following the history recorded in Daniel we can be confidence that when it stated:


KING OF THE NORTH AND KING OF THE SOUTH


Daniel 11:17-19 ANTHIOCHUS III GAVE DAUGTHER TO PTOLEMY V
17He shall also set his face to enter with the strength of his whole kingdom, and upright ones with him; thus shall he do: and he shall give him the daughter of women, corrupting her: but she shall not stand on his side, neither be for him.
18After this shall he turn his face unto the isles, and shall take many: but a prince for his own behalf shall cause the reproach offered by him to cease; without his own reproach he shall cause it to turn upon him.
19Then he shall turn his face toward the fort of his own land: but he shall stumble and fall, and not be found.


Daniel 11:20tHEN ONE SHALL STAND UP IN HIS ESTATE~SELEUCUS PHILOPATOR
20Then shall stand up in his estate a raiser of taxes in the glory of the kingdom: but within few days he shall be destroyed, neither in anger, nor in battle.


Daniel 11:21 ONE SHALL STAND UP IN HIS PLACE A VILE PERSON~ANTIOCHUS IV
21And in his estate shall stand up a vile person, to whom they shall not give the honour of the kingdom: but he shall come in peaceably, and obtain the kingdom by flatteries.


Take notice each time another person comes into the kingdom of the north it was noted as one shall stand up in his place or estate. As we follow along this revealed history we don't find any more mention of another person standing up to serve as king of the north, so the last king that is mentioned in chapter 11 is that of Antiochus IV.

He is the one that came to the holy land and polluted the sancturay and took away the daily. When we continue to read the remaining prophesy we come to verse 36 where it mentioned 'And the king' which would denote once again that king of the north Antiochus IV.


Daniel 11:36
36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.


This continues in reference to that king of the north in verses 36-45 and then we come to chapter 12 which is again only a continuation of that king and of that time.


Daniel 12:1-3
1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
2And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.


The references only constitute that of the king of the north of which is that time of trouble upon the people of Daniel after they have came back to their land and begun to rebuild the city, temple and offer their sacrifices to God. So again I see no mention or hint of Rome only that fourth kingdom and it little horn of Antiochus IV.

[TheForgiven]

45 And he shall plant the tents of his palace between the seas and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and no one will help him.

Daniel chapter 11 verse 40 tells us that Antiochus IV, whom I believe the Angel was referring to here, would die. History records that nobody was able to help him because he suffered a stupid accident that resulted in the most horrible smell that even he had a difficult time handling. Antiochus IV fell off of his Chariot, and damaged his insides so badly, more than likely his lower intestines or colon, that a horrible smell so bad that people avoided him wherever he went. Even at his death, he basically admit that dying is much better than having to deal with his odor.

Thus ends the reign of Antiochus IV. This takes us to chapter 12:

1 'At that time Michael shall stand up,
The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people;
And there shall be a time of trouble,
Such as never was since there was a nation,
Even to that time.
And at that time your people shall be delivered,
Every one who is found written in the book.
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament,
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

If Antiochus IV is recorded to have died in the previous chapter, how can we conclude that chapter 12 continues on with his persecution, which we know does not match history. His persecution of the Jews stopped before his injury from his chariot. And that happened at the end of chapter 11. Thus, Chapter 12 begins with, "Michael shall stand up; the great prince who watches over the sons of your people......and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never since there was a nation, even to that time.."

Jesus repeated these words in the Gospels:

15 'Therefore when you see the ‘abomination of desolation,’[c] spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place' (whoever reads, let him understand), 16 'then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let him who is on the housetop not go down to take anything out of his house. 18 And let him who is in the field not go back to get his clothes. 19 But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! 20 And pray that your flight may not be in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.

Daniel is a bit confused with what the Angel is telling him in Chapter 12. And so he asks, "What shall become of all this?" The Angel thus instructs:

8 Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, 'My lord, what shall be the end of these things?'
9 And he said, 'Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.
11 'And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. 12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.
13 'But you, go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days.'

Go your way....you will sleep....you will rise to your inheritance at the end of the days. This is the AoD that lasts for 1,290 days plus the additional 45 days. This AoD is not the same as the one Antiochus inflicted for the 2,300 evenings and mornings. And as I've stated, Antiochus IV is killed as recorded in Daniel 11:40.

When we read, "at that time", this doesn't mean like the very next day, or a few weeks later. Antiochus IV died about 164 years prior to the crucifixion of Christ, which would make it about 120 to 130 days prior to the birth of Christ. I'd say this more than constitutes "at that time".

I know the Angel was being tight lipped about the exact AoD details from the Romans, but it was with good reason. He was told to "seal it up"; it would be revealed at a later time, which is what Revelation unveiled.

I sure hope we can get on the same page now. I need more Preterists like you my friend before we go back to debating with Futurists.

Joe