Daniel's little horn another look.

[Beck]

Hey guys and gals

I wanted for us to take another look at Daniel's reference to a "little horn". Daniel gives reference to the kingdom of this little horn as the beast in chapters 2 and 7 which parallel's in that it's an image of four beast. And through histroy we have come to agree to the most part that these four beast kingdoms represent the following kingdoms.


THE IMAGE OF A MAN.

1) HEAD = Babylon
2) BREAST & ARMS = Medo Perisa
3) BELLY & THIGHTS = Greece
4) LEG & FEET = Rome (?)

This picture image of the man is used in a couple of different ways with in Daniel. As here in chapter 2 of the man image as again in chapter 7 of the four beast.


THE FOUR BEASTS OUT OF THE SEA

1) LION = Babylon
2) BEAR = Medo Perisa
3) LEOPARD = Greece
4) FOUR BEAST = Rome (?)

Again in chapter 8 we can fine the same reference to kingdoms as beast. Here Daniel described a Ram, He Goat and a little horn.


VISION OF THREE BEAST

1)RAM = Medo Perisa
2)HE GOAT = Greece
3)LITTLE HORN = (?)

Now when we come to the beast that is refered to as a 'little horn' of chapter 8 again most would agree it's a reference to the SELEUCID EMPIRE with Antiochus IV that came and polluted the sanctuary for a number of days and after that number of days the people would clean the sanctuary for use again.

So my question is why do most agree that the fourth beast is Rome? Would it not seen more toward the Seleucid Empire. Could we not say that Antiochus IV fuflilled those things prophesied of the little horn as to subdue three kings.

Under this scenario the fourth beast is the Seleucid empire that resulted from the break up of Alexander’s kingdom. It was this empire that ruled Judah during the Maccabean times.


The 10 horns represent the kings as follows: (1) Seleucus I (2) Antiochus I (3) Antiochus II (4) Seleucus II (5) Seleucus III (6) Antiochus III (7) Seleucus IV (8, 9, and 10) Demetrius, Heliodorus, and Seleucus IV’s infant son.

Demetrius, Heliodorus, Seleucus IV’s infant son are not usually listed as kings, but they were significant figures in intrigue of the day. Seleucus IV was king, but his coffers were running low. He sent out his finance minister Heliodorus to seize money from the temple treasury in Jerusalem. Heliodorus had designs on the throne himself and conspired with Seleucus IV’s eldest son, Demetrius. He poisoned Seleucus IV. Next in line would have been Demetrius. However, Antiochus IV (Antiochus Epiphanes) conspired to have Demetrius sent away to Rome. He also successfully plotted the death of Heliodorus and Seleucus IV’s infant son, leaving no heir to the throne. This left the path open for Antiochus IV to gain control of the Seleucid empire.

So Antiochus IV would be the little horn that displaces the other three. How well does he fit the role?

[TheForgiven]

THE IMAGE OF A MAN.

1) HEAD = Babylon
2) BREAST & ARMS = Medo Perisa
3) BELLY & THIGHTS = Greece
4) LEG & FEET = Rome (?)

This picture image of the man is used in a couple of different ways with in Daniel. As here in chapter 2 of the man image as again in chapter 7 of the four beast.


THE FOUR BEASTS OUT OF THE SEA

1) LION = Babylon
2) BEAR = Medo Perisa
3) LEOPARD = Greece
4) FOUR BEAST = Rome (?)

Again in chapter 8 we can fine the same reference to kingdoms as beast. Here Daniel described a Ram, He Goat and a little horn.

These are all correct. And Rome was indeed the last kingdom, as represented by the iron legs/feet and 10 toes. I believe the 10 toes represented the Caesars; the kings that existed during the generation of Christ, who established the kingdom (Church) during the days of those kings.

VISION OF THREE BEAST

1)RAM = Medo Perisa
2)HE GOAT = Greece
3)LITTLE HORN = (?)

The Ram is correct; Medes and Persians as is also recorded in the book of Daniel. The "He Goat" is definitely Greece. This He Goat possessed a large single horn representing Alexander the Great. The large single horn was broken off, and divided into four horns, representing Greece being divided into four kingdoms after Alexander's death.

The "little horn" is Antiochus IV Ephiphanes who exalted himself above God, and all that is called god, and by his very name, declared himself to be divine. It is he who over-powered the Saints, and persecuted many of them. Those who "knew their God" remained faithful and received a little help (referring to the Jewish rebels). But they would be tried, purified, and cleaned in preparation for the day they would be revealed "at the time of the end", thus referring to their resurrection, of which Daniel would also partake.

I'd like you to take note of something. Notice how Daniel 8:14 says that the morning and evening sacrifices are taken away for 2,300 days. But in chapter 12 its a total of 1290 days from the time that evening and morning sacrifices are taken away, and not 2,300 evenings and mornings.

Ever wonder why they are different?

The answer is in you bro...I know you can figure this one out.

Joe

[Beck]

These are all correct. And Rome was indeed the last kingdom, as represented by the iron legs/feet and 10 toes. I believe the 10 toes represented the Caesars; the kings that existed during the generation of Christ, who established the kingdom (Church) during the days of those kings.

Hi Joe,

Could it possibly be refering to that kingdom after Greece of which Alexander the Great kingdom was divided into four kingdoms. As a reference to Daniel 7:6 as having four heads. One of these kingdoms would come the little horn of Antiochus IV which was the Seleucid kingdom. His kingdom wasn't Roman but Grecian. That would be consistance with the image of the man that the fourth kingdom after the Greeks would have ten horns and one little horn that would subdue three kings. Again this tells of Antiochus IV as being the little horn.

My question then was why do most accept that the fourth beast kingdom is Rome? When viewing from Daniel it would be pointing to the kingdom of the little horn and we have defined him as Antiochus IV.

The Ram is correct; Medes and Persians as is also recorded in the book of Daniel. The "He Goat" is definitely Greece. This He Goat possessed a large single horn representing Alexander the Great. The large single horn was broken off, and divided into four horns, representing Greece being divided into four kingdoms after Alexander's death.

The "little horn" is Antiochus IV Ephiphanes who exalted himself above God, and all that is called god, and by his very name, declared himself to be divine. It is he who over-powered the Saints, and persecuted many of them. Those who "knew their God" remained faithful and received a little help (referring to the Jewish rebels). But they would be tried, purified, and cleaned in preparation for the day they would be revealed "at the time of the end", thus referring to their resurrection, of which Daniel would also partake.

I'd like you to take note of something. Notice how Daniel 8:14 says that the morning and evening sacrifices are taken away for 2,300 days. But in chapter 12 its a total of 1290 days from the time that evening and morning sacrifices are taken away, and not 2,300 evenings and mornings.

I have noticed, but my question comes from our interpertation of the little horn that would come out among the ten horns. This in relationship to the fourth beast of Daniel 2 with the toes (10). Doen't Daniel define Antiochus IV as coming from the forth beast?


Lets consider how Daniel used the image to reveal that the heads of the beast was kingdoms as per Daniel 7:6 & 8:22 and the horns of that kingdom was the kings per 8:21-22. Reviewing then chapter 7 of the fourth beast as to having ten horns (kings) and another little one horn (king) out of this kingdom. If we then claim that Antiochus IV is that little horn then whom are the three kings that we subdued from that kingdom? As stated above:

(1) Seleucus I (2) Antiochus I (3) Antiochus II (4) Seleucus II (5) Seleucus III (6) Antiochus III (7) Seleucus IV (8, 9, and 10) Demetrius, Heliodorus, and Seleucus IV’s infant son.


Why then do some claim this to be Rome (As I have). Even that they were given into his hand (Antiochus IV) until a time and times and dividing of time.(1260) (Daniel 7:25)

Now I know that from what Jesus spoke of the abomination that maketh desolated according to Daniel that it would seem that these beasts foreshadow or to be a typology of the End. Where in the book of Revelation John saw a beast coming out of the sea. Is this to be understand to be the very same fourth beast or only a beast that has the image of those earlier beasts. Knowing that Antiochus was a type of a prince that was to come after the cutting off of the Messiah. So I'm not so sure we can say that the fourth beast is the same as the beast in Revelation. (ie Rome)

[TheForgiven]

OK let's try to answer these one at a time.

First and foremost, don't confuse the "horns" of the He Goat and the Horrible Beast.

In Daniel 8 we see a vision of a He Goat with a single huge horn. This was Alexander the Great who defeated the Medes and Persians. But after his death, the one big horn was broken into four smaller horns; these were still Grecian, so they are not Daniel's 4th Beast kingdom; they are still part of the He Goat. Out of the four horns, a smaller one came to power; this is the one who causes the AoD lasting for 2,300 evenings and morning, as also recognized in Daniel 11:36.

Then there is a little horn noticed on the 4th Beast of Daniel, with teeth like iron, and who subdued 3 of it's prior horns; this is believed to be Emperor Vespasian of Rome, who ended up succeeding the throne of Rome after the failed attempts of Glaba, Ottho, and Vitelius which took place in 69AD.

Now Vespasian, as the little horn of the 4th Beast kingdom is not the one who causes the AoD Jesus mentioned. This would be Titus, who would be responsible for the AoD lasting for 1,290 days.

See the difference? There were four kingdoms:

1. Babylon
2. Medes / Persians
3. Greece 1 being divided into Greece 4, which then gives birth to a little horn from among the 4 horns who was Antiochus IV-causes AoD for 2,300 evenings and mornings
4. Rome - days of the 10 kings/toes - one little horn subdues 3 prior kings (Vespasian) and who also caused the removal of the sacrifices for the 1,290 days (although it was his son Titus who led this campaign).

Make sense now?

Thus, the answer to the difference between the 2,300 evenings and morning, to the 1,290 days is these are both two time-frames of when the sacrifices would be stopped; one with Antiochus IV (2,300 evenings and mornings), and the other with Titus (1,290 days).

I hadn't realize this connection until a few days ago when I noticed that the stopping of the sacrifices were of different duration. That's when I made the connection. Thus, Daniel 11 is about Antiochus IV, and Daniel 12 is about the tribulation the Jews faced during Vespasian in care of Titus; both times there was an AoD.

It appears that the Angel was giving Daniel a set of visions that paralleled the events of the Jews by the Greeks, and also by the Romans; both were of near perfect match, with some differences of course, particularly with the amount of time the evening and morning sacrifices were taken away. Greece caused the AoD as recorded in Daniel 8 and 11. Daniel 12 is entirely about Rome, during the appointed "time of the end", of which time Daniel, and those who suffered during Antiochus IV, were raised to shine like the stars of heaven.

Another thing I noted about both AoD accounts. In both circumstances, it wasn't just their (Jews) enemies who caused the temple to be profaned; it was the Jews themselves. During Antiochus IV, there were Hellenistic Jews who abandoned the Covenant, and committed "abominations" on the altar of God, although it was Antiochus IV who placed the image of Zeus in the temple. In the same way, there were false Jews during the Jewish civil war in the 60's AD, of which who were responsible for performing "abominations' on the altar of God; they were sacrificing priestly Jews on the altar by slitting their throats. And like Antiochus IV, Titus also placed the image of Rome (an Eagle) on the temple.

Praise God for His marvelous wonders!

Joe

[Beck]

Dan. 7 describes the fourth beast and the little horn being destroyed first, and then the son of man ascending into heaven. So that fits that Antiochus IV was killed before Jesus was even born. What wouldn't fit as nicely is if the fourth beast is the Roman Empire, or some future empire.

[TheForgiven]

Babylonian Empire



Medes / Persians:



Kingdom of Greece



And finally, Rome (Little Horn is Vespasian) who was given authority to trample the Saints



The end result of all this is judgment poured out upon Daniel's people; those deserving of life were delivered, and they (The Saints) were given the Kingdom which shall have no end; the rest were judged. The kingdom that overtakes these beasts is the Church.

Joe

[Beck]

But tell me, why would ch. 7 end with Daniel saying that he was going to continue to keep his thoughts on the little horn, and then in ch. 8 start by explaining that this was a second vision in line with the first, which also contained a little horn, having the exact same description as in the first vision? Clearly Daniel had been troubled by the little horn of the fourth beast, gave himself to prayer and fasting that he might be given understanding of that little horn, and is answered from heaven with this second vision, where he is explicitly told that the little horn grew out from the kingdom of Greece.


Edit: In this way of reference to Antiochus IV as being the little horn and then later Daniel tells of the king of the north we could place him as to the verses from Daniel 11:36-45. Then when come to Michael standing up at this time in chapter 12.

And if we look at the ending of chapter 7 we fine that this fourth kingdom shall devour the whole earth, now that maybe in reference to the 'land of Israel' where he would tread down and speak great words against the most holy, and think to change the times and laws and given a time and times and the divinding of time [1260] all of which could be said of Antiochus IV. Now i'm not saying that the book of Revelation is refering to the same, but Antiochus would be a type.

[TheForgiven]

But tell me, why would ch. 7 end with Daniel saying that he was going to continue to keep his thoughts on the little horn, and then in ch. 8 start by explaining that this was a second vision in line with the first, which also contained a little horn, having the exact same description as in the first vision? Clearly Daniel had been troubled by the little horn of the fourth beast, gave himself to prayer and fasting that he might be given understanding of that little horn, and is answered from heaven with this second vision, where he is explicitly told that the little horn grew out from the kingdom of Greece.


Edit: In this way of reference to Antiochus IV as being the little horn and then later Daniel tells of the king of the north we could place him as to the verses from Daniel 11:36-45. Then when come to Michael standing up at this time in chapter 12.

And if we look at the ending of chapter 7 we fine that this fourth kingdom shall devour the whole earth, now that maybe in reference to the 'land of Israel' where he would tread down and speak great words against the most holy, and think to change the times and laws and given a time and times and the divinding of time [1260] all of which could be said of Antiochus IV. Now i'm not saying that the book of Revelation is refering to the same, but Antiochus would be a type.

If you read chapter 7, and then chapter 8, you will note that he had two visions. In my opinion, the 2nd vision in chapter 8 was a detailed explanation of chapter 7's vision, only in chapter 8, his focus was on the kingdom of Greece which gives way to the small horn. In chapter 11, we see even more information given on the little horn of the kingdom of Greece. But in chapter 12, we see the Angel giving giving detail about the horn from the 4th Beast.

There are two little horns:

1. One which came up from the four horns of the "He Goat", which is the same kingdom represented by the 3rd Beast being leopard with four heads and two wings.

2. One that subdues three larger horns of the 4th Beast; this horn also overcomes the Saints.

Thus, the horn in chapter 7 is from the kingdom of Greece, as explained by this verse:

Daniel 8:

1 And the male goat is the kingdom of Greece. The large horn that is between its eyes is the first king [Alexander the Great]. 22 As for the broken horn [Antiochus IV] and the four that stood up in its place, four kingdoms shall arise out of that nation, but not with its power.
23 “ And in the latter time of their kingdom,
When the transgressors have reached their fullness,
A king shall arise,
Having fierce features,
Who understands sinister schemes.
24 His power shall be mighty, but not by his own power;
He shall destroy fearfully,
And shall prosper and thrive;
He shall destroy the mighty, and also the holy people.
25 “ Through his cunning
He shall cause deceit to prosper under his rule;[c]
And he shall exalt himself in his heart.
He shall destroy many in their prosperity.
He shall even rise against the Prince of princes;
But he shall be broken without human means.[d]
26 “ And the vision of the evenings and mornings
Which was told is true;

Thus, Daniel 8 is primarily about Greece.

Now, getting back to the initial vision in chapter 7, we saw the initial vision that explains the entire captivity of Daniel's people. It's the 4th beast and it's 11th horn, or horn that subdues three prior horns, that gives him curiosity.

‘ The fourth beast [Rome] shall be
A fourth kingdom on earth,
Which shall be different from all other kingdoms[Babylon, Medes/Persians/Greeks],
And shall devour the whole earth,
Trample it and break it in pieces.
24 The ten horns are ten kings
Who shall arise from this kingdom.
And another shall rise after them[Vespasian];
He shall be different from the first ones,
And shall subdue three kings.[Galba/Otho/Vitelius]
25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High,
Shall persecute the saints of the Most High,
And shall intend to change times and law.
Then the saints shall be given into his hand
For a time and times and half a time.
26 ‘ But the court shall be seated,
And they shall take away his dominion,
To consume and destroy it forever.
27 Then the kingdom and dominion,
And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven,
Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High.
His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom,
And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’[Church]

Hope this helps.

Joe

[gilgal]

I'm a futurist and believe in a literal fulfillment of the book of Revelation. Yes there are lots of symbolism but Jesus' second coming is literal. Of course he's had many comings such as Genesis 18, 19 and elsewhere it says the Lord's visitation but Jesus will come in his flesh with power and glory.

But coming back to the subject of the revelation of the beast and the anti-christ, I think in time it will be revealed. The Royal families are represented by Royal emblems and coat of arms. If you look at some coat of arms it has the image of a dragon, unicorn, lion...which hint to prophecies of the bible. So I think it will be known when it's time.

[Beck]

If you read chapter 7, and then chapter 8, you will note that he had two visions. In my opinion, the 2nd vision in chapter 8 was a detailed explanation of chapter 7's vision, only in chapter 8, his focus was on the kingdom of Greece which gives way to the small horn. In chapter 11, we see even more information given on the little horn of the kingdom of Greece. But in chapter 12, we see the Angel giving giving detail about the horn from the 4th Beast.

There are two little horns:

1. One which came up from the four horns of the "He Goat", which is the same kingdom represented by the 3rd Beast being leopard with four heads and two wings.

2. One that subdues three larger horns of the 4th Beast; this horn also overcomes the Saints.

Thus, the horn in chapter 7 is from the kingdom of Greece, as explained by this verse:



Thus, Daniel 8 is primarily about Greece.

Now, getting back to the initial vision in chapter 7, we saw the initial vision that explains the entire captivity of Daniel's people. It's the 4th beast and it's 11th horn, or horn that subdues three prior horns, that gives him curiosity.



Hope this helps.

Joe

Who then are the ten kings of that kingdom if it's Rome? Would you also count Vespasian as one of the ten or the eleventh?

1. Augustus
2. Tiberius
3. Caligula
4. Claudius
5. Nero

6. Galba
7. Otho
8. Vitellius

9. Vespasian
10. Titus
11. Domitian


Even if we count Julius Caesar, Vepasian would have been one of the ten.

1Julius Caesars
2Augustus
3Tiberius
4Caligula
5Claudius
6Nero
7Galba
8Otho
9Vitellius
10Vespasian
11Titus
12Domitian