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  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    The Church is what Jesus set out to establish.

    The New Jerusalem is a spiritual picture of the Church as it was established by the 1st century remnant of Israel; otherwise known as the 144,000 sealed. The great multitude that no one could count, appearing as a sea of glass, are the nations who are depicted via the vision as entering into the assembly of God; this kingdom is recognized as the Church.

    NOW, take this literal approach, and convert it spiritually, and you will see how the Church exists in both heaven and on earth. In heaven, where abides those who have died, and on earth where those who are being conformed for entrance into the kingdom.

    "waters of life"; that is, the Holy Spirit.

    Now I understand that sin seems so prevailing in the world, thus giving us the indication or allusion that the Holy Spirit does not exist. But if you want proof of His existence, look inside of yourself. How do you feel when you commit a sin? Do you not feel heart-stricken, or disturbed in heart and spirit? If so, then trust, by faith, that the Spirit of God is instructing you, and convicting you of sin.

    Thus, the Church is the spiritual kingdom of Israel, and the Israel that is begotten of God. This kingdom was built by the works of the Apostles, and their 1st century disciples who were biologically Israeli........ Thus, the meaning of the New Jerusalem becomes clear; it's a spiritual vision of the Church as established by the first century Saints within Israel (geographical). And we are those who enter into the gates of the kingdom they built. This is the kingdom that was promised by Christ; and we are their converts.
    Just to be clear let me say that I do believe that Jesus intended to form the church IF what is meant by church is assembly or congregation of called ones that were sealed by God's holy breath in the first century. I do NOT believe that the church that Jesus established continued ON THIS EARTH after the 1st century. I currently believe the 'church', if we like calling Jesus' Ekklesia that despite how confusing and misleading the use of that term can be, was "redeeemed from the Earth" and has since been clothed with immortality and have been reigning with Jesus.
    What is known TODAY as the church in my understanding is NOT a continuation of what Jesus established and redeemed from the Earth back then.

    As far as the Breath of God existing and being active, we must I believe look to scripture to see how God has used it in the past to understand how it MAY be being used currently. We know that Joel prophesied about an 'outpouring' of God's Holy Breath that of course took place in the first century. Prior to that time there was no massive outpouring though God often gave His Breath to select individuals from the the elders of Israel, the Judges, the Kings of Israel, the prophets of old, as well as Jesus himself.
    I say all that to say that there is no reason to believe that the same that was true prior to the outpouring of God's Breath that took place in the first century generation is true for generations after that time. In other words, god can give the gift of Holy Breath to anyone He chooses at the time or times of His choosing be it now, 200 years ago, for decades from now. BUT we have no basis in scripture to believe that there exists an organization on EARTH TODAY that has been promised this gift.

    As for us, I believe that our hope lies in one day being given citizenship in the Kingdom. As opposed to being a part of Jesus' Bride, I see it as more likely that we instead are represented by the invited guests at the banquet (wedding feast of the lamb).
    Last edited by throwback; 05-02-2011 at 11:14 AM.

  2. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twospirits View Post
    Hi Throwback, welcome to Biblewheel I hope you find your stay here pleasant. I have a quick question, you say you believe Christ came in the 1st century, does this mean you see Acts 1:11 fulfilled at that time? (70 A.D.) as preterists hold? Thanks--

    God bless---Twospirits
    Thanks for the well wishes.
    I actually (at this point) see no other explanation than Jesus having literally returning from the sky just as he ascended prior to Pentecost.

  3. #13
    Throwback wrote,

    I actually (at this point) see no other explanation than Jesus having literally returning from the sky just as he ascended prior to Pentecost.
    The reason I asked that question was because of what you stated here:

    So what I am proposing is:
    1. That there is a resurrection, a bodily one at that, that is to be a future occurance.

    2. That Jesus reigns with his saints right now, but this world is not yet a part of the reign of the kingdom of Heaven.

    3. This world will one day become a part of the Reign of the Kingdom.

    4. Our hope as well as the hope of the ancients is to be resurrected to life under the reign of the Kingdom here on earth where we will live for endless ages with access to trees of life.

    5. No one knows when the Kingdom will come to this Earth.

    **6. There was a physical resurrection of the saints that took place in the 1st century at or around Jesus' parousia.***
    You state that the kingdom will be here on earth at some future time. This can only come about "with the coming of Christ." If he already came in the 1st century how can this fulfillment come about? You cannot have a "kingdom" coming without its "King" (Christ) coming also. See the problem here? Can you explain your meaning of the coming kingdom to earth a little further?

    God bless---Twospirits
    Last edited by Twospirits; 04-29-2011 at 11:14 AM.
    "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).

  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twospirits View Post
    The reason I asked that question was because of what you stated here:



    You state that the kingdom will be here on earth at some future time. This can only come about "with the coming of Christ." If he already came in the 1st century how can this fulfillment come about? You cannot have a "kingdom" coming without its "King" (Christ) coming also. See the problem here? Can you explain your meaning of the coming kingdom to earth a little further?

    God bless---Twospirits
    To be clearer, what I was trying to imply was that Earth will at that point be a part of the Kingdom that is already in existence today. At that point it will be "on Earth as it is in Heaven". Why is it that people seem to be under the impression that the Kingdom is limited to Earth?
    So in summary I advocated that Jesus came in the 1st century in Judgment and to collect the elect to be taken with him to help him administer the Kingdom. At some point in the future, our world will be a part of (that is subjected to) the reign of the kingdom of Heaven. That however has not yet happenned.

  5. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by throwback View Post
    Just to be clear let me say that I do believe that Jesus intended to form the church IF what is meant by church is assembly or congregation of called ones that were sealed by God's holy breath in the first century. I do NOT believe that the church that Jesus established continued ON THIS EARTH after the 1st century. I currently believe the 'church', if we like calling Jesus Ekklesia that despite how confusing and misleading the use of that term can be, was "redeeemed from the Earth" and have since been clothed with immortality where the individuals who make up the 'church' now and have been reigning with Jesus. What is know TODAY as the church in my understanding is NOT a continuation of what Jesus established and redeemed from the Earth back then.

    As far as the Breath of God existing and being active, we must I believe look to scripture to see how God has used it in the past to understand how it MAY be being used currently. We know that Joel prophesied about an 'outpouring' of God's Holy Breath that of course took place in the first century. Prior to that time there was no massive outpouring though God often gave His Breath to select individuals from the the elders of Israel, the Judges, the Kings of Israel, the prophets of old, as well as Jesus himself.

    I say all this to say that there is no reason to believe that the same that was true prior to the outpouring of God's Breath that took place in the first century generation is true for generations after that time. In other words, god can give the gift of Holy Breath to anyone He chooses at the time or times of His choosing be it now, 200 years ago, for decades from now. BUT we have no basis in scripture to believe that there exists an organization on EARTH TODAY that has been promised this gift.

    As for us, I believe that our hope lies in one day being given citizenship in the Kingdom. As opposed to being a part of Jesus' Bride, I see it as more likely that we instead are represented by the invited guests at the banquet (wedding feast of the lamb).
    Interesting points my friend. Tell me what you think of these two examples:

    Luke 17:

    20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’[d] For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.”


    ang again:

    John 4:

    19 The woman said to Him, “Sir, I perceive that You are a prophet. 20 Our fathers worshiped on this mountain, and you Jews say that in Jerusalem is the place where one ought to worship.” 21 Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. 24 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” 25 The woman said to Him, “I know that Messiah is coming” (who is called Christ). “When He comes, He will tell us all things.”
    26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am He.”


    So as you can see, the Kingdom that was promised is not a physical kingdom with dependant on bricks, stones, and a physical throne, for us to worship in His Kingdom. The Kingdom of God is a body of believers filled with the Inspiritation (Spirit) of Christ, who teaches us the ways of righteousness.

    If we teach that Jesus will one day restore a physical kingdom, as is taught by those who teach of a physical 1000 year reign in Jerusalem, they are in error as shown above. John 4 tells us that is a Spirit, and expect all of us to worshiop Him accordingly (spiritually). This is exactly what the Church does; when we pray, fast, sing music, and express the righteous fruits of the Spirit, we are in fact, a spiritual people abiding in the Kingdom of Christ.

    Finally, as John 4:21 that nobody will ever travel to Jerusalem to worship God, or Jesus (who are the same); for God is Spirit, and that is How he demands to be worshipped.

    In conclusion, I hope you can see that there is no coming kingdom; it's all around us, in our hearts, and in our minds; the kingdom based on the word of faith; Jesus as Lord, and His resurrection, through which we too are raised to the newness of life through our belief in the resurrection of the dead, and that He is our Lord, thus denoting our submission to His divine Laws; laws that are not written on paper, but imprinted on our hearts through HIS SPIRIT who dwells within us.

    I hope you will soon see this truth my friend. Those who teach of a coming physical kingdom are going against scripture.

    God bless.

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  6. #16
    Throwback wrote,

    To be clearer, what I was trying to imply was that Earth will at that point be a part of the Kingdom that is already in existence today. At that point it will be "on Earth as it is in Heaven".
    I understand that the kingdom exists in heaven now, but my question is how does this all come about? How does the kingdom AND Christ come to earth with Christ reigning forever?

    God bless---Twospirits
    "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away" (Rev. 21:4).

  7. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheForgiven View Post
    So as you can see, the Kingdom that was promised is not a physical kingdom with dependant on bricks, stones, and a physical throne, for us to worship in His Kingdom. The Kingdom of God is a body of believers filled with the Inspiritation (Spirit) of Christ, who teaches us the ways of righteousness.

    If we teach that Jesus will one day restore a physical kingdom, as is taught by those who teach of a physical 1000 year reign in Jerusalem, they are in error as shown above. John 4 tells us that is a Spirit, and expect all of us to worshiop Him accordingly (spiritually). This is exactly what the Church does; when we pray, fast, sing music, and express the righteous fruits of the Spirit, we are in fact, a spiritual people abiding in the Kingdom of Christ.

    Finally, as John 4:21 that nobody will ever travel to Jerusalem to worship God, or Jesus (who are the same); for God is Spirit, and that is How he demands to be worshipped.

    In conclusion, I hope you can see that there is no coming kingdom; it's all around us, in our hearts, and in our minds; the kingdom based on the word of faith; Jesus as Lord, and His resurrection, through which we too are raised to the newness of life through our belief in the resurrection of the dead, and that He is our Lord, thus denoting our submission to His divine Laws; laws that are not written on paper, but imprinted on our hearts through HIS SPIRIT who dwells within us.

    I hope you will soon see this truth my friend. Those who teach of a coming physical kingdom are going against scripture.

    God bless.

    Joe
    Maybe I wasn't clear. I am not advocating that a physical kningdom will one day be established. I am saying that the Kingdom of Heaven spoken of in Daniel was established by God and He give the throne to His Anointed One, Jesus of Nazareth who now reigns and has been reigning for nearly 2000 years. That kingdom is not a worldly government, is not of this system of things, nor has its reign yet been extended to this world. This world is awaiting the reign of that kingdom to be extended to this world. It is apparent that we agree that the Kingdom IS NOT a physical kingdom like the kingdoms of this world. The church, however, is in many ways a physical earthly kingdom, but that's a whole other can of worms......

    The Kingdom is MORE than the body of believers, it is the very extension of the reign of God's Anointed One which of course includes the saints as well as the heavenly messengers as well. In Luke 4, Jesus was not telling the Jewish leaders that the Kingdom was within THEM as in in THEIR hearts for THEY were a "brood of vipers". He was saying the kingdom was within them in reference to the fact that HE, the king, was in their midst.

    Now to discuss the worship of God and Jesus' proclamation that true worshipers were then and would from then on worship God in spirit and in truth as opposed to doing so at some physical location. We must first understand what worship is and how scripture defines it. Worship, in scripture involves bowing down to or paying homage to another. Scripture gives us examples of how God wants this "homage" to be paid to Him. We are told that loving the Lord with our all and loving our neighbors as we love ourselves is what God wants, we're also told that presenting one's body as a living sacrifice holy and acceptable to God is one's reasonable act or worship, and finally we know that the whole of man is to honor God and keep His ways.

    In summation, it can be said that we worship God in spirit and in truth by practicing right ways (righteousness). The "laws" of righteousness are written on the hearts of men by man's creator and we honor Him by "keeping" that law.

  8. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twospirits View Post
    I understand that the kingdom exists in heaven now, but my question is how does this all come about? How does the kingdom AND Christ come to earth with Christ reigning forever?

    God bless---Twospirits
    To be honest, I do not know how it will come about. I BELIEVE that Jesus and his Bride will at some future point come to this world, but I cannot very very dogmatic about how that will happen because the scriptures do not specify enough info for me to act like I have all the answers my friend.

  9. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by throwback View Post
    Maybe I wasn't clear. I am not advocating that a physical kningdom will one day be established. I am saying that the Kingdom of Heaven spoken of in Daniel was established by God and He give the throne to His Anointed One, Jesus of Nazareth who now reigns and has been reigning for nearly 2000 years. That kingdom is not a worldly government, is not of this system of things, nor has its reign yet been extended to this world. This world is awaiting the reign of that kingdom to be extended to this world. It is apparent that we agree that the Kingdom IS NOT a physical kingdom like the kingdoms of this world. The church, however, is in many ways a physical earthly kingdom, but that's a whole other can of worms......

    The Kingdom is MORE than the body of believers, it is the very extension of the reign of God's Anointed One which of course includes the saints as well as the heavenly messengers as well. In Luke 4, Jesus was not telling the Jewish leaders that the Kingdom was within THEM as in in THEIR hearts for THEY were a "brood of vipers". He was saying the kingdom was within them in reference to the fact that HE, the king, was in their midst.

    Now to discuss the worship of God and Jesus' proclamation that true worshipers were then and would from then on worship God in spirit and in truth as opposed to doing so at some physical location. We must first understand what worship is and how scripture defines it. Worship, in scripture involves bowing down to or paying homage to another. Scripture gives us examples of how God wants this "homage" to be paid to Him. We are told that loving the Lord with our all and loving our neighbors as we love ourselves is what God wants, we're also told that presenting one's body as a living sacrifice holy and acceptable to God is one's reasonable act or worship, and finally we know that the whole of man is to honor God and keep His ways.

    In summation, it can be said that we worship God in spirit and in truth by practicing right ways (righteousness). The "laws" of righteousness are written on the hearts of men by man's creator and we honor Him by "keeping" that law.
    Well then, we are not that different, and I will add that you are certainly well on your way my friend.

    Now about the kingdom not yet arriving on this earth, I do not see how you've arrived at this conclusion. But I'm more than willing to learn how it is you came to this belief.

    In Luke 4, Jesus was telling them that the kingdom would not come physically; that is to say, it would not be one visible to the open eye in the form of a city, buildings, a temple, etc. It would be a spiritual kingdom. Now some have argued against this idea by stating as you suggested, and Jesus wasn't saying that the kingdom of God is within them, seeing that they were not yet saved. Jesus was showing that He, who was among them, would be the kingdom itself, implying the days when His spirit would be within them. Christ explains this to the Apostles in the Gospel of John when He says, "on that day, you will know that I am in the Father, and the Father is in Me, and I will be in you...." That is the kingdom that He proposed to build.

    The Old Covenant was a kingdom established on physical standards, which was to paint a picture of what and how the true Kingdom, born of God, would be. Time would fail me if I were to discuss every aspect of the Law in how this is fulfilled in the Church.

    Now there's one aspect of what you believe I understand. The Power of the Holy Spirit, as was experienced on Pentecost (tongues, healing, and other miracles) no longer comes to us as it did to them. That was a necessary attribute required to enable simple common people (farmers, fishermen, tax collectors, etc.) to be filled with testimony. God was using them to "confirm" the Covenant by the diverse gifts of the Holy Spirit. Remember, the Holy Spirit is not just the gift itself, but in the first century, the Holy Spirit empowered them with gifts from the Holy Spirit. Those gifts had one purpose; to edify His Church, and to offer external testimony to the validity of their message; particularly to Gentile nations who were not accustomed to Jewish Law and/or tradition, and who were more acquainted with foreign gods and practices. But you see? The Apostles completed their testimony, and fulfilled the spreading of the "Good News" to all the inhabited earth:

    1 Timothy 3:16
    And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.


    It was He who charged the Apostles to preach the gospels to the inhabited world of the time:

    Mark 16:15
    And He said to them, 'Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.


    Through their message, the Gentiles were blessed by receiving the blessings of forgiveness found in Christ's Kingdom:

    Galatians 3:8
    And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel to Abraham beforehand, saying, 'In you all the nations shall be blessed.'


    And so, as you can see, the Gentiles were converted to Christianity through the message and works of the Apostles, and those sent by the Apostles. When their job was completed, then came to pass the saying by John in Revelation:

    Revelation 11:15
    Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!'


    The purpose of spreading the Gospel was so that God could be in all who believed in Him; not just the Jews, but the Gentiles as well. This mystery was fulfilled in the first century, as John also explains in Revelation, as well as Paul:

    Colossians 1:27
    To them God willed to make known what are the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles: which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

    1 Timothy 3:16
    And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.

    Revelation 10:7
    but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the mystery of God would be finished, as He declared to His servants the prophets.


    God's ultimate purpose was to being all races to Himself, using His elect from Israel as the foundation of this Kingdom, and the Gentiles being added to their number day-by-day. When all was completed, the finished result was a beautiful spiritual kingdom describing the purity, size, and equaled perfection of the Church. In her is found true Jews, born not on the basis of flesh, nor of blood type, but of God through our Lord Jesus.

    In conclusion, the Kingdom of God is not something you await; for it is within you. The Kingdom of God began as a simple tree that had been cut down in the first century, leaving only a small stump. This "holy seed" who also represented the "stump" was Christ. As more and more souls were added, what began as a small stump, turned into the largest tree in the world; the tree of life. You do not have to wait to be in Jerusalem my friend; if you are found in Christ, you are already there, although you are there by earth standards. After you've passed out of this world, leaving aside your earthly tent, you will then (if you are found worthy) inherit the eternal abode, in the heavenly places, where the Saints reign with the Messiah to this very day. And this Kingdom shall have no end, from one new full-moon, to the next; the kingdom that exists now continues to endure forever:

    Isaiah 66:23
    And it shall come to pass That from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me,' says the LORD.


    The Lord's kingdom abide with us, both now, and forever. Amen!

    Joe
    Israel is more than just a race; it is more than just a nation; it is the people of God, from faith, by faith, and only faith. Those who assemble in the name of Christ Jesus, embrance Israel because they are Israel

  10. #20
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    quote by TheForgiven:

    In conclusion, the Kingdom of God is not something you await; for it is within you. The Kingdom of God began as a simple tree that had been cut down in the first century, leaving only a small stump. This "holy seed" who also represented the "stump" was Christ. As more and more souls were added, what began as a small stump, turned into the largest tree in the world; the tree of life. You do not have to wait to be in Jerusalem my friend; if you are found in Christ, you are already there, although you are there by earth standards. After you've passed out of this world, leaving aside your earthly tent, you will then (if you are found worthy) inherit the eternal abode, in the heavenly places, where the Saints reign with the Messiah to this very day. And this Kingdom shall have no end, from one new full-moon, to the next; the kingdom that exists now continues to endure forever:
    This reply may in fact spark a whole new thread but based on your reply I am assuming that you feel that at death, a part of us leaves this existence to go on to another existense as opposed to our entirety being truly dead. Is that so?

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